2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread (We Did It Guys! Fireworks!!!)

[kraidstar]

I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.

 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

Why the Otto Porter hate?  He's playing good D and Shooting an absurd 45 percent from 3 this season.

Otto Porter is great, but any metric thats got him 2x as good as Paul ****ing George is a flawed metric.

I think Otto Porter can be like a great "Plan D and beyond" option if we whiff on every single FA and Draft Day trade.

I like Otto Porter a lot, but I don't know that he'll become a star offensively. He isn't much of a creator, without Beal and Wall his offense would really suffer. I like his efficiency though, he's a terrific "passive" scorer.

I love his defensive production, I think overall he can be a better version of Tayshaun Prince, maybe not quite as scrappy, but more athletic, and a more efficient shooter.

Which would be pretty darn good.

Washington likely throws boatloads of cash at him, though, they will want to keep that young core intact.

What is crazy is Porter  and Bradley Beal are both just 23, and Wall is 26. There is still a lot of room for growth on that club, they could be scary in a few years.

[Phantom255x]

I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.

 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

Why the Otto Porter hate?  He's playing good D and Shooting an absurd 45 percent from 3 this season.

Otto Porter is great, but any metric thats got him 2x as good as Paul ****ing George is a flawed metric.

I think Otto Porter can be like a great "Plan D and beyond" option if we whiff on every single FA and Draft Day trade.

I like Otto Porter a lot, but I don't know that he'll become a star offensively. He isn't much of a creator, without Beal and Wall his offense would really suffer. I like his efficiency though, he's a terrific "passive" scorer.

I love his defensive production, I think overall he can be a better version of Tayshaun Prince, maybe not quite as scrappy, but more athletic, and a more efficient shooter.

Which would be pretty darn good.

Washington likely throws boatloads of cash at him, though, they will want to keep that young core intact.

What is crazy is Porter  and Bradley Beal are both just 23, and Wall is 26. There is still a lot of room for growth on that club, they could be scary in a few years.

Yeah true, I think he stays with Washington.

But as I said, if they whiff on everyone and every possible trade avenue available, I think the C's should think hard about Porter.

[Phantom255x]

Hayward left the game due to Food Poisoning and had like 3 points in just 9 minutes.

Jazz still won. Series tied 2-2.

Best course of action is probably Clippers win this series and then get spanked by the Warriors second round.

[RockinRyA]

I have no grasp at all as to why people have been so obsessed with Hayward.   

This is the first season in his career that he's actually putting up star like numbers,  and it happens to be a contract year on a team where his defensive limitations are masked by playing alongside one of the top 2 or 3 rim protectors in the nba.

Put him on the Celtics with a fresh fat contract as a 2nd option behind Thomas and his scoring will drop significantly (expect 17-18 PPG), and his weak defence will be exposed once he's playing with Horfrd and Amir instead of Gobert and Favors.

He's overrated,  he's always been overrated,  and if Boston gives him a max deal it will be the biggest mistake they've made since giving Horford a max - which currently already like like one of the top 3 or 4 dumbest signings of this past off-season

Got want this team to be financially crippled for the next half decade thanks to paying $55m -$60m to a pair of fringe stars? If so then sign Hayward.

Atlanta Hawks 2.0 - lets do this!!

The Hawks had lottery picks? Stop spouting nonsense. We have more opportunity to grow and improve than the Hawks teams that was actually good but had injury problems.

 Its not about scoring alone, its shot creation. He may average lower, but the impact is different because it allows another option in offense, someone who can create his own shot that it makes focusing on IT a bit risky. 

[Phantom255x]

Hayward has 26 points tonight, though the Warriors are defending him well.

Not a great shooting night for him (7/18), but he's actually played some solid defense.

[Phantom255x]

For the post season, Hayward is averaging 24/7/3 on 46% shooting (40% 3 point shooting), and he's knocking down FT's VERY WELL (95%)

I'm noticing that he's being defended really well by Golden State, and yet he managed 29 points and 6 assists tonight.

Idk if I still want him though (read the "Warming to the Idea..." thread I made)

[Ilikesports17]

I have no grasp at all as to why people have been so obsessed with Hayward.   

This is the first season in his career that he's actually putting up star like numbers,  and it happens to be a contract year on a team where his defensive limitations are masked by playing alongside one of the top 2 or 3 rim protectors in the nba.

First year he has played like a true star, but hes put up at least 19/5/4 each of the last 3 years.

Put him on the Celtics with a fresh fat contract as a 2nd option behind Thomas and his scoring will drop significantly (expect 17-18 PPG), and his weak defence will be exposed once he's playing with Horfrd and Amir instead of Gobert and Favors.

I dont think he is a bad defender, but yes, he would look worse without Gobert.

