Author Topic: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder  (Read 9297 times)

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Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2017, 04:55:40 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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In a second. I think you are very much a homer if you don't think Carmelo is better than Jae. Re: his salary cap figure, convince me that the Celtics are going to be able to attract and sign a top 30 max player next year. That would be the opportunity cost of Carmelo.

If you hate Carmelo, I get it. I'm not enamored by him. I also acknowledge that he's a top 30 player in the NBA, that was considered to be a top scorer on Team USA this last go around. The Celtics need another high volume scorer. Jae isn't that guy, and I'm not sure that another is available.

I don't think Melo is a top 30 player anymore. Top 50 probably. Tail end of top 50.

Same here. He's no longer anywhere near efficient enough to be held in such high esteem despite his one-way game.

I think it depends a lot on his cirumstances. The Olympics showed us he can be a reliable second- or third- (or fourth!) banana. That Knicks team is a chemistry disaster and that isn't Melo's fault.

There's also the BS Effect. The man made Jordan Crawford look almost like a reliable PG. He would put Melo in a position to be successful, play off his strengths and minimize his weakness. Frankly, I don't think he's a worse defender than IT, and everyone across the league is singing his praises. Remember how nice it was to have old, rickety Paul Pierce - how often he would put up big number and command full attention defensively? Melo could be the same.
I wouldnt put much stock in the olympics. Pat Mills and Bogdonavich were also stars there.

Yeah, and playing 4th banana to guys like Durant, Paul George, and Kyrie is a lot different than deferring to Isaiah and Al Horford

Edit: Changed Harden to Paul George

You are saying Kyrie has more respect than IT4 around the league?

No, I'm saying that Kyrie has more respect from Melo than IT4

Although I would also say that Kyrie gets more respect than IT4 around the league, especially now that he has a ring
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Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2017, 04:57:30 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Semi interesting.  In 2007, we gave up a top 5 pick, a solid 29 year old starter (Wally) and a solid 23 year old prospect averaging 12.2 points, 4.4 assists, 3 rebounds 1.1 steals with 43%/37%/85% shooting (Delonte) for a 32 year old star (Ray).

An equivalent trade would be Jaylen Brown (the top 5 pick), Amir (29 year old starter) and I guess Olynyk (decent youngish prospect who can shoot) for 32 year old Melo.

Celtic fans would riot if we did that.   I just think it's interesting.  For what it's worth, I HATED the Ray trade when it happened for all the same reasons I'd hate giving up Jaylen, Amir and Olynyk for Melo.  The Ray trade only make sense in context with the KG move. 

Anyways...

So now you're comparing Jaylen Brown with Jeff Green? A day after comparing Jimmy Butler to Ricky Davis?

LB- you are killing it!
Are we sure Jaylen is a better level prospect than Jeff Green was in 2007?  I'm not so sure.

Green as a rookie averaged 10.5 points, 4.7 rebounds, 1.5 assists...  Jaylen is averaging 4.8 points, 1.9 rebounds, 0.6 assists.   That's unfair to Jaylen, though, because he doesn't play well enough to earn minutes for this team.  So let's even out their minutes and re-evaluate:

Rookie Jeff Green Per-36:  13.4 points, 6.1 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 0.7 steals, 0.8 blocks with 43%/28%/74% shooting.   

Rookie Jaylen Brown Per-36:  13.1 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1 steal, 0.8 blocks with 44%/32%/64% shooting

Rookie Jeff Green had 3 years of college experience.

Rookie Jaylen Brown has 1 year of college experience.

I'm sure it was just an oversight because you definitely have impartial posts and never ignore context.
It was actually the 5th pick without a player that was traded.  Seattle actually choose Jeff Green, but it could have been any player on the board at that time including Joakim Noah.  The rights to draft a player has an added level of value in that type of trade.  Green was basically a year older than Brown at the time of the draft.  So while he had an extra two years of college, he was only a year older and not 2 years older.
Basically said exactly the same thing before I did.

