Author Topic: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?  (Read 14478 times)

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Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2017, 03:58:17 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I still don't understand the premise of this.  Everything I read about the draft suggests there's multiple all-star prospects at the top of this draft with no clear separation.   Ford and Pelton just had an article the other day suggesting there were as many as 8 guys in the running for the #1 pick this year.  Why would you trade two of those guys for one of those guys?

Perhaps you want a point guard to play with Embiid, there are two franchise PGs in the draft, it has to be someone who can start on Day 1, and you definitely don't want another center.

Not saying it's likely, but that's one scenario.
I get that, but aren't like 5 of the top 8 players guards?  They don't need a playmaker.  They need shooting.  Seems like Malik Monk should be available to them at one of those picks.

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2017, 04:22:22 PM »

Offline byennie

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I still don't understand the premise of this.  Everything I read about the draft suggests there's multiple all-star prospects at the top of this draft with no clear separation.   Ford and Pelton just had an article the other day suggesting there were as many as 8 guys in the running for the #1 pick this year.  Why would you trade two of those guys for one of those guys?

Perhaps you want a point guard to play with Embiid, there are two franchise PGs in the draft, it has to be someone who can start on Day 1, and you definitely don't want another center.

Not saying it's likely, but that's one scenario.
I get that, but aren't like 5 of the top 8 players guards?  They don't need a playmaker.  They need shooting.  Seems like Malik Monk should be available to them at one of those picks.

Could be, but I think the consensus right now is that e.g. Futz is far ahead of Monk.

Futz/Simmons/Embiid could be the difference between a 3 All-Star core and two more prospects on the roster.


Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2017, 04:36:28 PM »

Offline Vegas Green

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No because we need proven players (we need another All Star).  Getting another 2 young players to go with our 3 First round draft picks from last year moves us farther away from a title.   

This

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2017, 04:41:24 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Last year everyone wanted the Cs to consolidate picks and draft up. Now its, " Lets trade down for quantity. Make up your minds.to

I dont see Ainge willing to give Stevens likely 5 rookies next year (2017 picks suggested here, Yabu, Zizac and Nader) while also having a 2nd year player in Brown and 3rd year players like Rozier and Mickey still on the team.

I think Danny keeps the number 1 pick and gets rid of some youth(Rozier, Yabu, Zizic, Young, Mickey) for bench vets on short contracts or he trades it plus youth for a superstar. But there is no way Ainge keeps that many, 7-8 inexperienced players while also trying to get the team to be more of a contender. Contenders dont have 8 players on their teams with lesd than 3 years experience. They just dont
Last year was a crappy draft this year is presumed to be a very strong draft.  Nothing really inconsistent in that line of reasoning.  For the reasons I put out there earlier in the thread there is no way I trade 1 for 4 and 8, but it isn't some weird logic.

Contenders often have a lot of young players on their roster.  The Spurs in 12/13 had 10 players with 4 or less years of experience (7 of which were 3 or less).  The 11/12 Thunder had 7 players with 3 or less years and Westbrook who was in year 4.  The Thunder were even younger the year before when they were in the WCF. 
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Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2017, 04:44:41 PM »

Offline konkmv

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If it is 3 and 6 and okafor or noel i would say yes

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2017, 04:51:16 PM »

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 To even consider this proposition I'd have to evaluate who would actually be available one through eight.

 I have to say I am interested one through thirteen.

 Fultz
 Ball
 Jackson
 Smith
 Taytum
 Monk
 Isaac
 Markkanen
 OG 1 Kanobi
 Fox
 Ntilikina (6'5" Greek Freak clone)
 Harry Giles
 Miles Bridges
 Ivan Rabb, he's ranked 15 but I like him too


 So your still going to get one of Ball, Jackson and Taytum.

 Plus one of Giles, Bridges, OG-1, Greek Freak, Fox,

 You'd have to consider that strongly.

 
 
 

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2017, 04:52:12 PM »

Offline Granath

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No. Absolutely not.

Statistically and historically the guy selected #1 has an overwhelming chance to be a star as compared to the 4th or 8th pick. While every draft is different, I'm a firm believer of playing the odds unless a real and specific case can be made to justify why we should buck the trend. I'm not seeing that case made thus far. In the NFL, when it comes to draft picks more = better. That's not true in a top-heavy league like the NBA. That's why the #1 pick is so valuable.

Moreover, the Cs have two overseas stashes that will be looking to make their way to the roster next year and the Cs already have a BUNDLE of draft picks stashed already. Roster space is already very tight and I don't see that easing up next year. We could have Yab, Zizic, #1 draft pick and perhaps even Nader on the roster next year. There's not much room for other rookies unless we're going to go into tank mode (which makes absolutely no sense). At this point more picks means less to the Cs than perhaps any other team in the NBA right now.

