2016-2017 Gordon Hayward Thread (We Did It Guys! Fireworks!!!)

[IDreamCeltics]

I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.

 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

Why the Otto Porter hate?  He's playing good D and Shooting an absurd 45 percent from 3 this season.

[Phantom255x]

Hayward has looked rather dull recently.

Okay that might sound kind of absurd when he's still averaging 20/6 the last 10 games.

But hasn't been that great the last few games. 19 points vs. Spurs yesterday.

[Phantom255x]

Hayward with 40 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists and 2 blocks last night on 13-21 shooting.

Also had as many points in the 1st quarter as the whole Clippers team (21).

But Utah lost 111-106. Clippers lead the series 2-1 now.

Utah don't have Gobert but now Clippers don't have Griffin.

I think this is a series that goes 7 games tbh.

[Monkhouse]

Thing is Hayward is a reasonable replacement to Crowder, if we're using Crowder/AB or our picks to bring in a decent big men. Or it makes no sense, unless Hayward improves his dRtG, and isn't a defensive liability for us, since we already have IT, (not knocking him, but he is a defensive sieve,) and our big men rotation is clearly not aggressive enough.

[SHAQATTACK]

I'm starting to lean towards trading Crowder .   Gordon is a Stevens dude though and though.

I'm wondering if Jae is hurt again . 

If we could get Fultz ....trade off KO, Bradley , Crowder , and add another star  ......like George or Hayward we d be better off I think.

We do have too many role players . . We,need to,cash them in and hire a super star.

[Eddie20]

Thing is Hayward is a reasonable replacement to Crowder, if we're using Crowder/AB or our picks to bring in a decent big men. Or it makes no sense, unless Hayward improves his dRtG, and isn't a defensive liability for us, since we already have IT, (not knocking him, but he is a defensive sieve,) and our big men rotation is clearly not aggressive enough.

"Reasonable replacement"? You make it sound as though Crowder is the better player, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Also, Hayward is an excellent defender who possesses great lateral quickness and prevents perpetration. In fact, I will say that Hayward has been a superior defender to Crowder THIS season.

[Monkhouse]

I'm starting to lean towards trading Crowder .   Gordon is a Stevens dude though and though.

I'm wondering if Jae is hurt again . 

If we could get Fultz ....trade off KO, Bradley , Crowder , and add another star  ......like George or Hayward we d be better off I think.

We do have too many role players . . We,need to,cash them in and hire a super star.

Ideally, I want George over Melo or Hayward. I don't care if he costs extra. George is a stud... He's proven it in the playoffs, and how he can carry his team. I wish he wouldn't shoot as much, and try to get more FTA. But I can see the hesitancy considering his past injuries.

[Monkhouse]

Thing is Hayward is a reasonable replacement to Crowder, if we're using Crowder/AB or our picks to bring in a decent big men. Or it makes no sense, unless Hayward improves his dRtG, and isn't a defensive liability for us, since we already have IT, (not knocking him, but he is a defensive sieve,) and our big men rotation is clearly not aggressive enough.

You make it sound as though Crowder is the better player, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Also, Hayward is an excellent defender who possesses great lateral quickness and prevents perpetration. In fact, I will say that Hayward has been a superior defender to Crowder THIS season.

If I did, that wasn't my intention.

I'm actually a huge fan of Hayward. And also could you show me those stats? Maybe, I was misled, I was looking at some statistics, and it tended to favor Crowder more favorably to be honest on the defensive end.

I would love Hayward on this team, but I think he is too much of a loyal guy. Unless we beat the Bulls, and make it to the ECF. I think he's going to at least give Jazz a good chance at trying to convince him to sign.

[Eddie20]

Thing is Hayward is a reasonable replacement to Crowder, if we're using Crowder/AB or our picks to bring in a decent big men. Or it makes no sense, unless Hayward improves his dRtG, and isn't a defensive liability for us, since we already have IT, (not knocking him, but he is a defensive sieve,) and our big men rotation is clearly not aggressive enough.

You make it sound as though Crowder is the better player, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Also, Hayward is an excellent defender who possesses great lateral quickness and prevents perpetration. In fact, I will say that Hayward has been a superior defender to Crowder THIS season.

If I did, that wasn't my intention.

I'm actually a huge fan of Hayward. And also could you show me those stats? Maybe, I was misled, I was looking at some statistics, and it tended to favor Crowder more favorably to be honest on the defensive end.

