Mark Cuban: Dallas won't tank.

[LooseCannon]

I never thought Dallas would tank.  They won't be having a firesale.  They are going to be as good as possible while Dirk and Carslile are there.  That should be obvious.

This is what I think also, Carlisle and Nowitzki have always been out to win every game they can so they can make it to the playoffs where, as long as you have a player like Dirk, anything can happen. Yes, I know Dirk is old and unable to be a superduperstar anymore, but I am sure he and Carlisle don't see it that way.

I also don't think Cuban would have anything to do with purposely making his team worse to get a better draft slot.

For those reasons I don't see a major trade off of players or overt tanking. Dallas is more likely to make a trade like they did for Rondo than they are dealing anyone valuable for lesser talent.

Bogut could still be traded to us. We have some pieces that could help. Young and Zeller and some seconds. Bring up our Nader. Win win for us both.

No, its not.

Dallas trades away a center that can anchor a defense, grab more than 10 rebounds a game, is historically an efficient though low scorer and all we give up are two garbage players and two garbage second round picks? No way Dallas does that

I only half agree.  It depends if they intend to keep Bogut beyond this season.  If they're looking at an extension, then no way do they trade him.  But if that doesn't happen, and he won't be with the team next year, I would expect they'd trade him at the deadline if they're still near the bottom of the standings.  And if so, what's Bogut's market?  He's a good player, but he's not a star.  He's a half-season rental with significant injury history, and hasn't made it through to the end of the playoffs in the last three years.  Do you give up a decent prospect for that? Maybe two seconds is a little cheap (although the 2nd we get from Minny could be of decent value by the deadline), but I can't see it being much more than the rather protected 1st we have of the Clippers in 2019.  Most of the potential suitors of Bogut will have 1sts in the 20s.  If the Minny pick looks to be around 35, it's not a huge difference.

EDIT:  I'd point out that Dallas got Bogut and a 2nd in July for a top 55 protected pick in 2019.  The market for him was not terribly high as of 5 months ago.

It wasn't high because Golden State HAD to trade him. Durant announced he was going to GSW, and the dominoes needed to fall. Thus the price dropped.

and they needed a team that had cap room that had need of a center.

That's silly.  Again, GSW traded AWAY a pick to move him.  There are currently 6 teams who still have enough CAP ROOM to have taken Bogut on, now that the season has started.  5 of them are under the salary floor even.  If Bogut should be reasonably expected to bring back a 1st rounder at the trade deadline, why wouldn't one of those teams have just taken him on for free, rather than getting a nominal 2nd in return?  Not to mention that at the time Bogut was traded, there were many other teams that still had cap room and ended up spending a lot more on a center.  Heck, it wouldn't have been very difficult for Boston to create the room to acquire Bogut back in July -- they'd have just had to let Zeller walk and find someone to dump James Young on for a 2nd rounder.  The market for Bogut 5 months ago was clearly sparse, and I find it unlikely that it will magically turn into one that costs a 1st rounder in February should Dallas go that route.

Golden State couldn't get much in return for Bogut because there was an abundance of alternatives and a short time frame.  Now, after the season has started, there is a scarcity of other options if you are searching for big man help.  The cost to trade for Bogut should be higher now than it was in July.

Bogut wanted to go somewhere where he had a chance to earn a longer contract and said he would have tried to force a buy-out if he had landed some place that he didn't want to go.  (Philly was supposedly interested.)  The Warriors reportedly felt they owed it to Bogut to send him somewhere where he had a chance to make the playoffs and supposedly let him choose his destination between competing offers.

For Golden State, Bogut was just a contract that had to be moved to free up cap space to sign Durant.  For Dallas, he is a legitimate piece that might be in their plans beyond this season.  The Mavs should ask for a likely late first (Celtics 2018?) and Demetrius Jackson in return, plus filler salary to satisfy cap rules.

[saltlover]

I never thought Dallas would tank.  They won't be having a firesale.  They are going to be as good as possible while Dirk and Carslile are there.  That should be obvious.

