Author Topic: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent  (Read 11250 times)

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Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2017, 02:08:11 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Lonzo Ball is my pick at #1 if we get it.

 Can't miss prospect. A basketball Genius. These guys don't come along often. Fultz Scmultz. Fultz is a big time scorer on a bottom feeder team.

 Ball is a winner. And to boot he has Steph Curry range. Great kid. Really Coachable.

 How can a Jason Kidd type player with unlimited range fail in the NBA? He can't. Only injuries will stop him.

 If it's not Ball I want Jackson, Taytum, Giles.
 

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2017, 02:24:47 PM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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I really don't get all this Futz anointing here.Anybody watch him play or just reading reports, box scores and highlight mixes.

 He has the skills no doubt, and maybe he will eventually prove deserving of the number one pick in this draft, but right now I don't see the heart, will to win and the ability or willingness to make others around him better. Not even close to being a leader yet, unlike Ball who checks ALL of the above boxes.

Last night vs Cal and New Years Night vs rival WSh State, he folded like a cheap suit in crunch time. He couldn't finish on two drives late in the game in both games.he also threw up (maybe both ways), by hoisting an uncontested WAY off the mark three.
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I'd like to see him at crunch time in more close games before I rate him higher than Ball

To be fair, Ball plays alongside another high lotto pick in TJ Leaf. Fultz literally has zero help aside from a 6 foot sophomore guard that can shoot a little bit. But we are in luck because they play in the same conference! So Feb 4th, will be an interesting day as UCLA and Washington faces off.

Keep an eye on Fultz's movement when the ball is not in his hands (where it really should be if he is that good a player and his roster sucks). His movement is almost non-existent, and he looks very disinterred.

Well I don't see much of this that you're talking about, but maybe it's there and I just have to go back and watch.

He technically has had to go up against 5 guys every night, no one in his team is a playmaker besides him and it pretty much seems like there's no better option than to give him the ball, but that will get predictable in any level of basketball when he does not have freakish physical tools (LeBron, KD) but rather his deceptive handles and pace of play (Harden) and with no second or third option, you'll find that off ball movement will seldomly be rewarded with 5 guys looking out for you and you alone on this Washington team. I think the lack of a sense of urgency that you are seeing is him having Ben Simmons syndrome, not caring about close college games where he constantly has to carry scrubs.

I think he'll turn it up when he goes up against Lonzo, it's going to be a game that may impact the draft board so there's incentive for both to turn up, if Fultz folds here then I'll be worried but again we have to look at the context. They play each other twice this year.

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2017, 02:35:44 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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 Lonzo Ball is my pick at #1 if we get it.

 Can't miss prospect. A basketball Genius. These guys don't come along often. Fultz Scmultz. Fultz is a big time scorer on a bottom feeder team.

Ball is a winner. And to boot he has Steph Curry range. Great kid. Really Coachable.

How can a Jason Kidd type player with unlimited range fail in the NBA? He can't. Only injuries will stop him.

If it's not Ball I want Jackson, Taytum, Giles.
This all seems like an overeaction. Fultz is #1 just about everywhere you look. I dont understand why youve dismissed him as the 5th prospect at best.

Ball has a great skillset but he lacks athleticism and a handle. His shot is unorthodox and its not out of the realm of possibility that his hot shooting is something of a fluke. Justice Winslow shot 42% from 3 at Duke.

If he cant provide a threat off the dribble and he isnt a lights out shooter its going to be hard to justify handing him the keys to your offense and he will operate like a late career Rondo once Rondo became afraid to drive to the rim but got less horrible at shooting.

I dont expect Ball to fail. Id say its extremely unlikely. I havent watched enough of him to make a really good judgement here, but its certainly possible that he does fail.
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Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2017, 02:43:47 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Lonzo Ball is my pick at #1 if we get it.

 Can't miss prospect. A basketball Genius. These guys don't come along often. Fultz Scmultz. Fultz is a big time scorer on a bottom feeder team.

