Author Topic: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???  (Read 11269 times)

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Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2016, 03:55:43 PM »

Offline Moranis

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And so long as we get back an equal offensive player who is better at defense/rebounding, I don't see why anybody would have a probably with it.

Well, sure.

What player are you envisioning that fits that description? 

How many guys in the league right now are equal to IT offensively while better at defense and rebounding?


Here's a list of guys who put up 25+ points per 36, 5+ assists per 36 minutes with at least 55% True shooting:

- Kevin Durant
- James Harden
- Stephen Curry
- Damian Lillard
- Isaiah Thomas
- Kemba Walker
- Kyrie Irving

If you lower the points to 20+ per-36, the following names are included:

Chris Paul
Giannis Antetokounmpo
John Wall


Basically ... if you're trading IT, there better be an All-NBA caliber player coming back the other way.  Otherwise, it's likely to be a downgrade.  He is an extremely rare offensive talent.
Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Kevin Garnett never averaged 25+ per 36 would you have traded Thomas for any of those guys?  Now granted they all did have multiple seasons of 20+ and 55 TS, so they were in the second category.

Thomas over the course of a season is a great offensive player, but his size becomes a real problem in the playoffs, even offensively where he has had a precipitous drop in effectiveness during the playoffs.  When you couple that precipitous drop offensively with his already poor defense and he almost becomes a liability in the playoffs.  The only thing he has done well in the playoffs is get to the line. 
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Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2016, 04:05:00 PM »

Offline alewilliam789

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After I read the post on here saying that they wouldn't want DAMIAN LILLARD and JAMES HARDEN on their team I stopped reading.

This isn't college basketball. While it's very good to have ball movement as a squad, but there is nothing wrong with having a ball dominant player on your team unless they can't play within the system.  The only reason that Harden is so ball-dominant now is because of Dantoni's system.

If there's one thing I agree with it's that IT needs to do a better job of playing within the flow of the offense and then creating every so often.
Besides that he shouldn't be traded or moved to the bench.
one more thing

This isn't the first season in which Harden has been very ball dominant
You are right he's a relatively ball dominant guard, but what does it matter? They are a top team in the West and are beating good teams.

As with Isaiah he is a ball dominant guard that's winning, 3rd in the East, and in contention for an All Star spot in the East.
Could he play better within the offense? Yes, but I still don't see why he should be benched or traded.

Also those saying that we should move on from IT because we can't win a championship with him, I can almost guarantee you we won't win with Smart so we should keep him on the bench and trade him right?

The better player starts. Smart isn't the better play so he doesn't start.

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2016, 04:09:43 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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I'm not sure how irrational it is to point out that he's not very good at defense.

John Wall, for instance, is 6'4, can get to the hoop, and is very good at defense.

People are irrationally quick to throw IT under the bus because of his size. 

If he were 6'3'' with literally the exact same stats and performance people would be clamoring for him to be an MVP candidate.  He'd be considered untouchable.
It's not wrong to criticize him for his defense, it's wrong to criticize him for his height.  The point is that a 6'3" Isaiah Thomas that was just as bad at defense would be regarded way better despite being the exact same player

I'm not so sure about that. Your hypothetical argument is that IT could be just as bad at D if he was 6'3. That doesn't seem germaine to the conversation, as I don't hear anyone complaining about his defensive effort. I think they are commenting on his inability to defend bigger guards effectively. Everyone knows its b/c he is 5'9.

If I was 6'3 instead of 5'10, I may have been a good high school player, instead of an undersized power forward. My coach didn't care that I wasn't tall enough. He cared that he had someone on the court that could defend other forwards 6'3 or taller....

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2016, 04:11:43 PM »

Online BitterJim

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And so long as we get back an equal offensive player who is better at defense/rebounding, I don't see why anybody would have a probably with it.

Well, sure.

What player are you envisioning that fits that description? 

How many guys in the league right now are equal to IT offensively while better at defense and rebounding?


Here's a list of guys who put up 25+ points per 36, 5+ assists per 36 minutes with at least 55% True shooting:

- Kevin Durant
- James Harden
- Stephen Curry
- Damian Lillard
- Isaiah Thomas
- Kemba Walker
- Kyrie Irving

If you lower the points to 20+ per-36, the following names are included:

Chris Paul
Giannis Antetokounmpo
John Wall


Basically ... if you're trading IT, there better be an All-NBA caliber player coming back the other way.  Otherwise, it's likely to be a downgrade.  He is an extremely rare offensive talent.
Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Kevin Garnett never averaged 25+ per 36 would you have traded Thomas for any of those guys?  Now granted they all did have multiple seasons of 20+ and 55 TS, so they were in the second category.