I would love Hayward on this team, but I think he is too much of a loyal guy. Unless we beat the Bulls, and make it to the ECF. I think he's going to at least give Jazz a good chance at trying to convince him to sign.

This was from CBS Sports' Matt Moore-

Hayward gets the toughest perimeter assignment night in and night out, and the little shreds of points he rips away at opponents' efficiency possession by possession go a long way in making the Jazz so fearsome defensively. Yes, Rudy Gobert is the best rim protector in the league and a Defensive Player of the Year candidate.

But Hayward is what takes them to another level. The Jazz are good all over defensively. Hayward's ability to really limit top-tier offensive wings makes him more central to their level of success than Gobert.

Hayward's lateral quickness is phenomenal. I think that comes from his tennis playing days where side-to-side quickness is paramount. That said, his ability to prevent dribble penetration is top notch (It seems that in this area Crowder seems to be lacking this season). Hayward is a sound defender who has also been helped by the muscle he has gained as earlier in his career he was often knocked out of position. He's a very good all-around defender who is equally good on-the-ball, as he is off-the-ball.

[Phantom255x]

To respond to those talking about rather having Hayward than Crowder:

Couldn't it be possible to have Hayward start and be our #2 scorer, with Crowder off the bench?

I think that could work honestly.

And obviously PG13 is better than Hayward, but ONLY way he comes here is if he agrees to a long term commitment, otherwise Ainge isn't giving up a premium to a rental who seems set on joining the Lakers in a year.

I think Crowder STAYS especially on that bargain of a contract.

Yes, getting Hayward means pretty much losing everyone (KO, Amir, Jerebko, Zeller, Mickey), but if Hayward does come here and Danny drafts with 2017 Nets Pick + trades an excess guard+ pieces for a legitimate big... that would be nice. Now idk exactly who that will be, but we can't roll with just Horford and Zizic... (Zizic still a HUGE unknown as well).

That being said, I predict he stays in Utah especially if they manage to advance past 1st round.

[JHTruth]

To respond to those talking about rather having Hayward than Crowder:

Couldn't it be possible to have Hayward start and be our #2 scorer, with Crowder off the bench?

I think that could work honestly.

And obviously PG13 is better than Hayward, but ONLY way he comes here is if he agrees to a long term commitment, otherwise Ainge isn't giving up a premium to a rental who seems set on joining the Lakers in a year.

I think Crowder STAYS especially on that bargain of a contract.

Yes, getting Hayward means pretty much losing everyone (KO, Amir, Jerebko, Zeller, Mickey), but if Hayward does come here and Danny drafts with 2017 Nets Pick + trades an excess guard+ pieces for a legitimate big... that would be nice. Now idk exactly who that will be, but we can't roll with just Horford and Zizic... (Zizic still a HUGE unknown as well).

That being said, I predict he stays in Utah especially if they manage to advance past 1st round.

So we'd lose a bunch of terrible players and pick up a perfect second scorer. Then draft another scorer, and trade some pieces for an Ibaka or Monroe type and add Zizic, I think we're ready for a real run next year with a bench of Smart, Brown, Jae and Zizic

[Phantom255x]

To respond to those talking about rather having Hayward than Crowder:

Couldn't it be possible to have Hayward start and be our #2 scorer, with Crowder off the bench?

I think that could work honestly.

And obviously PG13 is better than Hayward, but ONLY way he comes here is if he agrees to a long term commitment, otherwise Ainge isn't giving up a premium to a rental who seems set on joining the Lakers in a year.

I think Crowder STAYS especially on that bargain of a contract.

Yes, getting Hayward means pretty much losing everyone (KO, Amir, Jerebko, Zeller, Mickey), but if Hayward does come here and Danny drafts with 2017 Nets Pick + trades an excess guard+ pieces for a legitimate big... that would be nice. Now idk exactly who that will be, but we can't roll with just Horford and Zizic... (Zizic still a HUGE unknown as well).

That being said, I predict he stays in Utah especially if they manage to advance past 1st round.

So we'd lose a bunch of terrible players and pick up a perfect second scorer. Then draft another scorer, and trade some pieces for an Ibaka or Monroe type and add Zizic, I think we're ready for a real run next year with a bench of Smart, Brown, Jae and Zizic

Yeah I think so.

They NEED to get a "bruiser" somehow though. Guy who can rebound and attack/defend the paint well.