This is what I think also, Carlisle and Nowitzki have always been out to win every game they can so they can make it to the playoffs where, as long as you have a player like Dirk, anything can happen. Yes, I know Dirk is old and unable to be a superduperstar anymore, but I am sure he and Carlisle don't see it that way.

I also don't think Cuban would have anything to do with purposely making his team worse to get a better draft slot.

For those reasons I don't see a major trade off of players or overt tanking. Dallas is more likely to make a trade like they did for Rondo than they are dealing anyone valuable for lesser talent.

Bogut could still be traded to us. We have some pieces that could help. Young and Zeller and some seconds. Bring up our Nader. Win win for us both.

No, its not.

Dallas trades away a center that can anchor a defense, grab more than 10 rebounds a game, is historically an efficient though low scorer and all we give up are two garbage players and two garbage second round picks? No way Dallas does that

I only half agree.  It depends if they intend to keep Bogut beyond this season.  If they're looking at an extension, then no way do they trade him.  But if that doesn't happen, and he won't be with the team next year, I would expect they'd trade him at the deadline if they're still near the bottom of the standings.  And if so, what's Bogut's market?  He's a good player, but he's not a star.  He's a half-season rental with significant injury history, and hasn't made it through to the end of the playoffs in the last three years.  Do you give up a decent prospect for that? Maybe two seconds is a little cheap (although the 2nd we get from Minny could be of decent value by the deadline), but I can't see it being much more than the rather protected 1st we have of the Clippers in 2019.  Most of the potential suitors of Bogut will have 1sts in the 20s.  If the Minny pick looks to be around 35, it's not a huge difference.

EDIT:  I'd point out that Dallas got Bogut and a 2nd in July for a top 55 protected pick in 2019.  The market for him was not terribly high as of 5 months ago.

It wasn't high because Golden State HAD to trade him. Durant announced he was going to GSW, and the dominoes needed to fall. Thus the price dropped.

and they needed a team that had cap room that had need of a center.

That's silly.  Again, GSW traded AWAY a pick to move him.  There are currently 6 teams who still have enough CAP ROOM to have taken Bogut on, now that the season has started.  5 of them are under the salary floor even.  If Bogut should be reasonably expected to bring back a 1st rounder at the trade deadline, why wouldn't one of those teams have just taken him on for free, rather than getting a nominal 2nd in return?  Not to mention that at the time Bogut was traded, there were many other teams that still had cap room and ended up spending a lot more on a center.  Heck, it wouldn't have been very difficult for Boston to create the room to acquire Bogut back in July -- they'd have just had to let Zeller walk and find someone to dump James Young on for a 2nd rounder.  The market for Bogut 5 months ago was clearly sparse, and I find it unlikely that it will magically turn into one that costs a 1st rounder in February should Dallas go that route.

Golden State couldn't get much in return for Bogut because there was an abundance of alternatives and a short time frame.  Now, after the season has started, there is a scarcity of other options if you are searching for big man help.  The cost to trade for Bogut should be higher now than it was in July.

Bogut wanted to go somewhere where he had a chance to earn a longer contract and said he would have tried to force a buy-out if he had landed some place that he didn't want to go.  (Philly was supposedly interested.)  The Warriors reportedly felt they owed it to Bogut to send him somewhere where he had a chance to make the playoffs and supposedly let him choose his destination between competing offers.

For Golden State, Bogut was just a contract that had to be moved to free up cap space to sign Durant.  For Dallas, he is a legitimate piece that might be in their plans beyond this season.  The Mavs should ask for a likely late first (Celtics 2018?) and Demetrius Jackson in return, plus filler salary to satisfy cap rules.

Again, it's not that Golden State didn't get much in return.  They didn't get ANYTHING in return.  They had to give up something to move him.  He had negative value.  Now, the Warriors didn't have to give away much -- only a 2nd rounder in 2019 or 2020, Mavs choice, so his value wasn't terribly negative.  But it was negative, and presumably other teams wanted more compensation from the Warriors for taking him on.