Out of curiosity, hypothetically what do you think the highest pick we could trade Jaylen for in this 2017 draft?   Do you think any team would give up a top 8 pick for him?

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2017, 04:58:17 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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In a second. I think you are very much a homer if you don't think Carmelo is better than Jae. Re: his salary cap figure, convince me that the Celtics are going to be able to attract and sign a top 30 max player next year. That would be the opportunity cost of Carmelo.

If you hate Carmelo, I get it. I'm not enamored by him. I also acknowledge that he's a top 30 player in the NBA, that was considered to be a top scorer on Team USA this last go around. The Celtics need another high volume scorer. Jae isn't that guy, and I'm not sure that another is available.

I don't think Melo is a top 30 player anymore. Top 50 probably. Tail end of top 50.

Same here. He's no longer anywhere near efficient enough to be held in such high esteem despite his one-way game.

I think it depends a lot on his cirumstances. The Olympics showed us he can be a reliable second- or third- (or fourth!) banana. That Knicks team is a chemistry disaster and that isn't Melo's fault.

There's also the BS Effect. The man made Jordan Crawford look almost like a reliable PG. He would put Melo in a position to be successful, play off his strengths and minimize his weakness. Frankly, I don't think he's a worse defender than IT, and everyone across the league is singing his praises. Remember how nice it was to have old, rickety Paul Pierce - how often he would put up big number and command full attention defensively? Melo could be the same.
I wouldnt put much stock in the olympics. Pat Mills and Bogdonavich were also stars there.

Yeah, and playing 4th banana to guys like Durant, Paul George, and Kyrie is a lot different than deferring to Isaiah and Al Horford

Edit: Changed Harden to Paul George

You are saying Kyrie has more respect than IT4 around the league?

No, I'm saying that Kyrie has more respect from Melo than IT4

Although I would also say that Kyrie gets more respect than IT4 around the league, especially now that he has a ring
I agree. Id also say Kyrie deserves more respect than Isaiah.
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Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2017, 05:00:30 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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In a second. I think you are very much a homer if you don't think Carmelo is better than Jae. Re: his salary cap figure, convince me that the Celtics are going to be able to attract and sign a top 30 max player next year. That would be the opportunity cost of Carmelo.

If you hate Carmelo, I get it. I'm not enamored by him. I also acknowledge that he's a top 30 player in the NBA, that was considered to be a top scorer on Team USA this last go around. The Celtics need another high volume scorer. Jae isn't that guy, and I'm not sure that another is available.

I don't think Melo is a top 30 player anymore. Top 50 probably. Tail end of top 50.

Same here. He's no longer anywhere near efficient enough to be held in such high esteem despite his one-way game.

I think it depends a lot on his cirumstances. The Olympics showed us he can be a reliable second- or third- (or fourth!) banana. That Knicks team is a chemistry disaster and that isn't Melo's fault.

There's also the BS Effect. The man made Jordan Crawford look almost like a reliable PG. He would put Melo in a position to be successful, play off his strengths and minimize his weakness. Frankly, I don't think he's a worse defender than IT, and everyone across the league is singing his praises. Remember how nice it was to have old, rickety Paul Pierce - how often he would put up big number and command full attention defensively? Melo could be the same.
I wouldnt put much stock in the olympics. Pat Mills and Bogdonavich were also stars there.

Yeah, and playing 4th banana to guys like Durant, Paul George, and Kyrie is a lot different than deferring to Isaiah and Al Horford

Edit: Changed Harden to Paul George
come on he wouldn't defer to Horford.  that is just silly.

I just think that if we made that trade we'd be a better playoff team and tougher out for teams like Cleveland and Toronto. On his contract, by the time Carmelo is in full-on decline, ideally Jaylen Brown will be ready for major minutes. Who knows. I don't love Carmelo Anthony, but he's better than Jae Crowder. And I like Jae Crowder just fine!