Ball is a winner. And to boot he has Steph Curry range. Great kid. Really Coachable.

How can a Jason Kidd type player with unlimited range fail in the NBA? He can't. Only injuries will stop him.

If it's not Ball I want Jackson, Taytum, Giles.
This all seems like an overeaction. Fultz is #1 just about everywhere you look. I dont understand why youve dismissed him as the 5th prospect at best.

Ball has a great skillset but he lacks athleticism and a handle. His shot is unorthodox and its not out of the realm of possibility that his hot shooting is something of a fluke. Justice Winslow shot 42% from 3 at Duke.

If he cant provide a threat off the dribble and he isnt a lights out shooter its going to be hard to justify handing him the keys to your offense and he will operate like a late career Rondo once Rondo became afraid to drive to the rim but got less horrible at shooting.

I dont expect Ball to fail. Id say its extremely unlikely. I havent watched enough of him to make a really good judgement here, but its certainly possible that he does fail.



 Lacks athleticism and handle? No. And No.

 He routinely gets chase down blocks from behind, ala LeBron.

 He has road runner speed. Ultra fast in the open court. He blocks big men in the post from behind.

 You don't avg 8 assists per game without a handle. It could be a little tighter, but trust me he can be a primary ball handler in the league.

 I just don't like the Fultz pick for the Celtics. That's my opinion.
 

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2017, 02:53:38 PM »

Offline Smartacus

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I think if you want to have a system guy you take Fultz. If you want a young running team that can run a vet team out the gym you take Ball. Examples

Wolves take Ball #1
C's take Fultz #1
Suns take Ball #1
Heat take Fultz #1
Mavs take Ball ...
Lakers take Fultz ...
Nuggets take Ball...
76ers take which ever one needs surgery and will sit out his rookie year.

I've been kicking around this same idea. TP Csfan. There are some situations where you'd take Ball but ours is not one of them.

Only quip is I have the Mavs taking Fultz since they don't have the talent to surround Ball as of yet. Harrison Barnes and Wesley Mathews aren't going to emerge as the second coming of the showtime Lakers any time soon. Better they take Fultz who's no slouch in the open floor himself but can still generate shots at a high level for himself.

Nuggets might also not want Ball since they already get a fair bit of distributing from Jokic and Jamaal Murray.

I'd also push back a bit on the idea that some have given that Fultz is putting up empty stats on a bottom feeder. We weren't saying that when he was torching the international competition on team USA last year.

Maybe Fultz wouldn't be quite this dynamic if he was on Kentucky or Duke but it's hard to look at what he's done and not think he'll be able to replicate this at the NBA level. He scores from anywhere and everywhere and has the length to finish over most players he'd be matched up against at the next level.

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2017, 03:00:38 PM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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 Lonzo Ball is my pick at #1 if we get it.

 Can't miss prospect. A basketball Genius. These guys don't come along often. Fultz Scmultz. Fultz is a big time scorer on a bottom feeder team.

Ball is a winner. And to boot he has Steph Curry range. Great kid. Really Coachable.

How can a Jason Kidd type player with unlimited range fail in the NBA? He can't. Only injuries will stop him.

If it's not Ball I want Jackson, Taytum, Giles.
This all seems like an overeaction. Fultz is #1 just about everywhere you look. I dont understand why youve dismissed him as the 5th prospect at best.

Ball has a great skillset but he lacks athleticism and a handle. His shot is unorthodox and its not out of the realm of possibility that his hot shooting is something of a fluke. Justice Winslow shot 42% from 3 at Duke.

If he cant provide a threat off the dribble and he isnt a lights out shooter its going to be hard to justify handing him the keys to your offense and he will operate like a late career Rondo once Rondo became afraid to drive to the rim but got less horrible at shooting.

I dont expect Ball to fail. Id say its extremely unlikely. I havent watched enough of him to make a really good judgement here, but its certainly possible that he does fail.

If Ball ends up in Miami, he will most likely fail. He needs quality shooting around him to be effective.