Thomas over the course of a season is a great offensive player, but his size becomes a real problem in the playoffs, even offensively where he has had a precipitous drop in effectiveness during the playoffs.  When you couple that precipitous drop offensively with his already poor defense and he almost becomes a liability in the playoffs.  The only thing he has done well in the playoffs is get to the line.

He has "dropped off" in the playoffs on teams where he is not only the first offensive option, but the only one.  There aren't many players in the NBA that can handle being the only focus of playoff defenses when the other team has game planned specifically for them

Not to mention that IT's stats from the playoffs and regular season last year aren't really that different:
22.2p, 6.2ast, 3.0rbd, 35.9%3p, 47.7%2p, 2.7 TOs in 32.2mpg
24.2p, 5.0ast, 3.0rbd, 28.3%3p, 46.6%2p, 2.3 TOs in 36.7mpg

Only his 3 point percentage and assists went down appreciably
I'm bitter.

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2016, 04:13:41 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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After I read the post on here saying that they wouldn't want DAMIAN LILLARD and JAMES HARDEN on their team I stopped reading.

This isn't college basketball. While it's very good to have ball movement as a squad, but there is nothing wrong with having a ball dominant player on your team unless they can't play within the system.  The only reason that Harden is so ball-dominant now is because of Dantoni's system.

If there's one thing I agree with it's that IT needs to do a better job of playing within the flow of the offense and then creating every so often.
Besides that he shouldn't be traded or moved to the bench.
one more thing

This isn't the first season in which Harden has been very ball dominant
You are right he's a relatively ball dominant guard, but what does it matter? They are a top team in the West and are beating good teams.

As with Isaiah he is a ball dominant guard that's winning, 3rd in the East, and in contention for an All Star spot in the East.
Could he play better within the offense? Yes, but I still don't see why he should be benched or traded.

Also those saying that we should move on from IT because we can't win a championship with him, I can almost guarantee you we won't win with Smart so we should keep him on the bench and trade him right?

The better player starts. Smart isn't the better play so he doesn't start.

If Marcus Smart was a) 5'9, b) getting ready to be paid over $25 million per year, and c) about to be 30 when he signs a max deal, people would also want to go back to the drawing board.

I really enjoy watching IT play. I think he is a top 10 scorer in this league (statistically, he is). I think he would be better served playing off the bench to scorch backup pgs and not get "as scorched" himself. He could literally score 30 points a game play playing over 35 minutes. I just don't see him signing to be a backup.

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2016, 04:19:32 PM »

Online BitterJim

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I'm not sure how irrational it is to point out that he's not very good at defense.

John Wall, for instance, is 6'4, can get to the hoop, and is very good at defense.

People are irrationally quick to throw IT under the bus because of his size. 

If he were 6'3'' with literally the exact same stats and performance people would be clamoring for him to be an MVP candidate.  He'd be considered untouchable.
It's not wrong to criticize him for his defense, it's wrong to criticize him for his height.  The point is that a 6'3" Isaiah Thomas that was just as bad at defense would be regarded way better despite being the exact same player

I'm not so sure about that. Your hypothetical argument is that IT could be just as bad at D if he was 6'3. That doesn't seem germaine to the conversation, as I don't hear anyone complaining about his defensive effort. I think they are commenting on his inability to defend bigger guards effectively. Everyone knows its b/c he is 5'9.

If I was 6'3 instead of 5'10, I may have been a good high school player, instead of an undersized power forward. My coach didn't care that I wasn't tall enough. He cared that he had someone on the court that could defend other forwards 6'3 or taller....

You have to admit that there are players that are 6'3" that are just as bad, or worse, than IT on defense.  Guys like Lillard, Kyrie, and James Harden are just awful.  What I'm saying is that a 6'3" IT that was just as bad at defense (like the players mentioned previously, who are around that height and just as bad, if not worse, than IT on defense) would be criticized less even if he was just as good at O and D

Obviously, if IT were taller he could be better at defense, but that's not really relevant.  The point I'm making is that he is thought less of for his height outside of the effect it has on his defense.  If he were 6'3", but had the exact same struggles  on defense (still bad against bigger guards, still the weak link in the defense), he wouldn't be criticized as heavily as he is now
I'm bitter.