If the goal is to be a little tougher in the playoffs, then sure, the trade makes sense.  But of your goal is to win championships, then you keep your assets and go after a guy that will actually move the needle.  If you have enough assets after that to trade for a guy like Melo (or if the guy that moves the needle wants you to trade for another star first, a la Kevin Garnett), then you might do it, but flexibility is important when you're a team that's one player away.

Melo may be better than Crowder, but Crowder+flexibility is better than Melo if your goal is to win a championship (plus Crowder is a WAAAAAY better trade asset, especially when you consider Melo's NTC)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 05:10:28 PM by BitterJim »
I'm bitter.

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2017, 05:03:13 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Semi interesting.  In 2007, we gave up a top 5 pick, a solid 29 year old starter (Wally) and a solid 23 year old prospect averaging 12.2 points, 4.4 assists, 3 rebounds 1.1 steals with 43%/37%/85% shooting (Delonte) for a 32 year old star (Ray).

An equivalent trade would be Jaylen Brown (the top 5 pick), Amir (29 year old starter) and I guess Olynyk (decent youngish prospect who can shoot) for 32 year old Melo.

Celtic fans would riot if we did that.   I just think it's interesting.  For what it's worth, I HATED the Ray trade when it happened for all the same reasons I'd hate giving up Jaylen, Amir and Olynyk for Melo.  The Ray trade only make sense in context with the KG move. 

Anyways...

So now you're comparing Jaylen Brown with Jeff Green? A day after comparing Jimmy Butler to Ricky Davis?

LB- you are killing it!
Are we sure Jaylen is a better level prospect than Jeff Green was in 2007?  I'm not so sure.

Green as a rookie averaged 10.5 points, 4.7 rebounds, 1.5 assists...  Jaylen is averaging 4.8 points, 1.9 rebounds, 0.6 assists.   That's unfair to Jaylen, though, because he doesn't play well enough to earn minutes for this team.  So let's even out their minutes and re-evaluate:

Rookie Jeff Green Per-36:  13.4 points, 6.1 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 0.7 steals, 0.8 blocks with 43%/28%/74% shooting.   

Rookie Jaylen Brown Per-36:  13.1 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1 steal, 0.8 blocks with 44%/32%/64% shooting

Rookie Jeff Green had 3 years of college experience.

Rookie Jaylen Brown has 1 year of college experience.

I'm sure it was just an oversight because you definitely have impartial posts and never ignore context.
It was actually the 5th pick without a player that was traded.  Seattle actually choose Jeff Green, but it could have been any player on the board at that time including Joakim Noah.  The rights to draft a player has an added level of value in that type of trade.  Green was basically a year older than Brown at the time of the draft.  So while he had an extra two years of college, he was only a year older and not 2 years older.

The age thing isn't as relevant as there experience garnered from playing time in comparing rookie numbers. Green played 102 college games. Brown played 34. And why are we comparing rookie numbers between the two anyhow? It's pointless when you consider the usage Green had playing for one of the worst teams in the league. Brown has gears that Green never had. Green was a long strider that always struggled getting by defenders because he's always been a poor ball-handler and has a mediocre first step. Brown already has better handles and a killer first step, which is why he gets to the basket pretty much at will.

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2017, 05:49:42 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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In a second. I think you are very much a homer if you don't think Carmelo is better than Jae. Re: his salary cap figure, convince me that the Celtics are going to be able to attract and sign a top 30 max player next year. That would be the opportunity cost of Carmelo.

If you hate Carmelo, I get it. I'm not enamored by him. I also acknowledge that he's a top 30 player in the NBA, that was considered to be a top scorer on Team USA this last go around. The Celtics need another high volume scorer. Jae isn't that guy, and I'm not sure that another is available.

I don't think Melo is a top 30 player anymore. Top 50 probably. Tail end of top 50.

Same here. He's no longer anywhere near efficient enough to be held in such high esteem despite his one-way game.

I think it depends a lot on his cirumstances. The Olympics showed us he can be a reliable second- or third- (or fourth!) banana. That Knicks team is a chemistry disaster and that isn't Melo's fault.

