Author Topic: The Wolves Young Core  (Read 7474 times)

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The Wolves Young Core
« on: November 28, 2016, 04:26:08 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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The Wolves young core is probably the best in young core in basketball. Good drafting and luck have led them to a great combination of guys who actually compliment each other well.

If you were to rank the Wolves core, number one would pretty obviously go to Towns. He looks like a Horford/Duncan combo.

As I have been watching their games and looking at the stats, I'm starting to wonder if the second best prospect is Lavine, not Wiggins.

Don't get me wrong, Wiggins looks like an All-star, but there is something special about Lavine.

First, let me state that Wiggins just isn't as good as we would think. His scoring has been impressive, but virtually no other part to his game has been good. Most thought he would be an elite defender immediately, but he hasn't even been an average defender yet. He is not rebounding. His court vision is below average. His passing is meh.

And, even after his monstrous start to the season, his shooting is falling back to earth hard. He is shooting 27% from the field and 10% from 3 over the last 5 games. In a lot of ways, his game reminds me of DeRozan, which is still really good, but most people would recognize that, while DeRozan is a star, he is not the same kind of a star as the elite stars in the NBA.

Anyway, he's young. In a few years, he could still develop these parts to this game, but the part that concerns me the most is that he looks less like an elite basketball player and more like an above average basketball player with elite athleticism. His feel for the game is not there in the same way as a player like Towns, or ...

And that brings me to Lavine, who I'm starting to wonder about as the second best prospect on that team. In fact, if the hype machine had been switched between the two players, I wonder if we wouldn't already thing that way.

Lavine has been just as impressive as a scorer, if not moreso, than Wiggins this year: 20 ppg on 46%, 38%, and 89% (flirting with the 50, 40, 90 club). In fact, while he does not get to the line nearly as much as Wiggins (that is Wiggins' primary form of scoring), he is actually finishing at the rim at a higher rate (54% to 38%), even with his slight frame.

Lavine's entire game is actually based around his outside shooting. His form is quick, unorthodox, and consistent (it remind me a lot of T-mac's form). And, unlike Wiggins, he is a natural at all kinds of stepbacks and fadeways.

On top of that, his dribbling seems so natural. He has that feel for getting his defenders slightly off balance before breaking into his moves.

Wiggins is rebounding slightly better than Lavine (4 to 3), but considering Lavine plays guard and Wiggins forward, that seems like a wash.
 
He ran the point guard in his first few seasons, which allowed him to develop his passing skills. He is still not a point guard, but he shows the ability to find open teammates better, without turning the ball over, than Wiggins.

The real plus-minus stats also indicate Lavine has a slightly more positive impact than Wiggins. ORPM 2.41 to 2.03, DRPM -2.29 to -1.96.

Would Lavine's numbers jump up more if he had a usage rate like Wiggins (21 to 28)? Maybe. Sometimes that doesn't transfer over, but I lean towards yes.

Thoughts? I know your reflex might be to stick with Wiggins, but really consider the stats and watch them play. If you come to the conclusion that Wiggins is better, fine. But I'd like to discuss it some.

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2016, 04:36:30 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 I have been an advocate for trading for Zach for a while. Would you trade Crowder for him.

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2016, 04:42:51 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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 I have been an advocate for trading for Zach for a while. Would you trade Crowder for him.

I'd trade Bradley for him. If we traded Crowder our roster would be very unbalanced. We need a wing. Brown can take some of those minutes, but not all of them.

But if you are asking if the value would be equal, then my answer is yes, if CBS was committed to developing him.

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2016, 04:49:44 PM »

Online Moranis

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They need a guy like Bogut on that team.  Someone who can do the dirty work down low because neither Dieng or Towns is that guy. 

Maybe Rubio and Aldrich for Bogut and Barea.  I think that would be the kind of trade that would be beneficial for both teams. 
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Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2016, 04:53:22 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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They need a guy like Bogut on that team.  Someone who can do the dirty work down low because neither Dieng or Towns is that guy. 

Maybe Rubio and Aldrich for Bogut and Barea.  I think that would be the kind of trade that would be beneficial for both teams.

???

Not that I disagree, but I'm curious how you got there from the original post.

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2016, 05:04:38 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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They need a guy like Bogut on that team.  Someone who can do the dirty work down low because neither Dieng or Towns is that guy. 