And let's not pretend that either a) there were no teams with cap room, or b) teams with cap room were waiting for better options.  As already stated, SIX teams still have cap room to this day -- they never found anything better to do with it, and most of them never had the intention of doing so.  The Jazz are trying to make the playoffs, it has been their goal since before last offseason, are way under the cap, and are giving Jeff Withey 10 minutes a game at center.  Minnesota is craving veteran leadership and still is under the cap.  The Wizards gave Ian Mahinmi $64 million over four years to be a backup after they missed out on all the other bigs they were targeting in free agency (Horford, Howard, Gasol) but certainly while the Warriors were shopping Bogut.

And again, part of the point is this -- if teams believed they could get a 1st for Bogut in February, why wouldn't they have been lining up to get him for free in July? It's simple arbitrage -- certainly a team would have done so.  That Bogut's value was even slightly negative should demonstrate this wasn't the case -- teams didn't think in July they could flip Bogut for a first 6 months later.  So if you think he's worth a first now, what has he shown to make you think his value has spiked?  He's shooting abysmally -- 43%.  His rebounds have been good, but his turnovers are also up, his blocks have been cut in half, and his assists are down.  I'm not saying counting stats for a month are all that matter, but there's certainly no evidence that his value should have increased.  It much more likely has gone the other direction.

[spikelovetheCelts]

I never thought Dallas would tank.  They won't be having a firesale.  They are going to be as good as possible while Dirk and Carslile are there.  That should be obvious.

This is what I think also, Carlisle and Nowitzki have always been out to win every game they can so they can make it to the playoffs where, as long as you have a player like Dirk, anything can happen. Yes, I know Dirk is old and unable to be a superduperstar anymore, but I am sure he and Carlisle don't see it that way.

I also don't think Cuban would have anything to do with purposely making his team worse to get a better draft slot.

For those reasons I don't see a major trade off of players or overt tanking. Dallas is more likely to make a trade like they did for Rondo than they are dealing anyone valuable for lesser talent.

Bogut could still be traded to us. We have some pieces that could help. Young and Zeller and some seconds. Bring up our Nader. Win win for us both.

No, its not.

Dallas trades away a center that can anchor a defense, grab more than 10 rebounds a game, is historically an efficient though low scorer and all we give up are two garbage players and two garbage second round picks? No way Dallas does that

I only half agree.  It depends if they intend to keep Bogut beyond this season.  If they're looking at an extension, then no way do they trade him.  But if that doesn't happen, and he won't be with the team next year, I would expect they'd trade him at the deadline if they're still near the bottom of the standings.  And if so, what's Bogut's market?  He's a good player, but he's not a star.  He's a half-season rental with significant injury history, and hasn't made it through to the end of the playoffs in the last three years.  Do you give up a decent prospect for that? Maybe two seconds is a little cheap (although the 2nd we get from Minny could be of decent value by the deadline), but I can't see it being much more than the rather protected 1st we have of the Clippers in 2019.  Most of the potential suitors of Bogut will have 1sts in the 20s.  If the Minny pick looks to be around 35, it's not a huge difference.

EDIT:  I'd point out that Dallas got Bogut and a 2nd in July for a top 55 protected pick in 2019.  The market for him was not terribly high as of 5 months ago.

It wasn't high because Golden State HAD to trade him. Durant announced he was going to GSW, and the dominoes needed to fall. Thus the price dropped.

and they needed a team that had cap room that had need of a center.

That's silly.  Again, GSW traded AWAY a pick to move him.  There are currently 6 teams who still have enough CAP ROOM to have taken Bogut on, now that the season has started.  5 of them are under the salary floor even.  If Bogut should be reasonably expected to bring back a 1st rounder at the trade deadline, why wouldn't one of those teams have just taken him on for free, rather than getting a nominal 2nd in return?  Not to mention that at the time Bogut was traded, there were many other teams that still had cap room and ended up spending a lot more on a center.  Heck, it wouldn't have been very difficult for Boston to create the room to acquire Bogut back in July -- they'd have just had to let Zeller walk and find someone to dump James Young on for a 2nd rounder.  The market for Bogut 5 months ago was clearly sparse, and I find it unlikely that it will magically turn into one that costs a 1st rounder in February should Dallas go that route.