There's also the BS Effect. The man made Jordan Crawford look almost like a reliable PG. He would put Melo in a position to be successful, play off his strengths and minimize his weakness. Frankly, I don't think he's a worse defender than IT, and everyone across the league is singing his praises. Remember how nice it was to have old, rickety Paul Pierce - how often he would put up big number and command full attention defensively? Melo could be the same.
I wouldnt put much stock in the olympics. Pat Mills and Bogdonavich were also stars there.

Yeah, and playing 4th banana to guys like Durant, Paul George, and Kyrie is a lot different than deferring to Isaiah and Al Horford

Edit: Changed Harden to Paul George

You are saying Kyrie has more respect than IT4 around the league?

No, I'm saying that Kyrie has more respect from Melo than IT4

Although I would also say that Kyrie gets more respect than IT4 around the league, especially now that he has a ring

Thats like saying Love has more respect than IT4 or Kyrie has more respect than Harden

The answer is no

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2017, 06:26:02 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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In a second. I think you are very much a homer if you don't think Carmelo is better than Jae. Re: his salary cap figure, convince me that the Celtics are going to be able to attract and sign a top 30 max player next year. That would be the opportunity cost of Carmelo.

If you hate Carmelo, I get it. I'm not enamored by him. I also acknowledge that he's a top 30 player in the NBA, that was considered to be a top scorer on Team USA this last go around. The Celtics need another high volume scorer. Jae isn't that guy, and I'm not sure that another is available.

I don't think Melo is a top 30 player anymore. Top 50 probably. Tail end of top 50.

Same here. He's no longer anywhere near efficient enough to be held in such high esteem despite his one-way game.

I think it depends a lot on his cirumstances. The Olympics showed us he can be a reliable second- or third- (or fourth!) banana. That Knicks team is a chemistry disaster and that isn't Melo's fault.

There's also the BS Effect. The man made Jordan Crawford look almost like a reliable PG. He would put Melo in a position to be successful, play off his strengths and minimize his weakness. Frankly, I don't think he's a worse defender than IT, and everyone across the league is singing his praises. Remember how nice it was to have old, rickety Paul Pierce - how often he would put up big number and command full attention defensively? Melo could be the same.
I wouldnt put much stock in the olympics. Pat Mills and Bogdonavich were also stars there.

Yeah, and playing 4th banana to guys like Durant, Paul George, and Kyrie is a lot different than deferring to Isaiah and Al Horford

Edit: Changed Harden to Paul George

You are saying Kyrie has more respect than IT4 around the league?

No, I'm saying that Kyrie has more respect from Melo than IT4

Although I would also say that Kyrie gets more respect than IT4 around the league, especially now that he has a ring

Thats like saying Love has more respect than IT4 or Kyrie has more respect than Harden

The answer is no

Just to be clear, you think Melo respects IT more than Kyrie, who has more all star appearances, has won a championship, and has played on Team USA with him? That's crazy

How is that like either of those things? Neither of those examples is even remotely comparable. That only works if Love=Kyrie for the first example (which isn't true) or IT=Harden for the second example (which also isn't true)

Edit: To put it in numbers, if IT is a 4, Kyrie is a 5, Love is a 3, and Harden is a 6, then:

Kyrie>IT
IT>Love (which is the opposite of bizarre example #1)
Harden>Kyrie (which is the opposite of bizarre example #2)

The only explanation for those examples I can think of is that you think I said that players with rings are automatically ahead of players without them, which I never said.  I just said that Kyrie (who you might have been able to argue commanded the same respect as IT if he didn't have a ring) definitely commands more respect than IT with a ring (but this also has to do with his 3 all star appearances, Olympic gold medal from Team USA, 2014 ASG MVP award, All NBA 3rd team appearance, etc. etc.)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 06:39:32 PM by BitterJim »
I'm bitter.