To move down the deal would have to be so totally unbeatable that you simply can't turn it town. Otherwise, you stay at #1, select a star and pare them with Brown to form the core of a team that can compete now and has potentially a championship window of a dozen years or so.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2017, 05:15:03 PM »

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No. Absolutely not.

Statistically and historically the guy selected #1 has an overwhelming chance to be a star as compared to the 4th or 8th pick. While every draft is different, I'm a firm believer of playing the odds unless a real and specific case can be made to justify why we should buck the trend. I'm not seeing that case made thus far. In the NFL, when it comes to draft picks more = better. That's not true in a top-heavy league like the NBA. That's why the #1 pick is so valuable.

Moreover, the Cs have two overseas stashes that will be looking to make their way to the roster next year and the Cs already have a BUNDLE of draft picks stashed already. Roster space is already very tight and I don't see that easing up next year. We could have Yab, Zizic, #1 draft pick and perhaps even Nader on the roster next year. There's not much room for other rookies unless we're going to go into tank mode (which makes absolutely no sense). At this point more picks means less to the Cs than perhaps any other team in the NBA right now.

To move down the deal would have to be so totally unbeatable that you simply can't turn it town. Otherwise, you stay at #1, select a star and pare them with Brown to form the core of a team that can compete now and has potentially a championship window of a dozen years or so.



 Irrelevant. This is the 2017 draft.

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2017, 05:17:02 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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No. Absolutely not.

Statistically and historically the guy selected #1 has an overwhelming chance to be a star as compared to the 4th or 8th pick. While every draft is different, I'm a firm believer of playing the odds unless a real and specific case can be made to justify why we should buck the trend. I'm not seeing that case made thus far. In the NFL, when it comes to draft picks more = better. That's not true in a top-heavy league like the NBA. That's why the #1 pick is so valuable.

Moreover, the Cs have two overseas stashes that will be looking to make their way to the roster next year and the Cs already have a BUNDLE of draft picks stashed already. Roster space is already very tight and I don't see that easing up next year. We could have Yab, Zizic, #1 draft pick and perhaps even Nader on the roster next year. There's not much room for other rookies unless we're going to go into tank mode (which makes absolutely no sense). At this point more picks means less to the Cs than perhaps any other team in the NBA right now.

To move down the deal would have to be so totally unbeatable that you simply can't turn it town. Otherwise, you stay at #1, select a star and pare them with Brown to form the core of a team that can compete now and has potentially a championship window of a dozen years or so.



 Irrelevant. This is the 2017 draft.

Which means what exactly?


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Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2017, 06:27:50 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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No. Absolutely not.

Statistically and historically the guy selected #1 has an overwhelming chance to be a star as compared to the 4th or 8th pick. While every draft is different, I'm a firm believer of playing the odds unless a real and specific case can be made to justify why we should buck the trend. I'm not seeing that case made thus far. In the NFL, when it comes to draft picks more = better. That's not true in a top-heavy league like the NBA. That's why the #1 pick is so valuable.

Moreover, the Cs have two overseas stashes that will be looking to make their way to the roster next year and the Cs already have a BUNDLE of draft picks stashed already. Roster space is already very tight and I don't see that easing up next year. We could have Yab, Zizic, #1 draft pick and perhaps even Nader on the roster next year. There's not much room for other rookies unless we're going to go into tank mode (which makes absolutely no sense). At this point more picks means less to the Cs than perhaps any other team in the NBA right now.

To move down the deal would have to be so totally unbeatable that you simply can't turn it town. Otherwise, you stay at #1, select a star and pare them with Brown to form the core of a team that can compete now and has potentially a championship window of a dozen years or so.



 Irrelevant. This is the 2017 draft.


Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2017, 08:25:00 PM »

Offline chambers

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Not only might there not be a lot of drop off between #1 and #4, the Celtics might value the guy who would be available at #4 as their #1 anyway. In that scenario there is no reason not to trade.

It's just too hard to say in a vacuum that you absolutely do or do not make that trade (unless trading the #1 pick for a star. Then the #1 absolutely has more value).

The thing is then the C's could be passing up on a future superstar in favor of guys that won't become as good as that #1 overall. We should want the absolute best for our team.

Agreed. But the best guy might get picked at #4. The Celtics could pick #1 and still be passing on a future superstar for a lesser player. While this is true most any year, it has a higher chance of happening this year than most because of the closeness of the talent in the top 4-7 players.

I'm not saying it's the right move. I'm just saying that if there was a year to try it might be this draft.

Exactly.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2017, 08:32:17 PM »

Offline TrueFan

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I'm sold on Lonzo Ball so I'm taking him with the pick.

If we end up with the second pick and Ball is gone then I'm seriously considering the offer. There are just too many talented guys from 2-10. Better to take two swings with this draft class.