Golden State couldn't get much in return for Bogut because there was an abundance of alternatives and a short time frame.  Now, after the season has started, there is a scarcity of other options if you are searching for big man help.  The cost to trade for Bogut should be higher now than it was in July.

Bogut wanted to go somewhere where he had a chance to earn a longer contract and said he would have tried to force a buy-out if he had landed some place that he didn't want to go.  (Philly was supposedly interested.)  The Warriors reportedly felt they owed it to Bogut to send him somewhere where he had a chance to make the playoffs and supposedly let him choose his destination between competing offers.

For Golden State, Bogut was just a contract that had to be moved to free up cap space to sign Durant.  For Dallas, he is a legitimate piece that might be in their plans beyond this season.  The Mavs should ask for a likely late first (Celtics 2018?) and Demetrius Jackson in return, plus filler salary to satisfy cap rules.

Again, it's not that Golden State didn't get much in return.  They didn't get ANYTHING in return.  They had to give up something to move him.  He had negative value.  Now, the Warriors didn't have to give away much -- only a 2nd rounder in 2019 or 2020, Mavs choice, so his value wasn't terribly negative.  But it was negative, and presumably other teams wanted more compensation from the Warriors for taking him on.

And let's not pretend that either a) there were no teams with cap room, or b) teams with cap room were waiting for better options.  As already stated, SIX teams still have cap room to this day -- they never found anything better to do with it, and most of them never had the intention of doing so.  The Jazz are trying to make the playoffs, it has been their goal since before last offseason, are way under the cap, and are giving Jeff Withey 10 minutes a game at center.  Minnesota is craving veteran leadership and still is under the cap.  The Wizards gave Ian Mahinmi $64 million over four years to be a backup after they missed out on all the other bigs they were targeting in free agency (Horford, Howard, Gasol) but certainly while the Warriors were shopping Bogut.

And again, part of the point is this -- if teams believed they could get a 1st for Bogut in February, why wouldn't they have been lining up to get him for free in July? It's simple arbitrage -- certainly a team would have done so.  That Bogut's value was even slightly negative should demonstrate this wasn't the case -- teams didn't think in July they could flip Bogut for a first 6 months later.  So if you think he's worth a first now, what has he shown to make you think his value has spiked?  He's shooting abysmally -- 43%.  His rebounds have been good, but his turnovers are also up, his blocks have been cut in half, and his assists are down.  I'm not saying counting stats for a month are all that matter, but there's certainly no evidence that his value should have increased.  It much more likely has gone the other direction.

Bogut does not push the needle to much to tanking if dealt. Amir Johnson would give them just as much and Young or Jackson would have value too. Personally I hope idiot cuban lucked into a championship and messed up all he had. The Kidd trade back to Dallas is his only successful trade or signing.IMO. He is blessed with a top 5 coach that makes him look good.

[green_bballers13]

While the Mavs don't have a long history of success, they have won a championship recently. They have made the playoffs a lot during Dirk's career, and have been a top 10 team of the last 15 years. They should have too much pride to tank. They have a fan base that hopefully is mentally strong to withstand a rebuild with dignity.

I personally think losing games on purpose is taking advantage of the fans and a loophole in the league that allows teams to acquire top talent for not trying.

They are better than perennial losing franchises like Philly, Minny, Phoenix, Washington, etc. I'm glad that Cuban has some respect for the city of Dallas, and hopefully karma will land him (and our Celtics) the next star, regardless of anti-competitive practices across the league.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

While the Mavs don't have a long history of success, they have won a championship recently. They have made the playoffs a lot during Dirk's career, and have been a top 10 team of the last 15 years. They should have too much pride to tank. They have a fan base that hopefully is mentally strong to withstand a rebuild with dignity.

I personally think losing games on purpose is taking advantage of the fans and a loophole in the league that allows teams to acquire top talent for not trying.

They are better than perennial losing franchises like Philly, Minny, Phoenix, Washington, etc. I'm glad that Cuban has some respect for the city of Dallas, and hopefully karma will land him (and our Celtics) the next star, regardless of anti-competitive practices across the league.