[Dannys Chipotle Guy]

I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.

 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

Why the Otto Porter hate?  He's playing good D and Shooting an absurd 45 percent from 3 this season.

Otto Porter is great, but any metric thats got him 2x as good as Paul Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ing George is a flawed metric.

[Phantom255x]

I don't understand the infatuation with Hayward.  He's not better than Crowder.  Why are we obsessed with filling a spot that we aready have a top 10 player in?

In terms of Real Plus Minus top 10 small forwards are currently:

1. Lebron James
2. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Giannis
6. Otto Porter Jr.
7. Jae Crowder
8. Gordon Hayward
9. Trevor Ariza
10. Robert Covington

A lot of people will argue that Paul George should be on this list, but he's not playing defense at an above average level this year and came in 12th in real plus minus among small forwards.

This is a pretty thin argument with Crowder and Hayward being 7 and 8 on the list, what are the numbers? Is it a + 2,3, or 5? Or is it a +.5 or 1 in favor of Crowder?

Also according to the list Butler is a better SF than Durant and Leonard. Crowder is a nice player, but Hayward is more complete,he can play PG, guards better than people give him credit for, and can create his own shot, which is where he really separates himself from Crowder, and something the C's really need.

 Also Hayward can start at SG, and Crowder can start at SF.

 Actually what I think we should do if we sign Hayward is this. Move on from Amir and Start...

 Horford
 Crowder
 Hayward
 Bradley
 Thomas

 This way Crowder and Bradley get to keep their starting role. Smart is the ultimate Swiss army knife off the bench.

 Brown can fill in minutes at the two, three, and four. Plus we are adding, Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum.

 That 8 man rotation is insane. Plus Zizic, Yabu, Rozier. Gotta love that team.

Unfortunately that rotation would probably be too small. I would try and move Bradley for a starting PF or go after Ibaka or Gibson.

PG: IT
SG: Hayward
SF: Crowder
PF: Gibson
C: Horford


You play that with Fultz and Brown and bring in the overseas bigs and you got yourself a dangerous team.

Yeah, a Crowder-Horford front court is problematic, way too small.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Jazz winning 50 games in the west despite their best player (Hayward) being worse than Jae Crowder.  Hayward's simple rating is like 2.5x Crowder's, which is just as good of, if not better statistic than RPM.  Small forwards by simple rating go:
1. LeBron 17.4
2. Durant 17.2
3. Kawhi 14.5
4. Butler 13.8
5. Giannis 12.9
6. Hayward 12.1
7. Paul George 7.0
8. Crowder 4.8
9. Porter 4.8
10. Ariza 1.7

Not perfect, but this makes a lot more sense to me (especially considering the deviation) than the list using RPM.

Your simple rating lists Hayward as being twice as effective as Paul George. That is a farce.

Yet more realistic than RPM which lists Otto Porter as nearly 2x effective as Paul George.

Why the Otto Porter hate?  He's playing good D and Shooting an absurd 45 percent from 3 this season.

Otto Porter is great, but any metric thats got him 2x as good as Paul ****ing George is a flawed metric.

I think Otto Porter can be like a great "Plan D and beyond" option if we whiff on every single FA and Draft Day trade. 

[kraidstar]

To respond to those talking about rather having Hayward than Crowder:

Couldn't it be possible to have Hayward start and be our #2 scorer, with Crowder off the bench?

I think that could work honestly.

And obviously PG13 is better than Hayward, but ONLY way he comes here is if he agrees to a long term commitment, otherwise Ainge isn't giving up a premium to a rental who seems set on joining the Lakers in a year.

I think Crowder STAYS especially on that bargain of a contract.

Yes, getting Hayward means pretty much losing everyone (KO, Amir, Jerebko, Zeller, Mickey), but if Hayward does come here and Danny drafts with 2017 Nets Pick + trades an excess guard+ pieces for a legitimate big... that would be nice. Now idk exactly who that will be, but we can't roll with just Horford and Zizic... (Zizic still a HUGE unknown as well).

That being said, I predict he stays in Utah especially if they manage to advance past 1st round.

I'd take a shot on George.

If he comes here we win 55-60 games, and still have assets to improve further. We would be a destination.

No way he leaves for a 25-30-win Laker team. He'd also be giving up a ton of money, as we'd own his bird rights. And I think once he got here he would be pretty excited about our fans and the city. If he's been a pretty good soldier in Indy, IMO he would LOVE it here.