Maybe Rubio and Aldrich for Bogut and Barea.  I think that would be the kind of trade that would be beneficial for both teams.

Remember when you were talking about how many valuable guys they had on their second contract  :o

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2016, 05:08:11 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The Wolves young core is probably the best in young core in basketball. Good drafting and luck have led them to a great combination of guys who actually compliment each other well.

If you were to rank the Wolves core, number one would pretty obviously go to Towns. He looks like a Horford/Duncan combo.

As I have been watching their games and looking at the stats, I'm starting to wonder if the second best prospect is Lavine, not Wiggins.

Don't get me wrong, Wiggins looks like an All-star, but there is something special about Lavine.

First, let me state that Wiggins just isn't as good as we would think. His scoring has been impressive, but virtually no other part to his game has been good. Most thought he would be an elite defender immediately, but he hasn't even been an average defender yet. He is not rebounding. His court vision is below average. His passing is meh.

And, even after his monstrous start to the season, his shooting is falling back to earth hard. He is shooting 27% from the field and 10% from 3 over the last 5 games. In a lot of ways, his game reminds me of DeRozan, which is still really good, but most people would recognize that, while DeRozan is a star, he is not the same kind of a star as the elite stars in the NBA.

Anyway, he's young. In a few years, he could still develop these parts to this game, but the part that concerns me the most is that he looks less like an elite basketball player and more like an above average basketball player with elite athleticism. His feel for the game is not there in the same way as a player like Towns, or ...

And that brings me to Lavine, who I'm starting to wonder about as the second best prospect on that team. In fact, if the hype machine had been switched between the two players, I wonder if we wouldn't already thing that way.

Lavine has been just as impressive as a scorer, if not moreso, than Wiggins this year: 20 ppg on 46%, 38%, and 89% (flirting with the 50, 40, 90 club). In fact, while he does not get to the line nearly as much as Wiggins (that is Wiggins' primary form of scoring), he is actually finishing at the rim at a higher rate (54% to 38%), even with his slight frame.

Lavine's entire game is actually based around his outside shooting. His form is quick, unorthodox, and consistent (it remind me a lot of T-mac's form). And, unlike Wiggins, he is a natural at all kinds of stepbacks and fadeways.

On top of that, his dribbling seems so natural. He has that feel for getting his defenders slightly off balance before breaking into his moves.

Wiggins is rebounding slightly better than Lavine (4 to 3), but considering Lavine plays guard and Wiggins forward, that seems like a wash.
 
He ran the point guard in his first few seasons, which allowed him to develop his passing skills. He is still not a point guard, but he shows the ability to find open teammates better, without turning the ball over, than Wiggins.

The real plus-minus stats also indicate Lavine has a slightly more positive impact than Wiggins. ORPM 2.41 to 2.03, DRPM -2.29 to -1.96.

Would Lavine's numbers jump up more if he had a usage rate like Wiggins (21 to 28)? Maybe. Sometimes that doesn't transfer over, but I lean towards yes.

Thoughts? I know your reflex might be to stick with Wiggins, but really consider the stats and watch them play. If you come to the conclusion that Wiggins is better, fine. But I'd like to discuss it some.

Curious what you mean by this. At this point Demar Derozan is the best player on the second best team in the east that made it 6 games in the ECF last year. This year he is averaging 30.2 points a game 5 rebounds and 4 assists. He is continuing to improve his numbers every year and is now 27. What would this guy have to do to be considered a real star?


Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2016, 05:10:08 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Zach can't go left, no left hand at all.  He relies a lot on his athleticism.  I think Wiggins will be better.

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2016, 05:16:16 PM »

Online Moranis

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They need a guy like Bogut on that team.  Someone who can do the dirty work down low because neither Dieng or Towns is that guy. 

Maybe Rubio and Aldrich for Bogut and Barea.  I think that would be the kind of trade that would be beneficial for both teams.

???

Not that I disagree, but I'm curious how you got there from the original post.
because that young core has 5 wins and they have too many young guards and I just don't like the Towns and Dieng pairing (at least as full time starter types).  So thinking of what would make sense, I think a guy like Bogut makes sense and I also think a guy like Barea is the exact type of veteran that makes more sense in the backcourt.  Much better shooter than Rubio, but not a scoring first guy like Lavine or Wiggins.  Barea also isn't a guy that would feel slighted coming off the bench like Rubio might (so when Dunn is ready, Dunn is a go).
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Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2016, 05:58:02 PM »

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Celticsclay, would you say that DeRozan is on the same level as Davis, Durant, Curry, James, Harden, Westbrook, Cousins, George, Paul, Griffin, or Leonard?

