All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)

[celticsclay]

None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.

Although i agree with your thinking (something is better than nothing) they didn't trade just a 3rd string center.... You make it sound like it's Mickey we are talking about. Noel is one of the reasons the tanked. Trading him for peanuts it's a decent deal for them today but talking into account the whole picture it's a huge loss.

Well the comment is not even accurate. When they were all healthy (and related playing better) okafor was getting dnps behind embiid and Noel. When Noel was healthy he was their second stringer and is a much better player than okafor. Also for a laugh look back at moranis and his previous discussions of Noel. His new "analysis" doesn't add up.

And some games Noel got the DNP and Okafor was backing up Embiid.  And some games when Embiid was out Okafor was starting and Noel didn't even play.  The Sixers were trying all sorts of things with their roster, but Okafor played in more games, started more games (and a higher percentage of starts vs. non-starts), and played more minutes per game.  Given the actual metrics it seems clear that Okafor was the 2nd center on the roster.  Noel was 3rd.

Come on Moranis, you are wrong in this and you know it. Stop trying to spin things differently to save face.

Okafor played more at the first part of the season over Noel, but that is like saying Telfair started over Rondo. in his last 24 games (which coincided with them winning in 2017), Noel has missed 2 games. Guess how many Okafor missed. THIRTEEN. The Sixers were experimenting, but they eventually found out Noel was better so they started playing him more.

Excellent point on Calling Moranis out on his shenanigans on this one. When all were healthy Noel was overwhelming the second string center (and has also flat out played better than Okafor for this year). Noel had an elective surgery that p---ed off the front office and then compounded it by saying "I am not an 8 minute player." When he was healthy and and not in the doghouse right after coming off of it he played over Okafor and was clearly recognized as a better fit for their team. Calling him the 3rd string center is just flat out inaccurate. The "everything Philly does is gold" routine is beyond tiresome, but glad to say others not letting him get away with this routine.

[Granath]

Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.

[celticsclay]

Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.

I 100% agree with this Granath TP. There have been years of debate of would we trade Smart for Noel. If we traded Smart next year for 2 mid seconds and 23 year old low end wing that can't shoot we would rightfully throw a mutiny.

[Ilikesports17]

Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.

you are generally correct. However, the real goal of the process was to acquire multiple superstar prospects. Now the most ardent hinkiers wont admit it, but the process was very bad for player development and I think youve seen Philly waste several very good assets.

Jahil Okafor and Nerlens Noel have both seen their stocks plummet completely due to the toxic environment of Philly.

I dont at all believe that the highest rated big in the '13 class and the 2nd highest rated big in the '15 class were just scouting blunders. Both these guys had the talent to be really good, but they were, or in the case of jahlil, are being ruined.

This is simply collateral. I think Hinkie knew that some very good prospects would be wasted in the hunt of a great one. Theyve found a great one in Embiid, they may have one in Simmons but the jury is out and they have a chance to get another crack at a Noel/Okafor level one(or even 2) in the coming draft. Ultimately, the process will live and die with the health of Joel Embiid's legs.

If hes healthy hell be a superstar and Philly will win a lot of games. If his career is shortened substantiallly, or riddled by injures, the process will likely be a failure.

Thats how I see it.

[The One]

Uh oh...I think THE PROCESS is starting to turn...into THE ABSCESS.   

[apc]

Sixers problem was (probably still is) that they fail building trust with their players. They don't treat their players well. which is why the players don't want to stay there after rookie contract is over.

In recent days Embiid also criticized Sixers management for the way they handled his latest injury.   

 

[Granath]

you are generally correct. However, the real goal of the process was to acquire multiple superstar prospects. Now the most ardent hinkiers wont admit it, but the process was very bad for player development and I think youve seen Philly waste several very good assets.

Jahil Okafor and Nerlens Noel have both seen their stocks plummet completely due to the toxic environment of Philly.

I dont at all believe that the highest rated big in the '13 class and the 2nd highest rated big in the '15 class were just scouting blunders. Both these guys had the talent to be really good, but they were, or in the case of jahlil, are being ruined.

