Author Topic: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench  (Read 18351 times)

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Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2016, 02:42:41 AM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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IT could be a SMOTY calibre 6th man coming off the bench but he is also the best starting PG we have just now. Smart may be starting tonight so he could prove me wrong.
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Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2016, 02:43:00 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Okay start Smart or Rozier over IT. Watch how bad our offense is. Our offense plays terrible without him in. Yes Rozier and Smart are good , but in spurts. That's what makes them good bench players and not consistent starters.
There is a reason that Smart got sat and it's because he's not good enough to be a starting point guard in the NBA.
Some of you guys are ridiculous. You wanna sit our best and most dynamic playmaker because what? He had one bad game? Sit all your butts down as IT becomes one of the best little guys in NBA history and Smart keeps chucking up bricks.
Been advocating on IT starting since he came to Boston despite the backlash and now he's one of the top point guards in the league, we are a top team in the East, and he's coming off an All-Star season. Stop the what-ifs and experience the present. IT, even with defensive limitations, is a 10x better player than Smart and that's not changing for the foreseeable future.
I would give you a tp for the first paragraph if the logic was applied to Smart, Rozier and IT. People can easily make an argument that IT shouldn't be a starter due to his defensive skills. I believe none of the C's PGs are ideal starters yet IT is currently the best and should start. We should not give IT a pass though. He has to do a better job on defense. His first three years in the league he was tough to get by and guys had to try and shoot over him from far outside. Right now guys blow by him and he doesn't fight around screens or picks. He also tries to direct switches that shouldn't be necessary. More and more people will (and should) question IT starting and his value here.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2016, 03:30:09 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Okay start Smart or Rozier over IT. Watch how bad our offense is. Our offense plays terrible without him in. Yes Rozier and Smart are good , but in spurts. That's what makes them good bench players and not consistent starters.
There is a reason that Smart got sat and it's because he's not good enough to be a starting point guard in the NBA.
Some of you guys are ridiculous. You wanna sit our best and most dynamic playmaker because what? He had one bad game? Sit all your butts down as IT becomes one of the best little guys in NBA history and Smart keeps chucking up bricks.
Been advocating on IT starting since he came to Boston despite the backlash and now he's one of the top point guards in the league, we are a top team in the East, and he's coming off an All-Star season. Stop the what-ifs and experience the present. IT, even with defensive limitations, is a 10x better player than Smart and that's not changing for the foreseeable future.
I would give you a tp for the first paragraph if the logic was applied to Smart, Rozier and IT. People can easily make an argument that IT shouldn't be a starter due to his defensive skills. I believe none of the C's PGs are ideal starters yet IT is currently the best and should start. We should not give IT a pass though. He has to do a better job on defense. His first three years in the league he was tough to get by and guys had to try and shoot over him from far outside. Right now guys blow by him and he doesn't fight around screens or picks. He also tries to direct switches that shouldn't be necessary. More and more people will (and should) question IT starting and his value here.
Yeah he should definitely pay more effort on D, if he does that he can really solidify his status as well as his starting spot.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2016, 05:01:00 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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IT has to start if we want to compete. He does need to make some changes to his game though, whilst he is scoring better this year he is doing so at the expense of good offense in my opinion.

It's more than just IT though, Bradley seems to have become lax defensively and in a lot of games it feels like the team doesn't really switch on unless it has to. We aren't like the Cavs who can do that for half a season, our margin for error is small. It's down to Brad to light a fire under these guys, at the moment they say the right things but they don't act to change them like last year. He needs to hold them accountable, something he's traditionally been good at.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2016, 06:10:17 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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only bench IT will come off this year is all star!!!!
press loves him,fans love him and owners must because the house is packed and we have 22 televised games
remember this is a rebuild  and a long regular season

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2016, 07:12:49 AM »

Offline iadera

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It is not problem in negative comments on Celtics on this forum. The problem is lack of arguments for such posts. You can't just open a topic because one loss has eaten your nerves and now you have to blame someone, and above all you pick your best player out and want to bench him??! That's childlish. And the worst thing is that we have 4 PAGES!! on this sensless topic.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2016, 07:50:42 AM »

Offline OldSchoolDude

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I expect us to draft a full size pg who can pass, score, and defend.  See UCLA basketball for the solution.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2016, 08:00:28 AM »

Offline moiso

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IT has to start if we want to compete. He does need to make some changes to his game though, whilst he is scoring better this year he is doing so at the expense of good offense in my opinion.