I'd say he is at the top of the next tier, but he is not at the same level as those players.

Advanced stats have never loved him. He is ranked 10th in RPM as a shooting guard this year. Last year he was 23th. He has got a little Rudy Gay to his game.

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2016, 06:04:01 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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Zach can't go left, no left hand at all.  He relies a lot on his athleticism.  I think Wiggins will be better.

I've seen that a bit, but he doesn't rely on his drives to score. He is a shooter first with the moves to drive right.

Wiggins on the other hand is a driver to score, but he really relies on athleticism and not the "wiggle."

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2016, 06:10:25 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Celticsclay, would you say that DeRozan is on the same level as Davis, Durant, Curry, James, Harden, Westbrook, Cousins, George, Paul, Griffin, or Leonard?

I'd say he is at the top of the next tier, but he is not at the same level as those players.

Advanced stats have never loved him. He is ranked 10th in RPM as a shooting guard this year. Last year he was 23th. He has got a little Rudy Gay to his game.

I would say he is as good as some of those players. He is really pretty similar to Griffin, Harden,  Cousins and George. What makes those players so much better? If you pair Griffin with Lowry and Valuncias and the rest of the Raptor roster is that team any better than second in the east? If you put Harden on there are they any better or worse? Derozen flies under the radar because he doesn't have the ferocious dunks of Griffin or the flashy marketing of Harden and his beard. However, Harden has played with a similar level of talent as Derozen the last few years and his team, except for one year when they had a high performing bench? I was higher on George at one point because he seems to be a complete player, but what are his teams doing?

Derozen really gets a raw deal from playing in Canada and being best at long range jumpers which couldn't be less exciting in a highlight.

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2016, 06:12:55 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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 I have been an advocate for trading for Zach for a while. Would you trade Crowder for him.

I'd trade Bradley for him. If we traded Crowder our roster would be very unbalanced. We need a wing. Brown can take some of those minutes, but not all of them.

But if you are asking if the value would be equal, then my answer is yes, if CBS was committed to developing him.

I'd trade Smart for LaVine lol. Not that they'd accept it, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd think about trading Crowder for him, and I probably wouldn't trade Bradley for him.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2016, 06:14:49 PM »

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Celticsclay, would you say that DeRozan is on the same level as Davis, Durant, Curry, James, Harden, Westbrook, Cousins, George, Paul, Griffin, or Leonard?

I'd say he is at the top of the next tier, but he is not at the same level as those players.

Advanced stats have never loved him. He is ranked 10th in RPM as a shooting guard this year. Last year he was 23th. He has got a little Rudy Gay to his game.

I would say he is as good as some of those players. He is really pretty similar to Griffin, Harden,  Cousins and George. What makes those players so much better? If you pair Griffin with Lowry and Valuncias and the rest of the Raptor roster is that team any better than second in the east? If you put Harden on there are they any better or worse? Derozen flies under the radar because he doesn't have the ferocious dunks of Griffin or the flashy marketing of Harden and his beard. However, Harden has played with a similar level of talent as Derozen the last few years and his team, except for one year when they had a high performing bench? I was higher on George at one point because he seems to be a complete player, but what are his teams doing?

Derozen really gets a raw deal from playing in Canada and being best at long range jumpers which couldn't be less exciting in a highlight.

Fair enough. I disagree, but trying to get a consensus of ranking players is impossible.

Since I view Wiggins as similar to DeRozan or Gay, I assess his ceiling as a secondary star.

That might explain how high I am on Lavine.

Re: The Wolves Young Core
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2016, 06:31:40 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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 I have been an advocate for trading for Zach for a while. Would you trade Crowder for him.

I'd trade Bradley for him. If we traded Crowder our roster would be very unbalanced. We need a wing. Brown can take some of those minutes, but not all of them.

But if you are asking if the value would be equal, then my answer is yes, if CBS was committed to developing him.

I'd trade Smart for LaVine lol. Not that they'd accept it, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd think about trading Crowder for him, and I probably wouldn't trade Bradley for him.
Yeah LaVine is one of those 2014 draftees taken after Smart that is arguably outplaying him.