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2017, 03:02:47 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I'm worried about Ball's ability to create separation off the dribble. For NBA guards, I think the most important things are the ability to hit 3's and get into the paint off the dribble. Fultz does both, I'm not sure Ball does.
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Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2017, 03:17:45 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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I'm worried about Ball's ability to create separation off the dribble. For NBA guards, I think the most important things are the ability to hit 3's and get into the paint off the dribble. Fultz does both, I'm not sure Ball does.



 Well he can already can three's from 30 feet with ease. Your going to have to respect his shot. He will figure out how to blow by his man at the next level.

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2017, 03:19:44 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I'm worried about Ball's ability to create separation off the dribble. For NBA guards, I think the most important things are the ability to hit 3's and get into the paint off the dribble. Fultz does both, I'm not sure Ball does.



 Well he can already can three's from 30 feet with ease. Your going to have to respect his shot. He will figure out how to blow by his man at the next level.
Yeah, I'm worried that teams will guard him closely, which could negate his shot (since he has a weird release he needs extra space to get it off). If he can't get by his man without a ball screen then I'd much rather have Fultz.

Fultz on the other hand, has better length (6'10 wingspan to 6'7 wingspan for Ball), is also an excellent shooter (41% from 3) and can create better off the bounce.

Fultz hasn't shown off the same vision as Ball, but Ball is playing with much better players/shooters so passing is much more effective for Lonzo.
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Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2017, 03:22:03 PM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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I'm worried about Ball's ability to create separation off the dribble. For NBA guards, I think the most important things are the ability to hit 3's and get into the paint off the dribble. Fultz does both, I'm not sure Ball does.



 Well he can already can three's from 30 feet with ease. Your going to have to respect his shot. He will figure out how to blow by his man at the next level.

Yeah, I'm still waiting on Smart to learn this... and Roadrunner Rozier too.

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2017, 03:29:48 PM »

Offline coffee425

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I should've made this a poll..
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Even at the end of the game, we lined up in different formation that he hadn't seen and he called out our play before I got the ball. I heard him calling it out. -John Wall on Brad Stevens

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2017, 03:35:12 PM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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I'm starting to think that this draft is almost too stacked...

Ain't no such thing when you're holding the #1 lottery position by 2 games.  :)

Amen to that brother!  ;D

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2017, 03:37:08 PM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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I'm not as convinced that Ball's game will transfer to the NBA as easily as Fultz. Ball also has a very strange looking release on his jumper and I wonder how often he will get space against NBA-caliber defenders to complete shots.

Ball is the superior driver, but not by a lot.

I personally don't even see the comparison. Fultz is the #1 pick, even if a team has a CP3/Curry/Wall starting PG. Fultz is such a complete player, and his ability to get off quick turnaround jump shots, stop on a dime and get a square shot off, and just having such a perfect looking release every time just screams direct translation in to the NBA. His game is a combination of Curry/Wall. Not at all as skilled of a driver as Wall, and obviously not as deadly accurate from anywhere on the court as Curry, but he possesses both skill-sets and looks very smooth and in control while doing it.

You know that Philly is drooling over this guy. I'm sure they consider Ball a fine consolation prize too. My hope is they end up with the #3 or 4 pick, where they have no guarantee of getting either player. I would love to see them with that #3/4 pick, and the Lakers pick somewhere in the 6-8 range, and try to get both picks and maybe a future selection or also Okafor. We can then take Josh Jackson, Tatum or Giles, and have an insanely athletic and young rotation. Trade chips for days in 2017-2018 to make a consolidation type of trade. Hard not to be excited about this off-season. It's looking like a no-lose situation for the Celtics!

I think Philly should have genuine interest in Malik Monk at #4. Seems to be a perfect fit.

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2017, 03:51:16 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Unicorns are so hot right now.   So hot they should stick them in a space movie with J-Law and Pratt. 

Re: Fultz vs Ball... Traditional Talent vs Unicorn Talent
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2017, 10:42:51 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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I'm going with unicorns too.