Poll: Crowder For Noel, Saric, Covington

[PhoSita]

Covington in his career has performed as well as Crowder.  Now obviously thus far this year Covington can't hit the broad side of a barn and Crowder has been on fire, but those are both career anomalies.  Covington is the better rebounder and they are comparable passers (in their careers, though Crowder is better this year).  Both are + defenders and can defend multiple positions.  And yeah Crowder has a great contract, but Covington's is better.  They are both 26 and are pretty firmly established as 3 and D players.  That is their end game.

Noel has incredible defensive talent.  Could easily be a Deandre Jordan type defensive player, though Noel can hit foul shots and doesn't rebound as well as Jordan (still would be by far the best rebounder on Boston though).  I could easily see him being a defensive anchor on a championship team, but could also see his attitude and injury history having him out of the league in the near future.  Noel is still just 22.

Saric as a rookie has shown flashes of greatness but also does the typical rookie things.  I think he has by far the most top end potential of any of the 4 players especially if his 37% from three isn't a fluke to start his career.  He could be a real legit star.

If Philly called and offered Noel, Saric, and Covington for basically Crowder and Ainge turned that down he should be fired on the spot.

I like Covington better as a 4 than as a 3, whereas I feel good about Crowder switching or guarding full time 2-4 in the majority of matchups.

Covington has looked good, at times, on a team with no intent on winning.  No clue how he'd perform on a decent team.  Crowder has been the fulcrum on a good team for a couple years now.


Noel can't possibly become a defensive player along the lines of Deandre Jordan unless he can stay healthy and become a much better rebounder.  A huge portion of DJ's value on defense is his ability to dominate the defensive boards.

On offense, Noel is not a particularly good finisher, nor is he a great offensive rebounder.  There again he absolutely pales in comparison to a big like Deandre or Whiteside.


Saric is nice, but it's hard for me to judge him by numbers alone given the team he's on.  Players with his skill profile have to be pretty excellent to justify handling the ball so much.  Players that fall short of excellent tend to be extremely situational bench contributors, a la old friend Evan Turner or somebody like Kyle Anderson in San Antonio.

I see the upside with Saric, but I also see a downside that you don't seem to consider.


As for Crowder, I think you're underselling the value of a genuine two-way, starter caliber role player at the wing position locked up long term to annual salary that is probably a quarter of what the player would get on the open market. 

Noel and Covington will soon be each making at least twice what Crowder makes, and will make for another few years.

That's a huge deal when you're trying to build a good team.

[celticsclay]

Covington in his career has performed as well as Crowder.  Now obviously thus far this year Covington can't hit the broad side of a barn and Crowder has been on fire, but those are both career anomalies.  Covington is the better rebounder and they are comparable passers (in their careers, though Crowder is better this year).  Both are + defenders and can defend multiple positions.  And yeah Crowder has a great contract, but Covington's is better.  They are both 26 and are pretty firmly established as 3 and D players.  That is their end game.

Noel has incredible defensive talent.  Could easily be a Deandre Jordan type defensive player, though Noel can hit foul shots and doesn't rebound as well as Jordan (still would be by far the best rebounder on Boston though).  I could easily see him being a defensive anchor on a championship team, but could also see his attitude and injury history having him out of the league in the near future.  Noel is still just 22.

Saric as a rookie has shown flashes of greatness but also does the typical rookie things.  I think he has by far the most top end potential of any of the 4 players especially if his 37% from three isn't a fluke to start his career.  He could be a real legit star.

If Philly called and offered Noel, Saric, and Covington for basically Crowder and Ainge turned that down he should be fired on the spot.

I like Covington better as a 4 than as a 3, whereas I feel good about Crowder switching or guarding full time 2-4 in the majority of matchups.

Covington has looked good, at times, on a team with no intent on winning.  No clue how he'd perform on a decent team.  Crowder has been the fulcrum on a good team for a couple years now.


