Author Topic: All Things Philadelphia 76ers (merged Sixers threads)  (Read 59248 times)

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Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2017, 01:59:46 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I kinda think Philly got awkwardly lucky that Ben Simmons got hurt. Three straight years of top draft picks getting hurt. It's like they've invented a new kind of tanking....the super tank.

But I'm not sure getting all your guys hurt and losing for well over half a decade is such a great idea.

The Sixers are in the third quarter as I type this and Jahil hasn't gotten into the game.

At some point you start to think "They must hate that guy." When that happens the price drops.

There are basically 4 guys on the market right now.
Butler
Jahil
Mislay
D Howard

They've missed their sell high moment for the time being.  If they want a lot I need to see the player stay healthy for 4 straight months and play well the whole time.

I mean, they benched Noel for a while to see how the Okafor/Embiid pairing worked, now they're benching Okafor to see how the Noel/Embiid pairing works. They're definitely one (or both) of the two, they just haven't settled on whom yet.
I'm not sure why they'd be checking a moot point, since their best pairing going forward is obviously Simmons/Embiid.
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Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2017, 02:08:17 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.

My point was that culture changes when teams start to believe they can win games.  You are correct that Wickes/Rowe were gone, but Tiny, Cris Ford, Cedric Maxwell and others were still there.  What changed was Larry Bird. 

Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons can lead the Sixers to a new culture just as culture change has occurred in many franchises.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2017, 02:17:11 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2017, 02:30:48 PM »

Offline footey

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"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2017, 02:32:29 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.

The Sixers were the ninth seed in 2013. They weren't trying to tank, they were just legitimately below-average. They didn't start tanking until the same time the Celtics did.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2017, 02:33:23 PM »

Offline oldtype

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I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better. 


Great words from a great man

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2017, 02:49:21 PM »

Online knuckleballer

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I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 02:55:05 PM by knuckleballer »

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2017, 03:41:45 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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The Sixers tanked for three seasons under Hinkie.  Although they are not prioritizing wins, they are not tanking this season.  They have 10 wins now which was their total for all of last year.  They're just a normally bad team who has been dealing with a lot of injuries including Embiid's minute restriction (10 games missed),  Simmons no games played so far, Bayless only played 3 games and is out for the season.  Noel out injured until mid December.   So this year for them is all about experimentation and player development.   


Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2017, 04:04:15 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season. 

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2017, 04:14:21 PM »

Offline MBunge

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"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.

The Sixers were the ninth seed in 2013. They weren't trying to tank, they were just legitimately below-average. They didn't start tanking until the same time the Celtics did.

Tanking isn't the same thing as rebuilding, though the former can be part of the latter.  Virtually every team that rebuilds takes a step back but it's not fair to call that tanking.  To me, tanking is when a team makes multiple moves or non-moves where the main goal is to not win games.  I don't think you can say Ainge has ever done that.  Even the Nets deal wasn't really about making the Celtics bad.  It was about getting those 2017 and 2018 picks when KG and Pierce would be retired or plain done.

Mike

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2017, 04:16:23 PM »

Offline oldtype

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I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season.

I'm of the belief that you don't take your team out of its natural course of development.  If you're already bad by all means keep being bad, but you can't take a team that's becoming good, forcefully dismantle it, and expect whatever's left to still be productive.

Tanking all the way to the high lottery in 2014-15 would have required us to dump one or more of Thomas/Crowder/Bradley for whatever we could get at the time. 

The knock-on effect from that is huge.  All of those three have developed into far better players now, and we would have never signed Horford if we did that.  It would have also sent a really bad message to the rest of the team/Coach Stevens. 


Great words from a great man

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2017, 04:32:53 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.

The Sixers were the ninth seed in 2013. They weren't trying to tank, they were just legitimately below-average. They didn't start tanking until the same time the Celtics did.

Tanking isn't the same thing as rebuilding, though the former can be part of the latter.  Virtually every team that rebuilds takes a step back but it's not fair to call that tanking.  To me, tanking is when a team makes multiple moves or non-moves where the main goal is to not win games.  I don't think you can say Ainge has ever done that.  Even the Nets deal wasn't really about making the Celtics bad.  It was about getting those 2017 and 2018 picks when KG and Pierce would be retired or plain done.

Mike
Phoenix's willingness to give us an all-star for free and Brooklyns willingness to throw us multiple top 5 picks for the decaying corpses of Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett are the only 2 reasons we did not have to suck for more than a season.

MCW for the Lakers pick was a brilliant trade more than a tanking move.
Holiday for Noel + Saric pick was a similarly brilliant(and totally scummy) move moreso than a tanking move
drafting Noel was tanky but he was BPA clearly. drafting Embiid was the easy choice. Boston wanted him if he fell to 6 and the next 4 guys picked were Exum Gordon Smart Randle. Embiid's talent towers over those guys.

Philly didnt make many moves with the intention of sucking. They just didnt make any moves with the intention of winning. Philly never signed Evan Turner, they never traded for Isaiah Thomas, they never found Jae Crowder, they never acquired Jonas Jerebko. They also would have likely moved Sullinger and Olynyk for picks.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 04:39:35 PM by Ilikesports17 »
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2017, 04:39:42 PM »

Online knuckleballer

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I mean, the enjoyment we've had watching a decent team over the past three seasons (and in future seasons) is worth something.  If both teams end up back in contention at the same time I definitely like our way better.