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2016, 04:28:07 PM »

Offline Diggles

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I have to admit I was maybe we can win with out IT.  But the NBA teams that win are teams with consistent play.  IT is the only constant player we have.   Come playoffs he has failed us.   But with Bradley and AL this year we could really see him shine.   

Having a Center gobbling up rebounds at an alarming rate would be the only guy I would trade IT for...
Diggles

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2016, 04:30:23 PM »

Offline GratefulCs

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I have to admit I was maybe we can win with out IT.  But the NBA teams that win are teams with consistent play.  IT is the only constant player we have.   Come playoffs he has failed us.   But with Bradley and AL this year we could really see him shine.   

Having a Center gobbling up rebounds at an alarming rate would be the only guy I would trade IT for...
i will say that it is hard to say he failed us last year in the playoffs since we were super injured
I trust Danny Ainge

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2016, 04:36:47 PM »

Offline More Banners

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If Kwame Brown and Rondo somehow swapped hands- Kwame's tiny ones
For Rondo's mitts, each would be a profoundly different player. Physical strengths and weaknesses matter for athletes.

In any case, I don't expect to contend during IT's current contract. So the point is not an urgent one. Though his value may be highest right about now given his contract. And if we're not contending anyway, there is no such thing as untouchable. Ainge surely is willing to pull the trigger. Just surprised there aren't trade rumors swirling like Judas had to deal with.

He may be the best we've got, but so was Employee #8.  He won his 'chip as a backup - somewhere else. If IT ever gets one, it's likely to be the same way.

If a GM calls and asks about IT, no doubt at all Ainge enjoys a nice long chat.

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2016, 04:37:45 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Thomas over the course of a season is a great offensive player, but his size becomes a real problem in the playoffs, even offensively where he has had a precipitous drop in effectiveness during the playoffs.  When you couple that precipitous drop offensively with his already poor defense and he almost becomes a liability in the playoffs.  The only thing he has done well in the playoffs is get to the line.


First of all, we're talking about a 10 game sample here, so those playoff performances probably need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, I believe in both of those series, Isaiah was (a) dealing with an injury of some kind and (b) playing without much help on offense.


Even setting aside those issues, offensive players becoming less efficient / effective in the playoffs is hardly limited to IT.

Kyle Lowry, for example, struggled quite a bit in the playoffs last season, and in previous seasons.

Toronto fans aren't clamoring to move on from Kyle Lowry, are they?


Bottom line here, my aim is not to make Isaiah out to be a flawless player.  By no means.  But I think a lot of the time people have a much easier time seeing his flaws as a player because of his size.  And they tend to articulate their concerns about those flaws in a way that implies he could be easily replaced.

IT could not be easily replaced.  Let's be really clear about that.  I have some concerns about his longevity, and his ability to produce at the same level in the playoffs.

But what are our alternatives?

Surely the Celts have a better chance of competing at a high level in the future if they try to keep IT and add other talent, rather than trading IT simply because he's got flaws and hoping one of the younger guys takes his place.

My point is also that, by the same token, if IT were bigger, even if it didn't make one whit of difference in his effectiveness, he would be regarded as an NBA superstar who ought to be a fixture of the franchise for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2016, 04:54:11 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Would you rather have IT or Kyrie?  Is it close?  That's the difference.

Honestly, with Kyrie's frequent injury concerns -- and considering that I just don't enjoy watching him play -- I wouldn't be particularly excited to trade IT for Kyrie.

I honestly don't think there's a huge difference in how valuable they are.  Kyrie seems to have a higher gear in the playoffs, but he gets to play next to LeBron, and IT has never had that luxury.
Until this year, Irving's best year was the year before Lebron arrived back in Cleveland.
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Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2016, 04:56:26 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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Isaiah Thomas is decent at defense. I see so many claims that he is awful, but that's not what I see. He is limited by his height, as Olynyk is limited by dinosaur arms.