Noel can't possibly become a defensive player along the lines of Deandre Jordan unless he can stay healthy and become a much better rebounder.  A huge portion of DJ's value on defense is his ability to dominate the defensive boards.

On offense, Noel is not a particularly good finisher, nor is he a great offensive rebounder.  There again he absolutely pales in comparison to a big like Deandre or Whiteside.


Saric is nice, but it's hard for me to judge him by numbers alone given the team he's on.  Players with his skill profile have to be pretty excellent to justify handling the ball so much.  Players that fall short of excellent tend to be extremely situational bench contributors, a la old friend Evan Turner or somebody like Kyle Anderson in San Antonio.

I see the upside with Saric, but I also see a downside that you don't seem to consider.


As for Crowder, I think you're underselling the value of a genuine two-way, starter caliber role player at the wing position locked up long term to annual salary that is probably a quarter of what the player would get on the open market. 

Noel and Covington will soon be each making at least twice what Crowder makes, and will make for another few years.

That's a huge deal when you're trying to build a good team.

Phosita this is a really excellent reply. Moranis has a long history of seeing all the positives on Philadelphia players and only seeing the negatives on Celtics players.

Also realize over the years Moranis has said things like Henry Sims and Hollis Thompson were comparable to Crowder. A few years later he is doing the same thing with different Philadelphia players.

I think Saric could certainly be solid, but I think the "future star" is quite a bit much for him and gets into territory that even optimistic Philly fans don't hold. If people want to be contrarians and pick at the flaws of Celtics players they certainly need to be able to do it with players on other teams also. Otherwise the forum just becomes silly rather quickly.

[Endless Paradise]

76ers never make that trade.

This.

[86MaxwellSmart]

No, because Crowder plays with passion...just what a Celtic should do.
Also, I wish people would get over this whole Nerlens Noel fascination--he's really awful, and seems like a huge Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. off the court too.

Danny needs to move Zeller or Amir for a defensive, rebounding big this season--or just wait...Noel is NOT the answer.P Plus, given his contract situation---you really wanna pay this guy $15Million+ a year--?

[Moranis]

Covington in his career has performed as well as Crowder.  Now obviously thus far this year Covington can't hit the broad side of a barn and Crowder has been on fire, but those are both career anomalies.  Covington is the better rebounder and they are comparable passers (in their careers, though Crowder is better this year).  Both are + defenders and can defend multiple positions.  And yeah Crowder has a great contract, but Covington's is better.  They are both 26 and are pretty firmly established as 3 and D players.  That is their end game.

Noel has incredible defensive talent.  Could easily be a Deandre Jordan type defensive player, though Noel can hit foul shots and doesn't rebound as well as Jordan (still would be by far the best rebounder on Boston though).  I could easily see him being a defensive anchor on a championship team, but could also see his attitude and injury history having him out of the league in the near future.  Noel is still just 22.

Saric as a rookie has shown flashes of greatness but also does the typical rookie things.  I think he has by far the most top end potential of any of the 4 players especially if his 37% from three isn't a fluke to start his career.  He could be a real legit star.

If Philly called and offered Noel, Saric, and Covington for basically Crowder and Ainge turned that down he should be fired on the spot.

I like Covington better as a 4 than as a 3, whereas I feel good about Crowder switching or guarding full time 2-4 in the majority of matchups.

Covington has looked good, at times, on a team with no intent on winning.  No clue how he'd perform on a decent team.  Crowder has been the fulcrum on a good team for a couple years now.


Noel can't possibly become a defensive player along the lines of Deandre Jordan unless he can stay healthy and become a much better rebounder.  A huge portion of DJ's value on defense is his ability to dominate the defensive boards.

On offense, Noel is not a particularly good finisher, nor is he a great offensive rebounder.  There again he absolutely pales in comparison to a big like Deandre or Whiteside.