It's more than just IT though, Bradley seems to have become lax defensively and in a lot of games it feels like the team doesn't really switch on unless it has to. We aren't like the Cavs who can do that for half a season, our margin for error is small. It's down to Brad to light a fire under these guys, at the moment they say the right things but they don't act to change them like last year. He needs to hold them accountable, something he's traditionally been good at.
I wasn't crazy about some of his quotes either, about how he wanted to average 25pts per game to be closer to Iverson level.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2016, 08:04:39 AM »

Offline jbpats

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It is not problem in negative comments on Celtics on this forum. The problem is lack of arguments for such posts. You can't just open a topic because one loss has eaten your nerves and now you have to blame someone, and above all you pick your best player out and want to bench him??! That's childlish. And the worst thing is that we have 4 PAGES!! on this sensless topic.

I didn't start the topic because "one loss ate at my nerves" I actually thought that one loss was one of the best games the Celtics played this season and that we got screwed by poor officiating and a bad bounce at the end of the game on Horfords end.
Listen I watch every Celtics game, I also am a season ticket holder so attend most games when I can.
People are putting my OP out of context, I love IT, I think he is great.  The stuff he can do at his size is simply remarkable.This season however I am starting to see how he is a liability, primarily on the defensive end and by his often selfish shot selection, I am also starting to be turned off by his on court attitude. Granted his shot selection is likely selfish because we don't have that many options, or at least he may feel that way.
That being said, and as others have mentioned, IT is not a guy that can lead this team to the next level. I said he would be a better served as a 6th man, MANY other posters on here seem to agree. Create that spark off the bench.. I agree it's hard to justify since we need him as a starter but I do feel if Bradley, Horford and maybe even Jonas (if he becomes a starter in the long run) get more shots on a properly run offense, they can be legitimate scoring options also. Currently IT's shot selection is not allowing any guys to really get into a rhythm. This is not an analysis because of the Houston game, this is an analysis I have generated from watching 20 games this season.
I understand people giving me a hard time because I suggested Rozier to start, probably a dumb comment. I didn't say Smart because I believe Smart is a better 2 then PG and between Smart and IT I believe IT runs the point better. I said Rozier because in the brief minutes he's had this season I think he has shown more glimmer of being a true PG.. or at least the most true PG this team has to offer right now.
Makes you wonder if the C's should have drafted Dunn at 3, I love Jaylen and I do believe he has what it takes to be a great player in the NBA, but Dunn is the true PG this team lacks, and if Thomas were to walk when his contract is up I can honestly say we all would wish Dunn was his replacement. Also, can't imagine how much value Jaylen will have if he end up signing Hayward this off season. Also, not sure we want Thomas taking 30 ill advised shots a game if we do end up with a scorer like Hayward.. do you think Thomas would be comfortable taking a back seat? I don't..  Alas shifting topics but it's all relative in some way.

I guess all i'm trying to say is people are tired of "negative" topics on celticsblog.. I call them harmless debate.. I don't sugarcoat what I see, if i believe there can be improvement I create a post and we debate. Considering that a good portion of the posts agree with me (minus starting Rozier) I am having a hard time understanding why so many are insulted.
 

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2016, 09:59:26 AM »

Offline spikelovetheCelts

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It is not problem in negative comments on Celtics on this forum. The problem is lack of arguments for such posts. You can't just open a topic because one loss has eaten your nerves and now you have to blame someone, and above all you pick your best player out and want to bench him??! That's childlish. And the worst thing is that we have 4 PAGES!! on this sensless topic.