 

Boy the detachment from reality is strong on this one. WTH is a rebuild with dignity, overpaying for Harrison Barnes to shoot 28 times a night for the next 4 years while you roll along at a 3-14 pace? That screams dignity to me. They're going to be bad for a long time if they don't hit on a high pick in this draft because the cupboard is bare.

[green_bballers13]

How high of a pick was Dirk? Paul Pierce?

You used Harrison Barnes as an example of a bad signing. I think it is an example of a player willing to go to a team that is not a complete embarrassment. He could have signed in New Orleans, etc. but he picked a place that has won in the recent past.

What you are saying is that unless Dallas tanks, they will stink.

I disagree with this line of thinking. The Mavs can take a page out of Danny's book and trade Dirk before they bottom out.

[celticsclay]

While the Mavs don't have a long history of success, they have won a championship recently. They have made the playoffs a lot during Dirk's career, and have been a top 10 team of the last 15 years. They should have too much pride to tank. They have a fan base that hopefully is mentally strong to withstand a rebuild with dignity.

I personally think losing games on purpose is taking advantage of the fans and a loophole in the league that allows teams to acquire top talent for not trying.

They are better than perennial losing franchises like Philly, Minny, Phoenix, Washington, etc. I'm glad that Cuban has some respect for the city of Dallas, and hopefully karma will land him (and our Celtics) the next star, regardless of anti-competitive practices across the league.

 

Boy the detachment from reality is strong on this one. WTH is a rebuild with dignity, overpaying for Harrison Barnes to shoot 28 times a night for the next 4 years while you roll along at a 3-14 pace? That screams dignity to me. They're going to be bad for a long time if they don't hit on a high pick in this draft because the cupboard is bare.

What is so bad about Harrison Barnes exactly? He is averaging 20.5 points and 5.5 rebounds on 46% shooting with almost no offensive help and I am assuming at least average defense.

What would he have to average to justify his contract?

[Birdman]

There's isn't a Towns or Davis in this class so why would they tank

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

While the Mavs don't have a long history of success, they have won a championship recently. They have made the playoffs a lot during Dirk's career, and have been a top 10 team of the last 15 years. They should have too much pride to tank. They have a fan base that hopefully is mentally strong to withstand a rebuild with dignity.

I personally think losing games on purpose is taking advantage of the fans and a loophole in the league that allows teams to acquire top talent for not trying.

They are better than perennial losing franchises like Philly, Minny, Phoenix, Washington, etc. I'm glad that Cuban has some respect for the city of Dallas, and hopefully karma will land him (and our Celtics) the next star, regardless of anti-competitive practices across the league.

 

Boy the detachment from reality is strong on this one. WTH is a rebuild with dignity, overpaying for Harrison Barnes to shoot 28 times a night for the next 4 years while you roll along at a 3-14 pace? That screams dignity to me. They're going to be bad for a long time if they don't hit on a high pick in this draft because the cupboard is bare.

What is so bad about Harrison Barnes exactly? He is averaging 20.5 points and 5.5 rebounds on 46% shooting with almost no offensive help and I am assuming at least average defense.

What would he have to average to justify his contract?

He's an ok player. There's nothing wrong with Harrison Barnes... But if you're signing the Harrison Barneses of the world to max deals to avoid being bad you're going to top out as a fringe 8 seed unless you pull a Paul George or Leonard out of your behind in the late lotto.

He's at best the 3rd option on a contender, and considering the team with him as their 5th option and 2 of the 10 best shooters ever couldn't win it last year I'm not sure that's the guy I'm tying max money to.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

There's isn't a Towns or Davis in this class so why would they tank

How can you possibly make a declaration like that right now? We haven't even seen this class in conference play yet.

[green_bballers13]

Sounds like other people favor trying to win over losing intentionally. I know you think that is the only way to improve, but it doesn't sit right with a lot of people. After all, this is all just a game- if fans are rooting for their team to lose, they might as well spend their precious time doing something else besides watching basketball.