Saric is nice, but it's hard for me to judge him by numbers alone given the team he's on.  Players with his skill profile have to be pretty excellent to justify handling the ball so much.  Players that fall short of excellent tend to be extremely situational bench contributors, a la old friend Evan Turner or somebody like Kyle Anderson in San Antonio.

I see the upside with Saric, but I also see a downside that you don't seem to consider.


As for Crowder, I think you're underselling the value of a genuine two-way, starter caliber role player at the wing position locked up long term to annual salary that is probably a quarter of what the player would get on the open market. 

Noel and Covington will soon be each making at least twice what Crowder makes, and will make for another few years.

That's a huge deal when you're trying to build a good team.

Obviously Saric is a rookie and you never know how a rookie develops, but the fact that he has come in and shot at 37% is a good sign, since that was a supposed weakness in his game.  He isn't a great defender and never will be, but he isn't a liability on that end of the floor either.  Even if he never develops much past where he is at, he could have a Kelly Olynyk type career i.e. a stretch 4 off the bench.  He has already shown that much.  There is a reason he was a lottery pick when everyone knew he wasn't coming over for at least 2 years.

[bdm860]

I think Crowder is a lot like Rondo around here, where there was 2 Rondos, regular Rondo and big-game/playoff Rondo.

There's Rondo with the crazy triple doubles (like when he almost averaged one against the Bulls or the 18/20/17 game against the Knicks) or the high scoring playoff games (like 44 against the Heat).  People would argue for that Rondo, but others would point out how rarely and inconsistently "playoff" Rondo showed up.  That's Crowder this year.

Last year Crowder was pretty hot for a stretch.  On multiple occasions I recall Zach Lowe refer to him as a possible fringe All-Star, how if Boston offered Crowder for Love, Cleveland would have to listen.  There was a 3 game stretch in December last year where Crowder averaged 20/10, which kicked off a 35 game stretch that lasted until March where Crowder averaged 18/6, with several 20+ point games spread throughout.  That's when Zach Lowe was calling him an All-Star, that's when his value was probably highest.  Then came that high ankle sprain.

So coming into this year, everybody's high on Crowder, most of us are expecting (or at least hoping) that 18/6 Crowder to show back up, the guy whose going to energize the team with great defense while also dropping 20+ once 4-5 games or so when the team needs it.  The growth we've seen from Avery Bradley this year, that's basically the same growth we thought Crowder was going to give us.  Only he hasn't given it to us (yet at least).

Now when people think of Crowder here, some still see that 18/6 Crowder from part of last year, others see a guy whose production has declined back to what we're seeing now.  The scoring's not there and neither is the defense that was one vote away from the All-Defensive team.  I love Crowder, but I don't think I've seen the Crowder from last year yet.

[PhoSita]

To be clear, I think "13 points / 5 rebounds / 2 asts / 1.5 steals on 45 / 35 / 70 shooting" Jae Crowder is a really valuable player, especially when you consider his contract.

I'd compare him to Luol Deng of a few years ago, or somebody like Trevor Ariza or Marvin Williams.

[vjcsmoke]

We could just sign Noel as a free agent.  So we're essentially trading Jae Crowder for Saric and Covington. 


Not for me.

Philly can match if they make a qualifying offer by 6/30/17 and the team has only $32 million in guaranteed contracts for next year.

Philly can match but why would they want to?  They are overloaded at the big man position and Noel has officially been removed from the rotation so he's extremely unhappy in Philadelphia.

I believe we are offering too much for a player in Noel who is imminently on the way out of Philly right now.

[KG Living Legend]

 Wow. After an overwhelming rejection for the Idea CB has came around and pulled dead even.

 If Noel resigned here this is a no brainier trade for the Celtics.

[GreenFaith1819]

Here, let me tip the poll towards Crowder.

Nope.

Crowder, to me, is considered to be a "Heart and Soul" part of this current Celtics Team - along with IT, AB and Marcus. You take that away and you'd better be getting something concrete back in return.