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2017, 07:06:52 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Melo for Crowder is an absolute no brainer for me. I like Crowder. Melo has his flaws. But I hands down take Melo.

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2017, 07:15:06 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I wouldn't be happy if we gave up Jaylen, Amir and Olynyk for Melo.

I'm a little more warm to the idea of acquiring Melo than a lot of fans, because I see him as someone who can be a go-to scorer even at age 32.  He's a top offensive weapon. 

But with Thomas emerging as a late-game closer and guys like Avery and Crowder shooting exceptionally efficient percentages while providing excellent defense, I would rather stand pat and hope for a better option to come around than lock up a lot of money on Melo.

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2017, 07:45:29 PM »

Offline moiso

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Agree with all of Who's posts.  He's gotten old, and he is complaining of yet another shoulder injury which may cause him to miss time.  Maybe Carmelo's ball dominating style is the reason Rose isn't happy in NY?  You wanna pair that guy with an actual good ball dominant point guard in IT?  Not me!  Give me Crowder.

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2017, 10:19:33 PM »

Offline bmac934

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There's no possibility in any universe that the knicks even consider this for a millisecond. (The original trade).

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2017, 10:20:38 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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they should have their heads examined.

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2017, 10:25:22 PM »

Offline bmac934

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In a second. I think you are very much a homer if you don't think Carmelo is better than Jae. Re: his salary cap figure, convince me that the Celtics are going to be able to attract and sign a top 30 max player next year. That would be the opportunity cost of Carmelo.

If you hate Carmelo, I get it. I'm not enamored by him. I also acknowledge that he's a top 30 player in the NBA, that was considered to be a top scorer on Team USA this last go around. The Celtics need another high volume scorer. Jae isn't that guy, and I'm not sure that another is available.

I don't think Melo is a top 30 player anymore. Top 50 probably. Tail end of top 50.

Wow that disrespectful

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2017, 10:31:29 PM »

Offline Chief Macho

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i kinda wanna see a Melo for Blake swap

Re: If the Knicks offered Carmelo for Crowder
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2017, 08:08:21 AM »

Offline Moranis

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In a second. I think you are very much a homer if you don't think Carmelo is better than Jae. Re: his salary cap figure, convince me that the Celtics are going to be able to attract and sign a top 30 max player next year. That would be the opportunity cost of Carmelo.

If you hate Carmelo, I get it. I'm not enamored by him. I also acknowledge that he's a top 30 player in the NBA, that was considered to be a top scorer on Team USA this last go around. The Celtics need another high volume scorer. Jae isn't that guy, and I'm not sure that another is available.

I don't think Melo is a top 30 player anymore. Top 50 probably. Tail end of top 50.

Same here. He's no longer anywhere near efficient enough to be held in such high esteem despite his one-way game.

I think it depends a lot on his cirumstances. The Olympics showed us he can be a reliable second- or third- (or fourth!) banana. That Knicks team is a chemistry disaster and that isn't Melo's fault.

There's also the BS Effect. The man made Jordan Crawford look almost like a reliable PG. He would put Melo in a position to be successful, play off his strengths and minimize his weakness. Frankly, I don't think he's a worse defender than IT, and everyone across the league is singing his praises. Remember how nice it was to have old, rickety Paul Pierce - how often he would put up big number and command full attention defensively? Melo could be the same.
I wouldnt put much stock in the olympics. Pat Mills and Bogdonavich were also stars there.

Yeah, and playing 4th banana to guys like Durant, Paul George, and Kyrie is a lot different than deferring to Isaiah and Al Horford

Edit: Changed Harden to Paul George
come on he wouldn't defer to Horford.  that is just silly.

That's exactly my point.  Melo was fine taking a lesser role and playing behind big names like Durant, Paul George, and Kyrie Irving in the Olympics, but here he'd try to be the top dog
You misunderstood my statement.  I was saying it was silly to think that Melo would have to defer to Horford.  Melo is a far better offensive player than Horford.  Horford would be deferring to Melo and that is the way the team would want it. 
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