I agree with folks who predict how this forum will react. The same thing happened with Rondo. Then after a while, we stunk without Rondo. I don't think Smart and Rozier would be ready to take over point guard if we didn't have Isaiah. Maybe they will be in a year or two. Maybe negative people should stop watching and wait for when the team truly picks up steam. They are definitely not on the same wavelength as the Celtics. They are the Keith Bogans of fans.

Why can't we enjoy the team and how much better they've gotten since Brad arrived? Why can't we watch and see what happens with Isaiah this year before condemning him?

There is a thread already asking who will replace Amir, Kelly and Jerebko. Maybe with Amir it's true he needs to be replaced. He's not getting it done. He should be one of our top players.

Jerebko and Olynyk are not finished stories and neither is Isaiah Thomas.

I.T. was quite injured in the first playoffs, so he deserves no blame for that one. Last year we were completely banged up playing on fumes and still scraped out a couple wins.

Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2016, 04:59:36 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Would you rather have IT or Kyrie?  Is it close?  That's the difference.

Honestly, with Kyrie's frequent injury concerns -- and considering that I just don't enjoy watching him play -- I wouldn't be particularly excited to trade IT for Kyrie.

I honestly don't think there's a huge difference in how valuable they are.  Kyrie seems to have a higher gear in the playoffs, but he gets to play next to LeBron, and IT has never had that luxury.
Until this year, Irving's best year was the year before Lebron arrived back in Cleveland.

Sure, but his team stunk and he never played in the playoffs until LeBron showed up.

How good would IT look in the playoffs if he played with Bron?
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Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2016, 05:01:17 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Thomas over the course of a season is a great offensive player, but his size becomes a real problem in the playoffs, even offensively where he has had a precipitous drop in effectiveness during the playoffs.  When you couple that precipitous drop offensively with his already poor defense and he almost becomes a liability in the playoffs.  The only thing he has done well in the playoffs is get to the line.


First of all, we're talking about a 10 game sample here, so those playoff performances probably need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, I believe in both of those series, Isaiah was (a) dealing with an injury of some kind and (b) playing without much help on offense.


Even setting aside those issues, offensive players becoming less efficient / effective in the playoffs is hardly limited to IT.

Kyle Lowry, for example, struggled quite a bit in the playoffs last season, and in previous seasons.

Toronto fans aren't clamoring to move on from Kyle Lowry, are they?


Bottom line here, my aim is not to make Isaiah out to be a flawless player.  By no means.  But I think a lot of the time people have a much easier time seeing his flaws as a player because of his size.  And they tend to articulate their concerns about those flaws in a way that implies he could be easily replaced.

IT could not be easily replaced.  Let's be really clear about that.  I have some concerns about his longevity, and his ability to produce at the same level in the playoffs.

But what are our alternatives?

Surely the Celts have a better chance of competing at a high level in the future if they try to keep IT and add other talent, rather than trading IT simply because he's got flaws and hoping one of the younger guys takes his place.

My point is also that, by the same token, if IT were bigger, even if it didn't make one whit of difference in his effectiveness, he would be regarded as an NBA superstar who ought to be a fixture of the franchise for the foreseeable future.
of course numbers go down in the playoffs, you are playing better teams, my concern with IT is he took a pretty big shooting drop and he is already a terrible defensive player that the better teams abuse him even more.  IT can't take a huge fall offensively because he can't make up for it defensively.  That is the problem with IT in general.  And here's the thing, that 10 game sample was against Kyrie Irving and Jeff Teague.  We aren't exactly talking about superstar defenders.  Heck I think you might be nice if you called them both poor defenders, yet they significantly diminished IT's offensive output.  That is a real problem. 
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Re: Really People... 1 Game And It's Already "Trade IT"???
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2016, 05:03:14 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Would you rather have IT or Kyrie?  Is it close?  That's the difference.

Honestly, with Kyrie's frequent injury concerns -- and considering that I just don't enjoy watching him play -- I wouldn't be particularly excited to trade IT for Kyrie.

I honestly don't think there's a huge difference in how valuable they are.  Kyrie seems to have a higher gear in the playoffs, but he gets to play next to LeBron, and IT has never had that luxury.
Until this year, Irving's best year was the year before Lebron arrived back in Cleveland.

Sure, but his team stunk and he never played in the playoffs until LeBron showed up.

How good would IT look in the playoffs if he played with Bron?
Probably better as he would get more open looks, but not nearly as good as Irving.  Irving is a better all around player than Thomas on both ends of the floor.
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