I didn't start the topic because "one loss ate at my nerves" I actually thought that one loss was one of the best games the Celtics played this season and that we got screwed by poor officiating and a bad bounce at the end of the game on Horfords end.
Listen I watch every Celtics game, I also am a season ticket holder so attend most games when I can.
People are putting my OP out of context, I love IT, I think he is great.  The stuff he can do at his size is simply remarkable.This season however I am starting to see how he is a liability, primarily on the defensive end and by his often selfish shot selection, I am also starting to be turned off by his on court attitude. Granted his shot selection is likely selfish because we don't have that many options, or at least he may feel that way.
That being said, and as others have mentioned, IT is not a guy that can lead this team to the next level. I said he would be a better served as a 6th man, MANY other posters on here seem to agree. Create that spark off the bench.. I agree it's hard to justify since we need him as a starter but I do feel if Bradley, Horford and maybe even Jonas (if he becomes a starter in the long run) get more shots on a properly run offense, they can be legitimate scoring options also. Currently IT's shot selection is not allowing any guys to really get into a rhythm. This is not an analysis because of the Houston game, this is an analysis I have generated from watching 20 games this season.
I understand people giving me a hard time because I suggested Rozier to start, probably a dumb comment. I didn't say Smart because I believe Smart is a better 2 then PG and between Smart and IT I believe IT runs the point better. I said Rozier because in the brief minutes he's had this season I think he has shown more glimmer of being a true PG.. or at least the most true PG this team has to offer right now.
Makes you wonder if the C's should have drafted Dunn at 3, I love Jaylen and I do believe he has what it takes to be a great player in the NBA, but Dunn is the true PG this team lacks, and if Thomas were to walk when his contract is up I can honestly say we all would wish Dunn was his replacement. Also, can't imagine how much value Jaylen will have if he end up signing Hayward this off season. Also, not sure we want Thomas taking 30 ill advised shots a game if we do end up with a scorer like Hayward.. do you think Thomas would be comfortable taking a back seat? I don't..  Alas shifting topics but it's all relative in some way.

I guess all i'm trying to say is people are tired of "negative" topics on celticsblog.. I call them harmless debate.. I don't sugarcoat what I see, if i believe there can be improvement I create a post and we debate. Considering that a good portion of the posts agree with me (minus starting Rozier) I am having a hard time understanding why so many are insulted.
He is an All-Star that is even better this year. NO way he comes of the bench. This topic just makes you look silly but that is what Celtic Blog has become silly. If one cannot see that this Thread is a waste of air than i feel for the poster.
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Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2016, 10:32:53 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Sorry I just don't believe the Celtics will excel with IT as the starting point guard. I don't care who, (within reason) you pair him with. If you pared him with Cousins, he still wouldn't defer to him. (Been there, done that, the Kings traded him.) We on the other hand are dying to give the pairing another go.

He's a defensive liability, he dominates the ball to score as much as he can. He thinks the more he scores, the better the chances are of a Celtic victory, and that's the way he plays the game, he still showing the NBA what a mistake they made about him at the draft years ago.

Sometimes it just seems to me he would rather challenge at the rim with acrobatic shots, than pass to an open shooter 10-12 feet away.

In a winning scheme, IT would come off the bench, replacing a solid Celtic PG, at opportunistic times during the game. And be very valuable to the team as a 6th man.   

If I'm wrong, and I hope I am, I'll say it.
 


Well said. This is where I am too.

Unfortunately with all the success IT has had since becoming a starter, I do not think he will be able to mentally accept moving back to the bench and into that 6th man role.

This is why I think trading IT (now or in the future) is the option to explore rather than trying (and failing) to move IT back to a 6th man role.

Isaiah is that all star point guard

You just said that he's had all this success, if he's had all this success why go away from him??

I do not believe in players like him.

Undersized PG. Selfish. Shot happy. Terrible defense. Bad rebounder.

Players like this have never won titles as a starting PG. Maybe that will change with the rule changes which have made these type of players more effective than they have been in the past but I am not convinced.

