Author Topic: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread  (Read 7530 times)

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Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2017, 04:15:46 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

A starting front line of Horford and Crowder is just too small, even in today's NBA.

Crowder should not be the full-time starting PF.  That isn't a good idea.

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2017, 04:24:24 PM »

Offline alewilliam789

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2017, 04:43:03 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

I don't see how Crowder is better than Hayward. I mean, based on RPM, Butler is supposedly better than Durant and Kawhi Leonard. I don't think that's the case.

Crowder is a solid role player and starter. Classic 3 and D guy. But Hayward is (deservedly) an all star and is on the bubble for an All NBA appearance (he probably won't make it though). I doubt Crowder would ever make an all star team, even if he was on that Jazz squad. Meanwhile Hayward would still be named an all star here.

Hayward's Defense is abysmal, he's a big step back from Crowder defensively.  If you bring in Hayward for Gordon's slight offensive upgrade you'd better have Rudy Gobert backing him up at the rim because he's not stopping anyone from getting into the lane. 

And remind me again why we need another scorer?  Last time I checked the Celtics had a top 5 NBA offense and were bottom of the pack in rebounding and defense...

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2017, 04:47:49 PM »

Offline CelticSince83

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM. 

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2017, 04:54:50 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I have no grasp at all as to why people have been so obsessed with Hayward.   

This is the first season in his career that he's actually putting up star like numbers,  and it happens to be a contract year on a team where his defensive limitations are masked by playing alongside one of the top 2 or 3 rim protectors in the nba.

Put him on the Celtics with a fresh fat contract as a 2nd option behind Thomas and his scoring will drop significantly (expect 17-18 PPG), and his weak defence will be exposed once he's playing with Horfrd and Amir instead of Gobert and Favors.

He's overrated,  he's always been overrated,  and if Boston gives him a max deal it will be the biggest mistake they've made since giving Horford a max - which currently already like like one of the top 3 or 4 dumbest signings of this past off-season

Got want this team to be financially crippled for the next half decade thanks to paying $55m -$60m to a pair of fringe stars? If so then sign Hayward.

Atlanta Hawks 2.0 - lets do this!!

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2017, 04:55:45 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.

Hayward is a below average defender at his position, if you disagree Please present ANYTHING that that backs up the argument that he's better than people give him credit for. I've been watching him ole' guards into Rudy Gobert all season long.  Hayward is a great offensive player, but Crowder is a more complete player.

I won't disagree that RPM isn't the end-all-be-all but it gives you an idea of the IMPACT a player has for their team when they're on the floor vs being off (hence why Jimmy Butler's excellent play is more crucial to the crappy Bulls than KD, or Kawhi's play on superior teams).  It's actually Hayward's Defensive Real Plus Minus that scares me the most about this trade.  He's not good, at -0.14... As currently constructed the Celtics could compete with the GSW in a series.  Exchanging Crowder for Hayward makes that series less competitive and doesn't help the Celtics get past the Raptors or the Cavs.

 

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2017, 04:59:25 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2017, 05:01:34 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Im not going to argue Crowder is better than Hayward, but I will argue that as overall players any advantage Hayward provides (in either playoffs or regular season)  would be modest enough that it sure as hell does not justify paying him 2x what we are currently paying Crowder and Bradley combined.

Hayward is a mediocre defensive player, and while he's a good offensive player, he's not good enough to be a game changer the way a guy like George, Butler or Carmelo would be on that end.  Crowder has already shown he's capable of putting up big scoring numbers when given the touches, but brad instead insists on giving Marcus Smart (the worst offensive guard in the nba, quite possibly) 10 shots a game.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 05:10:50 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2017, 05:07:35 PM »

Offline CelticSince83

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George. 

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2017, 05:13:08 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

To my understanding,  they measure different things.   Doesnt your simple rating measure production,  while RPM measures on/off impact?

Either way,  rpm isn't flawless either

But fact is that Crowder's team has the 5Th best record in the NBA, and i wouldnt day that Crowder's supporting roster is necessarily any better.

Thomas rose up from being a Hayward caliber player tp being a true superstar, which had boosted the Celtics to the record we have today.  Hayward is supposed to be the Isaiah Thomas of the Jazz, yet hes not close to Thomas' production and his team's record isnt close to Boston's.

With Derrick Favors, Rodney Hood, Rudy Gobert and George Hill on the roster, the Jazz overall talent set is at least as high as Boston's.   They should be better then they are.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 05:20:42 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2017, 05:16:36 PM »

Offline CelticSince83

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

To my understanding,  they measure different things.   Doesnt your simple rating measure production,  while RPM measures on/off impact?

Either way,  rpm isn't flawless either

Simple rating is a combination of 2 outputs.  The first is net production.  The second is on/off court.  I think using both obviously makes the most sense.  But if I had to pick one, I am just thinking the simple rating looks closer to how I rank these players than RPM does. 

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2017, 05:23:57 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

To my understanding,  they measure different things.   Doesnt your simple rating measure production,  while RPM measures on/off impact?

Either way,  rpm isn't flawless either

Simple rating is a combination of 2 outputs.  The first is net production.  The second is on/off court.  I think using both obviously makes the most sense.  But if I had to pick one, I am just thinking the simple rating looks closer to how I rank these players than RPM does.

Not sure I agree, but each to their own.

Hayward has higher statistical production then Crowder (mainly due to Crowder's usage rate, I'd suggest)  but I think Crowder had more impact on a nightly basis.  When hes not scoring hes still making a nice impact on D.  When Hayward isnt scoring he is a waste of court space.

You could day the same about Thomas,  but the difference is that Thomas is ALWAYS scoring.

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2017, 05:29:58 PM »

Offline triboy16f

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I predict that Hayward will be a Celtic come next season.... the writing is on the wall

Offseason transaction

Hayward signs 4 year max with Celts

Crowder, one of Rozier or Yabusele traded (depending if Celts draft Fultz/Ball or Jackson) for picks...   lets say in this case Celts draft Jackson, Hart and trade Yabu

Maybe the Celts can get lucky and sign a decent PF like Taj Gibson for 1 or 2 year deal


2017/2018 Lineup

Horford
Gibson
Hayward
AB
IT4

KO/Zizic
Jackson
Brown
Smart
Rozier/Hart

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2017, 05:35:06 PM »

Offline CelticSince83

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I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.



 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

To my understanding,  they measure different things.   Doesnt your simple rating measure production,  while RPM measures on/off impact?

Either way,  rpm isn't flawless either

But fact is that Crowder's team has the 5Th best record in the NBA, and i wouldnt day that Crowder's supporting roster is necessarily any better.

Thomas rose up from being a Hayward caliber player tp being a true superstar, which had boosted the Celtics to the record we have today.  Hayward is supposed to be the Isaiah Thomas of the Jazz, yet hes not close to Thomas' production and his team's record isnt close to Boston's.

With Derrick Favors, Rodney Hood, Rudy Gobert and George Hill on the roster, the Jazz overall talent set is at least as high as Boston's.   They should be better then they are.

The Jazz record isn't close to Boston's?  They are a game off the Celtics and play in the superior conference.  Can't really agree with that. 

Re: 2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2017, 11:07:41 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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CAREER HIGH 38 Points For Hayward on 16-24 shooting.

And the Jazz lost!

Chances of landing him this summer went up by a fraction of a percent!