[Who]

Harrison Barnes' stats are not so hot. The 46% on 17.9 FGAs is a good number .... however:

* only 3.4 FTAs against 18 FGAs is awful.It is awful for any player nevermind an athletic 6-8 SF

* 1.2 assists against 18 FGAs is another awful statistic. Taking that many shots / possessions while barely creating anything for your teammates is bad play.
* 1.2 assists vs 1.4 turnovers gives him a negative AST:TO ratio

* 5.5rpg in 37.5 minutes is a below average figure for a SF. An average rebounding SF gets around 6.5rpg in those minutes. If all 5 positions were getting out-rebounded by 1 board a game, Dallas would be the worst rebounding team in the league. In actuality, they are 26th (-4.2 rebounding differential) so it's not like Barnes is missing rebounds because the rest of the team is cleaning the boards.

On the positive side, the scoring efficiency is solid. A mediocre TS% (52.4%) is helped by the low turnover numbers (1.4 TOs vs 18 FGAs) giving Barnes a solid overall scoring efficiency.

Barnes has typically been a good but unexceptional defender. So good defense, solid scoring, bad passing and bad rebounding. Is that much more than an average player?

[tazzmaniac]

Harrison Barnes' stats are not so hot. The 46% on 17.9 FGAs is a good number .... however:

* only 3.4 FTAs against 18 FGAs is awful.It is awful for any player nevermind an athletic 6-8 SF

* 1.2 assists against 18 FGAs is another awful statistic. Taking that many shots / possessions while barely creating anything for your teammates is bad play.
* 1.2 assists vs 1.4 turnovers gives him a negative AST:TO ratio

* 5.5rpg in 37.5 minutes is a below average figure for a SF. An average rebounding SF gets around 6.5rpg in those minutes. If all 5 positions were getting out-rebounded by 1 board a game, Dallas would be the worst rebounding team in the league. In actuality, they are 26th (-4.2 rebounding differential) so it's not like Barnes is missing rebounds because the rest of the team is cleaning the boards.

On the positive side, the scoring efficiency is solid. A mediocre TS% (52.4%) is helped by the low turnover numbers (1.4 TOs vs 18 FGAs) giving Barnes a solid overall scoring efficiency.

Barnes has typically been a good but unexceptional defender. So good defense, solid scoring, bad passing and bad rebounding. Is that much more than an average player?

I don't think your stats necessarily mean bad passing.  His role has changed to go to scorer on a bad team.  That's going to drive up your FGAs and drive down your assists.  His low turnover numbers suggest his passing hasn't been bad. 

[green_bballers13]

Rebuilding with dignity is to play your best 5 players more than the other ones, and trying to pursue the best players that you can acquire in Free Agency. Tanking is telling season ticket holders that you are going to collect their $, despite not trying as hard as you can.

It's not like the 76ers are giving money back, are they? Free beers? Those fans deserve something.

Please provide a good example of a team that is successful after years (almost 1/2 decade) of embarrassing tanking.

While the Mavs don't have a long history of success, they have won a championship recently. They have made the playoffs a lot during Dirk's career, and have been a top 10 team of the last 15 years. They should have too much pride to tank. They have a fan base that hopefully is mentally strong to withstand a rebuild with dignity.

I personally think losing games on purpose is taking advantage of the fans and a loophole in the league that allows teams to acquire top talent for not trying.



They are better than perennial losing franchises like Philly, Minny, Phoenix, Washington, etc. I'm glad that Cuban has some respect for the city of Dallas, and hopefully karma will land him (and our Celtics) the next star, regardless of anti-competitive practices across the league.

 

Boy the detachment from reality is strong on this one. WTH is a rebuild with dignity, overpaying for Harrison Barnes to shoot 28 times a night for the next 4 years while you roll along at a 3-14 pace? That screams dignity to me. They're going to be bad for a long time if they don't hit on a high pick in this draft because the cupboard is bare.

[Dennis_D]

The Mavs are at 3-15, the worst record in the NBA. Doesn't really matter if they are intentionally tanking or not - they are getting tanking results right now.