I am still a believer in the old ideology that players like Isaiah are best used as a 6th man sparkplug scorer rather than as a lead guard. 
agree with you regarding IT.  not a fan of his game.  makes some incredible shots but IMHO, a better-run offense wouldn't rely on him having to take those shots.  Really hate his drives down the court just to take a 3 with over 20 seconds left on the shot clock.  he does make a decent percentage but I'd rather see them get layups or draw fouls at the basket than jacking up 3's on the fast break.

as a scorer off the bench, he'd be a real asset.  as the starting PG, he's not enough of a facilitator to keep the job.  sadly, he's better than the other options we have at the moment.  Rozier may grow into that role when IT hits free agency or maybe we use the Nets high lottery pick we'll get this year to get that all-star PG.

Thomas is that All Star Point Guard.
should have said "starting quality" instead of 'all-star'. 

he made an all-star team based on his scoring.  he didn't get there based on his passing, ball handling or defense which, IMHO, are more important benchmarks for a starting PG.  when IT is having a bad shooting night, what else does he bring to the table to help the team win?  if anything, he'll continue to jack up outside shots.  granted, he drives to the hoop more often than the rest of the team (or it seems that way) which is a plus.

I prefer a PG that's a competent scorer but focuses more on getting his teammates involved in the offense.    also, as much as I'd like to see a guy his size succeed in this league, and he is doing quite well, every playoff series he's been in the opposing team picks on his inability to contest shots on D.  need someone who can start and not be pushed out of a playoff game for being a liability.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2016, 02:11:57 PM »

Offline alewilliam789

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Sorry I just don't believe the Celtics will excel with IT as the starting point guard. I don't care who, (within reason) you pair him with. If you pared him with Cousins, he still wouldn't defer to him. (Been there, done that, the Kings traded him.) We on the other hand are dying to give the pairing another go.

He's a defensive liability, he dominates the ball to score as much as he can. He thinks the more he scores, the better the chances are of a Celtic victory, and that's the way he plays the game, he still showing the NBA what a mistake they made about him at the draft years ago.

Sometimes it just seems to me he would rather challenge at the rim with acrobatic shots, than pass to an open shooter 10-12 feet away.

In a winning scheme, IT would come off the bench, replacing a solid Celtic PG, at opportunistic times during the game. And be very valuable to the team as a 6th man.   

If I'm wrong, and I hope I am, I'll say it.
 


Well said. This is where I am too.

Unfortunately with all the success IT has had since becoming a starter, I do not think he will be able to mentally accept moving back to the bench and into that 6th man role.

This is why I think trading IT (now or in the future) is the option to explore rather than trying (and failing) to move IT back to a 6th man role.

Isaiah is that all star point guard

You just said that he's had all this success, if he's had all this success why go away from him??

I do not believe in players like him.

Undersized PG. Selfish. Shot happy. Terrible defense. Bad rebounder.

Players like this have never won titles as a starting PG. Maybe that will change with the rule changes which have made these type of players more effective than they have been in the past but I am not convinced.

I am still a believer in the old ideology that players like Isaiah are best used as a 6th man sparkplug scorer rather than as a lead guard. 
agree with you regarding IT.  not a fan of his game.  makes some incredible shots but IMHO, a better-run offense wouldn't rely on him having to take those shots.  Really hate his drives down the court just to take a 3 with over 20 seconds left on the shot clock.  he does make a decent percentage but I'd rather see them get layups or draw fouls at the basket than jacking up 3's on the fast break.

as a scorer off the bench, he'd be a real asset.  as the starting PG, he's not enough of a facilitator to keep the job.  sadly, he's better than the other options we have at the moment.  Rozier may grow into that role when IT hits free agency or maybe we use the Nets high lottery pick we'll get this year to get that all-star PG.

Thomas is that All Star Point Guard.
should have said "starting quality" instead of 'all-star'. 

he made an all-star team based on his scoring.  he didn't get there based on his passing, ball handling or defense which, IMHO, are more important benchmarks for a starting PG.  when IT is having a bad shooting night, what else does he bring to the table to help the team win?  if anything, he'll continue to jack up outside shots.  granted, he drives to the hoop more often than the rest of the team (or it seems that way) which is a plus.