This is simply collateral. I think Hinkie knew that some very good prospects would be wasted in the hunt of a great one. Theyve found a great one in Embiid, they may have one in Simmons but the jury is out and they have a chance to get another crack at a Noel/Okafor level one(or even 2) in the coming draft. Ultimately, the process will live and die with the health of Joel Embiid's legs.

If hes healthy hell be a superstar and Philly will win a lot of games. If his career is shortened substantiallly, or riddled by injures, the process will likely be a failure.

Thats how I see it.

Oh, I entirely agree with you. I've said it a few times now that one of the biggest flaws in the plan was that these guys were going to be put into an environment where winning was not important. It's got to be incredibly destructive to a player to come from a winning college program to a NBA team that has no interest in winning.

There's a reason why (historically) guys drafted in the top 5 to winning teams pan out at a higher rate than those who go to losing teams. It's because you have to learn to win and what it takes to do so in the NBA. Philly hasn't learned that and by the time they do many of their assets may have left or been traded because they never learned what it takes to be a NBA professional basketball player.

[Moranis]

None of that has anything to do with the trade yesterday.  They traded their 3rd string center who has played in 56% of the total games and who is due for a huge contract this summer, for a 2nd year wing with solid enough potential and a possible 1st round pick though more likely 2 2nd's.  That is a good trade for the Sixers.

Although i agree with your thinking (something is better than nothing) they didn't trade just a 3rd string center.... You make it sound like it's Mickey we are talking about. Noel is one of the reasons the tanked. Trading him for peanuts it's a decent deal for them today but talking into account the whole picture it's a huge loss.

Well the comment is not even accurate. When they were all healthy (and related playing better) okafor was getting dnps behind embiid and Noel. When Noel was healthy he was their second stringer and is a much better player than okafor. Also for a laugh look back at moranis and his previous discussions of Noel. His new "analysis" doesn't add up.

And some games Noel got the DNP and Okafor was backing up Embiid.  And some games when Embiid was out Okafor was starting and Noel didn't even play.  The Sixers were trying all sorts of things with their roster, but Okafor played in more games, started more games (and a higher percentage of starts vs. non-starts), and played more minutes per game.  Given the actual metrics it seems clear that Okafor was the 2nd center on the roster.  Noel was 3rd.

Come on Moranis, you are wrong in this and you know it. Stop trying to spin things differently to save face.

Okafor played more at the first part of the season over Noel, but that is like saying Telfair started over Rondo. in his last 24 games (which coincided with them winning in 2017), Noel has missed 2 games. Guess how many Okafor missed. THIRTEEN. The Sixers were experimenting, but they eventually found out Noel was better so they started playing him more.

Before Okafor sat for the trade rumors, he started the 3 previous games (and 6 of the prior 7) with Noel backing him up.  I mean let's not let facts get in the way.  Okafor has missed plenty of games because he has legitimately had injury issues as well. 

[hpantazo]

When Justin Anderson is averaging 15, 5 and 5 on the Sixers and becomes their best wing defender this deal will look great for the Sixers.

[Moranis]

Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.

Of course Philly did in fact trade for that pick (and got other assets as well) so they didn't tank at all to get Noel, though the trade to acquire Noel began the tanking. 

Of course the Process was about acquiring superstars.  It seems clear that Embiid has superstar potential and Simmons might as well.  Philly acquired as many picks as possible because the draft is a crap shoot.  The tanking was about maximizing odds, not about making every pick be a superstar.  If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.  And let's not forget they still have the Lakers pick, they have the 2019 Sacto pick, the right to swap picks with Sacto this year, and all of their own picks.  They could easily end up with at least 1 more superstar going forward coupled with the 2 they might already have. 

Look at this board, people didn't want to trade the BKN 17 pick for a real and legit superstar right now because of the promise that pick may have. 

[celticsclay]

When Justin Anderson is averaging 15, 5 and 5 on the Sixers and becomes their best wing defender this deal will look great for the Sixers.

Is this a joke?