I'm not saying that Noel, Saric or Covington could not develop into "that" kind of leader that Crowder is, but I'd rather put my money on what we ALREADY have with Crowder.

I'd guess that "IF" we made such a trade then Jaylen would be able to step into Crowder's spot....but is Jaylen ready?

Can Jaylen seamlessly fit in and be a Leader? Like Crowder is right now? What about Team Chemistry?

I love the potential that shines through in Jaylen even now but again I wouldn't want to make such a trade.

[Ilikesports17]

Covington in his career has performed as well as Crowder.  Now obviously thus far this year Covington can't hit the broad side of a barn and Crowder has been on fire, but those are both career anomalies.  Covington is the better rebounder and they are comparable passers (in their careers, though Crowder is better this year).  Both are + defenders and can defend multiple positions.  And yeah Crowder has a great contract, but Covington's is better.  They are both 26 and are pretty firmly established as 3 and D players.  That is their end game.

Noel has incredible defensive talent.  Could easily be a Deandre Jordan type defensive player, though Noel can hit foul shots and doesn't rebound as well as Jordan (still would be by far the best rebounder on Boston though).  I could easily see him being a defensive anchor on a championship team, but could also see his attitude and injury history having him out of the league in the near future.  Noel is still just 22.

Saric as a rookie has shown flashes of greatness but also does the typical rookie things.  I think he has by far the most top end potential of any of the 4 players especially if his 37% from three isn't a fluke to start his career.  He could be a real legit star.

If Philly called and offered Noel, Saric, and Covington for basically Crowder and Ainge turned that down he should be fired on the spot.

I like Covington better as a 4 than as a 3, whereas I feel good about Crowder switching or guarding full time 2-4 in the majority of matchups.

Covington has looked good, at times, on a team with no intent on winning.  No clue how he'd perform on a decent team.  Crowder has been the fulcrum on a good team for a couple years now.


Noel can't possibly become a defensive player along the lines of Deandre Jordan unless he can stay healthy and become a much better rebounder.  A huge portion of DJ's value on defense is his ability to dominate the defensive boards.

On offense, Noel is not a particularly good finisher, nor is he a great offensive rebounder.  There again he absolutely pales in comparison to a big like Deandre or Whiteside.


Saric is nice, but it's hard for me to judge him by numbers alone given the team he's on.  Players with his skill profile have to be pretty excellent to justify handling the ball so much.  Players that fall short of excellent tend to be extremely situational bench contributors, a la old friend Evan Turner or somebody like Kyle Anderson in San Antonio.

I see the upside with Saric, but I also see a downside that you don't seem to consider.


As for Crowder, I think you're underselling the value of a genuine two-way, starter caliber role player at the wing position locked up long term to annual salary that is probably a quarter of what the player would get on the open market. 

Noel and Covington will soon be each making at least twice what Crowder makes, and will make for another few years.

That's a huge deal when you're trying to build a good team.

Obviously Saric is a rookie and you never know how a rookie develops, but the fact that he has come in and shot at 37% is a good sign, since that was a supposed weakness in his game.  He isn't a great defender and never will be, but he isn't a liability on that end of the floor either.  Even if he never develops much past where he is at, he could have a Kelly Olynyk type career i.e. a stretch 4 off the bench.  He has already shown that much.  There is a reason he was a lottery pick when everyone knew he wasn't coming over for at least 2 years.

I dont think Saric has a ton of upside. He projects as a very good role-player not unlike our very own Jae Crowder. He could be anywhere from Olynyk-level to slightly above Crowder level.

[Moranis]

Covington in his career has performed as well as Crowder.  Now obviously thus far this year Covington can't hit the broad side of a barn and Crowder has been on fire, but those are both career anomalies.  Covington is the better rebounder and they are comparable passers (in their careers, though Crowder is better this year).  Both are + defenders and can defend multiple positions.  And yeah Crowder has a great contract, but Covington's is better.  They are both 26 and are pretty firmly established as 3 and D players.  That is their end game.