I agree.  Over the past 2 1/2 seasons the Celtics have won 73 more games than the 76ers.  For those who don't watch games that might not matter.  But for those of us that do, we've got to see some good basketball and competitive games.  I don't take that for granted.  I can tolerate one tanking season, but Philly's tank is going on half a decade now.  It's ridiculous.
I guess I have a different perspective and tolerance level since I'm a long distance fan.  I would have preferred tanking or at least not backing into the playoffs in 2014-15.  You have to get really lucky if you just tank one season.

They weren't bad enough to be in the bottom 3 or 4 teams in 2014-2015.  The reason they backed into the playoffs was because they picked up IT and to a lesser extent Crowder.  So who did they really miss out on?  Porzingis?  They probably wouldn't have had a chance at him anyway unless they got lucky with ping pong balls.  The guys that went after Porzingis were Hezonja, WCS, Mudiay, Stanley Johnson, Kaminsky, Winslow, and Turner.  I'd rather have IT over any of those guys and Crowder over most of them. 

There's never any guarantee of getting a franchise changing player when tanking and to continue to put off the rest of the team's development and attempts to win games year after year is so damaging.  Some people are all exited about the 76ers and yet they are still the 2nd worst team in the league.  Maybe Simmons will miraculously learn how to shoot a jump shot and Embiid might stay healthy and they might actually win half their games within a few years, but there's no guarantee of that.  It takes more than a little luck in the lottery to develop a winning team.  Lebron had to leave Cleveland to win a title after all and despite Cleveland's incredible luck in the lottery and many early draft picks, they weren't able to put a winning team together until Lebron returned.  Just look at Minnesota now.  They have Wiggins, Towns, Lavine, Deng, and Dunn and they still win less than 30% of their games.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2017, 04:44:17 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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"a losing culture can be hard to break is a good argument if it weren't for examples of losing teams that became winners.   You recall what happened to the Wickes/Rowe Cs once 23 yo Larry Bird got here. Losing culture dies quickly when dominant players begin to dominate"

You just ruined your own argument. One big reason that the 1980 Celtics turned things around was that Wicks and Rowe and their attitudes were gone. Fitch and Larry took care of those problems in training camp.
its actually very true. Losing cultures disappear as soon as the stars hit their stride.  Happened with the cavs. Happened with Oklahoma. Happened with the clippers.  Etc.

Philly is set up majestically heading forward.  Last I checked, since both Boston and philly started tanking, those two teams have the same amount of playoff series wins.  That should change this season I assume, but I fully expect barring injury Philly to be in the playoffs and making noise within the next few years.   Their culture has already changed since the arrival of Embiid. That team and its fanbase is lit.  Only a matter of time before the minutes restrictions lift, their other franchise player returns and they figure out how to get some wins consistently.

To equate Philly tanking with our tanking is nonsense and done to inflame Celtic fans. Nice.

You are the worst prognosticator on this blog, so your predictions as to Philly's future carry as much weight as your predictions about the Nets: Zilch.
we both started tanking at the same time. It's a fact.  Philly traded their lone borderline star for Noel and saric. We traded two hall of famers for draft picks, another allstar for draft picks, another top player for draft picks... and our reward was Marcus smart. Their reward was Embiid. Boston then quickly became decent while philly kept collecting potential stars (okafor and Simmons).    It's been a few years and neither team has won a playoff series.  We should win one this year.  I suspect Philly will too in the next few years.

We had one really bad season, 13/14. Sixer played bad from 12/13 through 16/17. That's five years in a row. That's a fact, kid. Choose your words more carefully.
listen grandpappy, the only relevant fact you just brought up is that Philly was mediocre to bad for decades before they tanked that season. Boston was breaking up a contender and had significantly more assets to deal.   They traded away three all stars and Jeff green for assets.  Philly's only real asset was jrue holiday and they were actually missing picks when they started tanking.

Nonetheless, it's entirely accurate to say both teams started tanking the same season.   By definition, if you trade all your best players for picks - you're tanking... no matter what some arbitrary "rebuilding" designation you want to give it.  You really don't get any more quintessential "tanking" than trading away an entire contender and intentionally bottoming out with a bottom 3 record.   That marked the second time of Danny's tenure they intentionally tanked (they did it in 2007) and the third noteable tankjob of this franchise (1997).   Also, if you real any quotes from Ainge during the 2014 season, it's blatantly clear the team intended to bottom out that season as well, but Thomas fell into our lap, our young role players exceeded expectations and Brad Stevens coached them into the playoffs with a below .500 record.

It is what it is.  We are positioned as well as any team in the league heading forward thanks to our uncanny luck moving our hall of famers for future picks that now are conveying extremely high.   It's a great position to be in.  But it's notable that neither Philly or Boston have won a playoff series since they began their tank job.   Boston got mediocre quicker than Philly and now they are a top 10 team ... it looks like Philly will catch up within the next few years - which is remarkable considering they started with 1/6th the assets Boston did in 2013 when both teams intentionally tanked.

Re: The Sixers missed their sell high moment
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2017, 04:49:46 PM »

Offline oldtype

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If the following things are true:

1. Your enjoyment from watching a good but not Championship-level team is exactly 0

2. You are confident that the league won't change the rules mid-stream and screw you over

Then I agree that the optimal strategy is to trade everyone, draft players, trade every one of those players who won't be a superstar, draft more players, and repeat until you have a critical mass of superstars. 

Follow boom-bust cycles where you are the worst team in the league for 5~8 years, and then are hopefully really good for 5~8 years. 


Great words from a great man