1) He has been even worse this year on defense than he was his rookie season and was unable to stay fully in the rotation for a bad injury decimated team.
2) He never even averaged 15 points a game in college! He was not a 1 and done player either. As a junior despite being 21 and one of the few kids old enough to legally drink he averaged 12
3) He has scored 15 or more points 6 times across his two years. Coupled with his college scoring, what makes you think he can suddenly be a regular scorer in the NBA
4) Where do his minutes come from on Philly? He plays the same position as Covington who averages 32 minutes a game just turned 26 and is under contract next year and is a really elite defender that has shot well in the past
5) I personally hate them, but many others on here use them all the time so I will point out this guy is a tier 5 prospect according to Ford. As an old rookie his strength was supposed to be being NBA ready. What has he shown at the NBA level being unable to secure minutes for a bad team? How has he shown being a tier 5 end of bench prospect was a low ranking for him?
6) How does he learn to shoot? Across 5 college and pro seasons he had one decent shooting season from 3 in college. In over 100 games shooting more than 3 pointers a game he is a 28% career 3pt shooter. For all the crap we give Smart he is actually a better 3 point shooter in his career!
7) Just for reference, did you know that James Young is a full 2 years younger than Anderson and is shooting better from 2 and 3 than him by a significant margin?

Frankly I find all the people acting like a 23 year old swingman that can't shoot and was considered a fringe prospect coming out as a rookie is being labeled as some sure fire prospect in his 3rd season extremely puzzling.

[Casperian]

Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks.

Some of the same defenders of this trade would be howling for Danny's blood if we traded Marcus Smart for a bench player and 2 2nd round picks. They'd start the whole "Danny is a bad drafter" discussion and this would be at the very top of the list of Danny's "draft busts". I find it exceptionally amusing that given the exact same circumstances (#6 pick) that they're trying to spin this as some sort of win for Philly.

Nope, this can't be spun as anything positive. This is simply the first swing and miss for THE PROCESS. There will be more to come.

Of course Philly did in fact trade for that pick (and got other assets as well) so they didn't tank at all to get Noel, though the trade to acquire Noel began the tanking. 

Of course the Process was about acquiring superstars.  It seems clear that Embiid has superstar potential and Simmons might as well.  Philly acquired as many picks as possible because the draft is a crap shoot.  The tanking was about maximizing odds, not about making every pick be a superstar.  If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.  And let's not forget they still have the Lakers pick, they have the 2019 Sacto pick, the right to swap picks with Sacto this year, and all of their own picks.  They could easily end up with at least 1 more superstar going forward coupled with the 2 they might already have. 

Look at this board, people didn't want to trade the BKN 17 pick for a real and legit superstar right now because of the promise that pick may have.

You have a strange definition of "success". I thought it was just pure, dumb luck...

[MBunge]

If Philly comes out of this with even just two legit Superstars then it was a success.

No.  If that is all Philly gets out of it, then "The Process" was a failure.  Extreme tanking is only justified by extreme rewards at the end.

Mike

[LarBrd33]

Going back to my post two pages ago...

THE PROCESS was all about tanking to get multiple high draft picks and using those to build a great team. The first pick in THE PROCESS was just traded for an older bench warmer and two 2nd round picks

That's not accurate.   Noel was not the effect of the process.  He was part of the cause.

Noel was not Philly's draft pick.  He never really mattered. 

Philly gave up Jrue Holiday for assets that became:

- Dario Saric - likely R.O.Y frontrunner
- Richaun Holmes - quality back-up big who will get more minutes now
- Restored 1st round pick - Had Philly's pick fallen in the 12-30 range at any point in the next 3 years, the Magic would have got the pick.  This eliminated that condition
- Justin Anderson - prototypical wing prospect who has a chance to blossom in Philly
- Multiple 2nd round picks.

Making that trade (for a prospect and 1st rounder that were not going to play that season), put Philly in position to bottom out.   The was "the process".  The result of the first year of "the process" was picking Joel Embiid with the #3 pick.   

We've already seen enough from Philly this season to confidently say that a healthy Joel Embiid can carry a team to 50+ wins.  Philly actually has a 13-11 record in 2017 even though Embiid has missed many of those games.  They have played at a 50+ win pace with him on the court.  Of course, the concerns about his health are the issue.  But he alone vindicate anything Philly did during "the Process".  It was about getting a guy like that.  They got a guy like that.