He's overrated,  he's always been overrated,

last time he was  FA, he was underrated. Utah forced him to find another team to give him the max, plenty of people here preferred Jeff Green.

and if Boston gives him a max deal it will be the biggest mistake they've made since giving Horford a max - which currently already like like one of the top 3 or 4 dumbest signings of this past off-season

lol, no it doesnt. That is just a terrible take. Horford was a good signing, and even if you hated him, he was a way better signing then Noah, Parsons, Mozgov, Deng, Barnes, Turner etc etc

Got want this team to be financially crippled for the next half decade thanks to paying $55m -$60m to a pair of fringe stars? If so then sign Hayward.

Atlanta Hawks 2.0 - lets do this!!

yeah thats another stupid take. I missed the part where Atlanta had 2 top 4 picks.

[Phantom255x]

LOL TNT in their "gone fishing" segment had Hayward in a CELTICS JERSEY.

They had Paul George in a Lakers jersey when Indiana was eliminated.

Here's my guess on chances of where he goes:

Jazz - 55%
Celtics - 25%
Pacers - 10%
Heat - 5%
Lakers - 5%

Truthfully don't see any other legit options unless a surprise team comes along.

If Boston can advance from this series and make the ECF at least, it would help our cause even more. But I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he decided to stay in Utah.

[jpotter33]

LOL TNT in their "gone fishing" segment had Hayward in a CELTICS JERSEY.

They had Paul George in a Lakers jersey when Indiana was eliminated.

Here's my guess on chances of where he goes:

Jazz - 55%
Celtics - 25%
Pacers - 10%
Heat - 5%
Lakers - 5%

Truthfully don't see any other legit options unless a surprise team comes along.

If Boston can advance from this series and make the ECF at least, it would help our cause even more. But I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he decided to stay in Utah.

I think it's pretty clear that it's down to Utah or Boston at this point. He's not leaving Utah for a terrible team in LA (not his character), a team that didn't make the playoffs in the weaker East (Heat), and for a team that's still probably not as good as Utah even with Hayward (Indiana), especially with George not being a certainty to stay there long-term.

Yeah, if he leaves Utah, it's to Boston, nowhere else.

[Kuberski33]

I wouldn't plan on Hayward coming here.  I would expect him to stay in Utah.

[liam]

I wouldn't plan on Hayward coming here.  I would expect him to stay in Utah.

Hayward has the same problem in Utah that IT has in Boston, the need for another scorer to handle the load in the playoffs. Hayward should come to Boston if he wants to win.

[Quetzalcoatl]

We'd have to renounce / let walk: Amir, Jerebko, Olynyk, Young, Jackson, Mickey and Gerald Green to get the salary, which would free up $25,573,298.  I think that's worth it. 

Then we'd have to free up $ for Zizic, Yabu and our upcoming 1st 2017 rounder. Tyler Zeller's contract is $8 million a year with a team option next year, so we could cut him and free up that money.
https://gettheduckboatsready.com/2016/07/24/the-tyler-zeller-contract-is-genius/

Then, we could trade Crowder and/or Bradley for a position of need.  Like Crowder for Aaron Gordon or something?  If we got Fultz, we could trade Bradley + Crowder + BK 18 for someone really good.

[kozlodoev]

We'd have to renounce / let walk: Amir, Jerebko, Olynyk, Young, Jackson, Mickey and Gerald Green to get the salary, which would free up $25,573,298.  I think that's worth it. 

Then we'd have to free up $ for Zizic, Yabu and our upcoming 1st 2017 rounder. Tyler Zeller's contract is $8 million a year with a team option next year, so we could cut him and free up that money.
https://gettheduckboatsready.com/2016/07/24/the-tyler-zeller-contract-is-genius/

Then, we could trade Crowder and/or Bradley for a position of need.  Like Crowder for Aaron Gordon or something?  If we got Fultz, we could trade Bradley + Crowder + BK 18 for someone really good.

I don't think that's how it works. Zizic, at the very least, should have a cap hold regardless of the fact that he's playing overseas. Same for our future #1 pick.

[jakeopp]

Saw this on Reddit, thoughts?

If he believes he can be a good player 3 years from now it's in his best interest to sign a 3 years + 1 year player option contract and then sign a 35% max for 5 years once he is a 10 year vet after the 3 years. In that case Utah doesn't have much of a financial advantage.

Year  Current Team ($ mil)  Other Team
1                                  30.3                  30.3
2                                  32.7                  31.8
3                                  35.1                  33.3
4 (player option)       37.6                  34.8

Total                          135.7               130.2
First 3 years               98.2                 95.4

For the 3 year lifetime of that contract he will only be losing 2.7 million.

[Tr1boy]

toucher-rich-think-gordon-hayward-celtics-done-deal
http://www.csnne.com/video/toucher-rich-think-gordon-hayward-celtics-done-deal