Noel has incredible defensive talent.  Could easily be a Deandre Jordan type defensive player, though Noel can hit foul shots and doesn't rebound as well as Jordan (still would be by far the best rebounder on Boston though).  I could easily see him being a defensive anchor on a championship team, but could also see his attitude and injury history having him out of the league in the near future.  Noel is still just 22.

Saric as a rookie has shown flashes of greatness but also does the typical rookie things.  I think he has by far the most top end potential of any of the 4 players especially if his 37% from three isn't a fluke to start his career.  He could be a real legit star.

If Philly called and offered Noel, Saric, and Covington for basically Crowder and Ainge turned that down he should be fired on the spot.

I like Covington better as a 4 than as a 3, whereas I feel good about Crowder switching or guarding full time 2-4 in the majority of matchups.

Covington has looked good, at times, on a team with no intent on winning.  No clue how he'd perform on a decent team.  Crowder has been the fulcrum on a good team for a couple years now.


Noel can't possibly become a defensive player along the lines of Deandre Jordan unless he can stay healthy and become a much better rebounder.  A huge portion of DJ's value on defense is his ability to dominate the defensive boards.

On offense, Noel is not a particularly good finisher, nor is he a great offensive rebounder.  There again he absolutely pales in comparison to a big like Deandre or Whiteside.


Saric is nice, but it's hard for me to judge him by numbers alone given the team he's on.  Players with his skill profile have to be pretty excellent to justify handling the ball so much.  Players that fall short of excellent tend to be extremely situational bench contributors, a la old friend Evan Turner or somebody like Kyle Anderson in San Antonio.

I see the upside with Saric, but I also see a downside that you don't seem to consider.


As for Crowder, I think you're underselling the value of a genuine two-way, starter caliber role player at the wing position locked up long term to annual salary that is probably a quarter of what the player would get on the open market. 

Noel and Covington will soon be each making at least twice what Crowder makes, and will make for another few years.

That's a huge deal when you're trying to build a good team.

Obviously Saric is a rookie and you never know how a rookie develops, but the fact that he has come in and shot at 37% is a good sign, since that was a supposed weakness in his game.  He isn't a great defender and never will be, but he isn't a liability on that end of the floor either.  Even if he never develops much past where he is at, he could have a Kelly Olynyk type career i.e. a stretch 4 off the bench.  He has already shown that much.  There is a reason he was a lottery pick when everyone knew he wasn't coming over for at least 2 years.

I dont think Saric has a ton of upside. He projects as a very good role-player not unlike our very own Jae Crowder. He could be anywhere from Olynyk-level to slightly above Crowder level.

Saric has more upside than that, but players fail to reach their high end upside all the time, so he may very well end up in that 1st big off the bench type level.  Really hard to say, but when you get Saric, Noel, and Covington for Crowder, you have to take it every single time.  That is a huge net positive coming to Boston even if Saric is basically just Olynyk and Noel leaves this summer, it is still a trade that has to be made if your Boston.

[trickybilly]

I love Jae a bunch - he so rarely turns the ball over.. but this idea is pretty nice. We'd need to throw in a first rounder though..

[KG Living Legend]

I love Jae a bunch - he so rarely turns the ball over.. but this idea is pretty nice. We'd need to throw in a first rounder though..

 TP trickbilly thanks..

[LarBrd33]

Oh goodie.  Another 76ers thread.

Philly says no.  Saric for Smart is equal value and makes some sense for both teams, but Philly would basically be swapping one struggling shooter for another except saric has the potential to reasonably improve his shot soon.  He's only a rookie, but he's already shooting 77% from the line and 35% from three which suggests that once he adapts to the NBA game, he should be an above average shooter.  On the flip side this is the third straight season of Smart's exceptionally poor shooting and we haven't seen many signs he will ever improve enough to earn starter minutes.  Especially not on a team desperate for consistent outside shooting around their budding superstars.