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2017, 08:24:06 AM »

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No. Absolutely not.

Statistically and historically the guy selected #1 has an overwhelming chance to be a star as compared to the 4th or 8th pick. While every draft is different, I'm a firm believer of playing the odds unless a real and specific case can be made to justify why we should buck the trend. I'm not seeing that case made thus far. In the NFL, when it comes to draft picks more = better. That's not true in a top-heavy league like the NBA. That's why the #1 pick is so valuable.

Moreover, the Cs have two overseas stashes that will be looking to make their way to the roster next year and the Cs already have a BUNDLE of draft picks stashed already. Roster space is already very tight and I don't see that easing up next year. We could have Yab, Zizic, #1 draft pick and perhaps even Nader on the roster next year. There's not much room for other rookies unless we're going to go into tank mode (which makes absolutely no sense). At this point more picks means less to the Cs than perhaps any other team in the NBA right now.

To move down the deal would have to be so totally unbeatable that you simply can't turn it town. Otherwise, you stay at #1, select a star and pare them with Brown to form the core of a team that can compete now and has potentially a championship window of a dozen years or so.



 Irrelevant. This is the 2017 draft.

Which means what exactly?



 This... Explained here by OP. It's a deep draft.

 . But the best guy might get picked at #4. The Celtics could pick #1 and still be passing on a future superstar for a lesser player. While this is true most any year, it has a higher chance of happening this year than most because of the closeness of the talent in the top 4-7 players.

I'm not saying it's the right move. I'm just saying that if there was a year to try it might be this draft.

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2017, 08:38:32 AM »

Offline Granath

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No. Absolutely not.

Statistically and historically the guy selected #1 has an overwhelming chance to be a star as compared to the 4th or 8th pick. While every draft is different, I'm a firm believer of playing the odds unless a real and specific case can be made to justify why we should buck the trend. I'm not seeing that case made thus far. In the NFL, when it comes to draft picks more = better. That's not true in a top-heavy league like the NBA. That's why the #1 pick is so valuable.

Moreover, the Cs have two overseas stashes that will be looking to make their way to the roster next year and the Cs already have a BUNDLE of draft picks stashed already. Roster space is already very tight and I don't see that easing up next year. We could have Yab, Zizic, #1 draft pick and perhaps even Nader on the roster next year. There's not much room for other rookies unless we're going to go into tank mode (which makes absolutely no sense). At this point more picks means less to the Cs than perhaps any other team in the NBA right now.

To move down the deal would have to be so totally unbeatable that you simply can't turn it town. Otherwise, you stay at #1, select a star and pare them with Brown to form the core of a team that can compete now and has potentially a championship window of a dozen years or so.



 Irrelevant. This is the 2017 draft.

Which means what exactly?



 This... Explained here by OP. It's a deep draft.

 . But the best guy might get picked at #4. The Celtics could pick #1 and still be passing on a future superstar for a lesser player. While this is true most any year, it has a higher chance of happening this year than most because of the closeness of the talent in the top 4-7 players.

I'm not saying it's the right move. I'm just saying that if there was a year to try it might be this draft.

I hear that seemingly every year with our potential picks. Last year it was there was no difference between #3 and #10. The year before it was that no one worth a darn was going to be available after #15. In 2014 it was that everyone between #4 and #9 were equal.

It turned out that wasn't really true for those drafts and it's not likely to be true in this one. Just because there are attractive draft targets in this years' draft doesn't mean that they're all equal or even close to equal. We won't know that until quite close to the actual draft.

History also teaches us that this is rarely true. Even in drafts where there isn't a Lebron or Duncan the guy at the top is quite often a superstar. So if you're going to advocate bucking the trend on history then you need a compelling case to do so. That case hasn't been made yet. If it's made then it's something to consider.

But even when considering it there's point #2 that hasn't been addressed which is roster space.  Moving down doesn't do you any good if you're cutting players who have decent potential to be NBA players. Nor can you have a half the squad as rookies coming off the bench. You need a good mix. The Cs are going to have at least 1 first and 2 2nds this draft. They have two draft and stash guys coming. There's Nader to consider as well. Even if they dump the 2nds and Nader doesn't make it that's no fewer than 3 rookies. That's 1/5th of the team already and that cuts into the bench depth big-time as those guys get up to speed.

So in trading down you have to justify two points.
#1 - Prove that the draft is flat enough to justify it
#2 - Show how the Cs are going to absorb so many new players and not simultaneously hurt their chances to compete with their current squad.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Would you trade the #1 pick to Philly for #4 and #8?
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2017, 09:08:52 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

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Has there ever been a situation where a team traded the #1 for a combo of lesser lottery picks? I doubt it.

Only way I'm trading the #1 pick if the C's get it is if it involves a star player.