The other "prizes" of the process were Jahlil Okafor and Ben Simmons.

Okafor - Yeah, that might end up being a failed pick.  That happens.  Philly knew this.  Not every top 7 pick ends up a superstar.  But we know that the majority of superstars are taken in those top 7 picks.  That's been my philosophy on internet forums dating back to 1997.  If you can't trade or a sign a star - the draft is your best hope.  The higher the pick, the better your odds of striking big.   Okafor, fwiw, still has star potential despite the mountains of hate he gets.  His defense sucks.  His rebounding sucks.  His advanced stats are a joke.  He might not fit the modern NBA.   But he's got obvious potential and a couple years left of development before you can really give up on him.

Ben Simmons - Just announced today he'll miss the rest of the season.  Another questionable lack of transparency from the 76ers.  Footage shows Simmons dunking, yet he's not "fully healed".  All too familiar story for Philly fans.  Lack of clarity remains.  But we've been hearing since day 1 that his Agent wanted him to miss the entire season.  Partially because he gets a massive bonus from Nike if he wins Rookie of the Year - and you can't do that if you don't play enough games (hence why Saric and Brogdon are the two frontrunners this year - not Embiid). Jury will remain very out on how good that kid will be.  Might he be rookie of the year next year?  Unsure.

One more year of tanking is probably what ownership desires there.   With a loaded draft on the way and prospects like Fultz and Ball potentially fitting in beautifully with their other elite prospects, I'm sure they are itching to remain in the Bottom 5.  I'd expect Embiid to be shut down at some point as well.

Throughout "The Process" they have picked up several additional assets.  That Laker 1st which is top 3 protected this year and unprotected next year.  Swap rights with the Kings.  The Kings unprotected 2019 pick. Mountains and mountains of 2nd round picks.  Some interesting prospects like McConnell, Covington and Stauskas.   

It still might all fail.  At times I got carried away on this forum cheekily going back-and-forth with bitter 76er haters.   That's been fun.  It's been an entertaining ride and I think most people realized I was mostly just playing devil's advocate and acting as the foil to the majority opinion.... But big-picture, I still maintain - without any reverse jinxery or sarcasm - that "the process" was a worthwhile plan.   That team wasn't going anywhere without it.  They hadn't truly contended since the 1980s.  Their last "superstar" might have been the most overrated player of the past 30 years (Iverson).   They had already tried desperately to get a franchise big (Bynum) and it blew up in their faces at the expense of multiple 1st round picks and assets.   Going all-in in an attempt to exploit the NBA's tank system made tons of sense.   They now have a ton of hope for the future. 

If healthy, I think they will be a playoff team next year.  They have the talent on that roster already.  Healthy Embiid is a game-changer.  Everything else is gravy.  How they manage the rest of the roster remains to be seen.  I could see them throwing max contracts at restricted free agents like Otto Porter this Summer as well... so who knows what that roster will look like.  Long-term, I  would not be surprised if 5 years from now we met them in the Eastern Conference Finals - and perhaps again yearly for the next decade.   

And with that, this is the final Philly-centric post you'll ever see from LarBrd33 on Celticsblog.   It's been fun, fellas. 

[Moranis]

For the record, I do not think Anderson is going to be a great player.  I think he could be a solid bench player, but not much more.  Philly had a logjam at the center position and Noel was either going to be paid 20 million to be a backup or Philly was going to let him go for nothing.  So I thought the trade made sense for them because it gave them a shot at a 1st round pick (Dallas might make the playoffs and finish ahead of a couple of Eastern playoff teams), a look at a 2nd year wing signed cheaply and at a position of need, and 3 hours to try and turn Bogut into something else.  It may end up being a disaster trade or it might work quite well for them in the long term (maybe with the logjam gone Okafor really blossoms into his potential, Anderson becomes a starter level player, and they get something from the draft picks, or inversely Noel continues to be injury prone and isn't work anywhere near the contract he signs for).