I prefer a PG that's a competent scorer but focuses more on getting his teammates involved in the offense.    also, as much as I'd like to see a guy his size succeed in this league, and he is doing quite well, every playoff series he's been in the opposing team picks on his inability to contest shots on D.  need someone who can start and not be pushed out of a playoff game for being a liability.
Clearly you haven't been paying attention to the NBA. What do all the top PGs in the league do really well? They are scoring point guards. Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, I guess now James Harden, Damian Lillard, De'Angelo Russel, all of them besides Westbrook scoring point guards that struggle to defend, Westbrook is a good defender,  at an adequate enough level, probably because they are carrying their offense. IT is our offense and even as good as he is he can't be both our offense and defensive playmaker. The reason our defense is so bad this year is because our defensive playmakers like Crowder and Bradley aren't playing as well as they did last year on that end. Thomas wasn't that great on defense last year and we still had a top flight defensive team. Didn't hear a sit Thomas last year.

Either way you guys got your wish. He's out of the starting lineup and now your guys' hero Smart will step in. This is going to be ugly. Payton has generally got the best of Smart everytime they've played.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2016, 02:44:08 PM »

Offline greece66

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only bench IT will come off this year is all star!!!!
press loves him,fans love him and owners must because the house is packed and we have 22 televised games
remember this is a rebuild  and a long regular season
I'm with Rollie on this one.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2016, 03:45:03 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Sorry I just don't believe the Celtics will excel with IT as the starting point guard. I don't care who, (within reason) you pair him with. If you pared him with Cousins, he still wouldn't defer to him. (Been there, done that, the Kings traded him.) We on the other hand are dying to give the pairing another go.

He's a defensive liability, he dominates the ball to score as much as he can. He thinks the more he scores, the better the chances are of a Celtic victory, and that's the way he plays the game, he still showing the NBA what a mistake they made about him at the draft years ago.

Sometimes it just seems to me he would rather challenge at the rim with acrobatic shots, than pass to an open shooter 10-12 feet away.

In a winning scheme, IT would come off the bench, replacing a solid Celtic PG, at opportunistic times during the game. And be very valuable to the team as a 6th man.   

If I'm wrong, and I hope I am, I'll say it.
 

Well said. This is where I am too.

Unfortunately with all the success IT has had since becoming a starter, I do not think he will be able to mentally accept moving back to the bench and into that 6th man role.

This is why I think trading IT (now or in the future) is the option to explore rather than trying (and failing) to move IT back to a 6th man role.

You just said that he's had all this success, if he's had all this success why go away from him??



He's had success in relationship to a rebuilding basketball team, not a team that will go far into the playoffs, and maybe contend for a ring.

Look at the attributes that everyone respects about Labron, it's his assets, rebounds, and defense that really sets himself apart. He facilitates for his team to get everyone involved, he understands what it takes to win a championship.

IT isn't Harden or Westbrook, he's simply not physically able to dig down and play physical in your face D. They could if they needed to, in a key game or series. He's not built for it.

He IS a great weapon off the bench on a contender. A 6th man of the year candidate.

See, Rosco gets it.

Regular season and playoff ball aren't the same. He may have been an allstar (it remains to be seen whether he makes another one) but there are easily 10 PGs I'd take to the playoffs ahead of him, maybe more.

Which makes him a middle of th road starter rather than the dominant force some of the scoring numbers might suggest.

Who would you take over IT?  Money aside, of course.

Re: I'm finally on board.. Thomas should come off the bench
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2016, 04:25:08 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Sorry I just don't believe the Celtics will excel with IT as the starting point guard. I don't care who, (within reason) you pair him with. If you pared him with Cousins, he still wouldn't defer to him. (Been there, done that, the Kings traded him.) We on the other hand are dying to give the pairing another go.

He's a defensive liability, he dominates the ball to score as much as he can. He thinks the more he scores, the better the chances are of a Celtic victory, and that's the way he plays the game, he still showing the NBA what a mistake they made about him at the draft years ago.

Sometimes it just seems to me he would rather challenge at the rim with acrobatic shots, than pass to an open shooter 10-12 feet away.

In a winning scheme, IT would come off the bench, replacing a solid Celtic PG, at opportunistic times during the game. And be very valuable to the team as a 6th man.   

If I'm wrong, and I hope I am, I'll say it.
 


Well said. This is where I am too.

Unfortunately with all the success IT has had since becoming a starter, I do not think he will be able to mentally accept moving back to the bench and into that 6th man role.

This is why I think trading IT (now or in the future) is the option to explore rather than trying (and failing) to move IT back to a 6th man role.

Isaiah is that all star point guard

You just said that he's had all this success, if he's had all this success why go away from him??

I do not believe in players like him.

Undersized PG. Selfish. Shot happy. Terrible defense. Bad rebounder.

Players like this have never won titles as a starting PG. Maybe that will change with the rule changes which have made these type of players more effective than they have been in the past but I am not convinced.

I am still a believer in the old ideology that players like Isaiah are best used as a 6th man sparkplug scorer rather than as a lead guard. 
agree with you regarding IT.  not a fan of his game.  makes some incredible shots but IMHO, a better-run offense wouldn't rely on him having to take those shots.  Really hate his drives down the court just to take a 3 with over 20 seconds left on the shot clock.  he does make a decent percentage but I'd rather see them get layups or draw fouls at the basket than jacking up 3's on the fast break.

as a scorer off the bench, he'd be a real asset.  as the starting PG, he's not enough of a facilitator to keep the job.  sadly, he's better than the other options we have at the moment.  Rozier may grow into that role when IT hits free agency or maybe we use the Nets high lottery pick we'll get this year to get that all-star PG.

Thomas is that All Star Point Guard.
should have said "starting quality" instead of 'all-star'. 

he made an all-star team based on his scoring.  he didn't get there based on his passing, ball handling or defense which, IMHO, are more important benchmarks for a starting PG.  when IT is having a bad shooting night, what else does he bring to the table to help the team win?  if anything, he'll continue to jack up outside shots.  granted, he drives to the hoop more often than the rest of the team (or it seems that way) which is a plus.

I prefer a PG that's a competent scorer but focuses more on getting his teammates involved in the offense.    also, as much as I'd like to see a guy his size succeed in this league, and he is doing quite well, every playoff series he's been in the opposing team picks on his inability to contest shots on D.  need someone who can start and not be pushed out of a playoff game for being a liability.
Clearly you haven't been paying attention to the NBA. What do all the top PGs in the league do really well? They are scoring point guards. Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, Kyle Lowry, I guess now James Harden, Damian Lillard, De'Angelo Russel, all of them besides Westbrook scoring point guards that struggle to defend, Westbrook is a good defender,  at an adequate enough level, probably because they are carrying their offense. IT is our offense and even as good as he is he can't be both our offense and defensive playmaker. The reason our defense is so bad this year is because our defensive playmakers like Crowder and Bradley aren't playing as well as they did last year on that end. Thomas wasn't that great on defense last year and we still had a top flight defensive team. Didn't hear a sit Thomas last year.

Either way you guys got your wish. He's out of the starting lineup and now your guys' hero Smart will step in. This is going to be ugly. Payton has generally got the best of Smart everytime they've played.
clearly I have been paying attention.  doesn't mean we need one as well.  if we have one that has an outside shot that has to be respected as well as able to drive to the hoop and able to finish or dish to an open teammate, that's what I'd prefer to have.  of course, we need to have teammates that can score when they're fed the ball.  we don't have many that are terribly consistent in that regard unfortunately.

I'm not saying to get rid of IT.  He's a dynamic scorer but that's about it.  ideally we'd have a better option starting ahead of him so he could come off the bench and be the primary scorer that he wants to be (and be in a position to be more effective for the team as a whole)