Author Topic: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!  (Read 5730 times)

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Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2016, 05:27:45 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I'm making six figures and was Philsophy in undergrad.  One of my best attributes as an employee is my critical thinking and problem solving, which were greatly enhanced by my philosophy courses.  Other co-workers have better technical skills, but we work well as a team.  I don't regret my philosophy experience at all.

In what field are you working in? While I get the idea that you believe Philosophy has helped you reach 6 figures, I can't help but believe that Philosophy isn't the degree that made you 6 figures. I'm under the assumption that you have a Master's in something else?

Philosophy trains you in analytical reasoning, writing, and communication, which is of crucial importance in many differing professional areas.

While it's true that most professional philosophers are academics, many business people, lawyers/judges, and professional researchers have solid backgrounds in philosophy, because it teaches you the skills of the trade and how to process information analytically.

Philosophy is also an extremely broad field that deals with everything from the most theoretical of theoretical knowledge to extremely practical issues, such as normative and applied ethics (everything from bioethics to business ethics), environmental philosophy, philosophy of law (law is pretty much non-existent without morality, which is philosophy), philosophy of religion, and political philosophy. Pretty much anytime that someone argues about religion or politics, they're actually engaging the philosophy of religion and or social and political philosophy.

For example, I have my Master of Arts in Philosophy, and I am currently writing my dissertation for my PhD in Health Care Ethics, which is basically an interdisciplinary philosophy degree. With this degree, I will have numerous practical job applications to choose from - everything from your normal academic and/or think tank stuff to more practical applications as a clinical ethicist in hospitals, member of Institutional Review Boards for normatively evaluating research protocols, among other job areas.

I imagine that you have spent most of your time in the more theoretical arenas of philosophy, such as metaphysics, epistemology, and logic, which, I will admit, are pretty bland and impractical in many ways. But philosophy as a whole is one of the most necessary disciplines in academia because of the fundamental tools of reasoning that it develops and its broad realm of application in virtually every other discipline.

P.S. - Saltlover, I didn't know that you had a philosophy background. What areas did you particularly study?

EDIT: To further show it's prominence, here's a list of famous celebrities with philosophy backgrounds:
Ricky Gervais (Comedian)
Phil Jackson (NBA Coach/GM)
Quin Snyder (NBA Coach)
Bruce Lee (Martial Artist)
George Soros (Business Mogul)
Alex Trebek (Game Show Host)
Steve Martin (Actor)
Ethan Coen (Film Producer/Creator)
Peter Thiel (Business Mogul)
Aung San Suu Kyi (Nobel Peace Prize Winner)
John Paul II (Pope)
Wes Craven (Movie Director)
Stephen Breyer (Supreme Court Justice)
Carly Fiorina (Business)
Juan Williams (Journalist)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 05:36:43 PM by jpotter33 »

Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2016, 05:34:51 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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People who are obsessed with employment rates and think everyone else thinks the same way with academics are ridiculous.  American academics are so stupid and a lot of ways and it's because of that kind of thinking.  No focus on the journey and the actual learning

Nevermind they are always basically wrong about it too.  I heard the same thing being an English major, that there are only teachers who have the degree, when English majors end up seriously everywhere.

If you want a finance job, go study that and just leave everyone else alone to study whatever they choose.
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Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2016, 05:44:34 PM »

Offline CelticD

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I'm making six figures and was Philsophy in undergrad.  One of my best attributes as an employee is my critical thinking and problem solving, which were greatly enhanced by my philosophy courses.  Other co-workers have better technical skills, but we work well as a team.  I don't regret my philosophy experience at all.

In what field are you working in? While I get the idea that you believe Philosophy has helped you reach 6 figures, I can't help but believe that Philosophy isn't the degree that made you 6 figures. I'm under the assumption that you have a Master's in something else?

Philosophy trains you in analytical reasoning, writing, and communication, which is of crucial importance in many differing professional areas.

While it's true that most professional philosophers are academics, many business people, lawyers/judges, and professional researchers have solid backgrounds in philosophy, because it teaches you the skills of the trade and how to process information analytically.

Philosophy is also an extremely broad field that deals with everything from the most theoretical of theoretical knowledge to extremely practical issues, such as normative and applied ethics (everything from bioethics to business ethics), environmental philosophy, philosophy of law (law is pretty much non-existent without morality, which is philosophy), philosophy of religion, and political philosophy. Pretty much anytime that someone argues about religion or politics, they're actually engaging the philosophy of religion and or social and political philosophy.

For example, I have my Master of Arts in Philosophy, and I am currently writing my dissertation for my PhD in Health Care Ethics, which is basically an interdisciplinary philosophy degree. With this degree, I will have numerous practical job applications to choose from - everything from your normal academic and/or think tank stuff to more practical applications as a clinical ethicist in hospitals, member of Institutional Review Boards for normatively evaluating research protocols, among other job areas.

I imagine that you have spent most of your time in the more theoretical arenas of philosophy, such as metaphysics, epistemology, and logic, which, I will admit, are pretty bland and impractical in many ways. But philosophy as a whole is one of the most necessary disciplines in academia because of the fundamental tools of reasoning that it develops and its broad realm of application in virtually every other discipline.

P.S. - Saltlover, I didn't know that you had a philosophy background. What areas did you particularly study?

Ya I'm still in the infant stages of Philosophy (i.e. epistemology, logic etc.) but I just can't understand how philosophy makes you think more practically. I'm with eja117. Philosophy seems like one of those degrees where you have to follow it up with something more technical to do anything useful with it.

A class that attempts to teach you how to think by teaching you how other people think in no way helps you think on your own.

(I believe this is a philosophically inductive argument? I have a philosophy midterm on Monday please let me know if this is correct!)

Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2016, 05:53:45 PM »

Offline Smartacus

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Great Nietzsche quote jpotter. TP.

I was able to dabble in philosophy courses when getting my undergrad in Comm and definitely found them to be beneficial to my world view and analytical thinking skills.

Learning about the logical fallacies that come up in civil debate is one of those things that not only aide your own cognitive development but allow you to better determine if a person in a position of power's platform is based on sound and cogent arguments or if they are using common tricks to steer public opinion in their direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Some of my favorites...
Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) – I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false.[15][16]

Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio) – where the conclusion is based on the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.[19][20]

Argumentum ad hominem – the claim that a position is incorrect or an argument invalid because of something not about the position but about the person taking it.

If your not familiar with these you'll be amazed at how often people that are seemingly intelligent and capable build there arguments on shaky ground based on their own prejudices. You might (most likely will) even find issues with you own world view.

Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2016, 05:53:47 PM »

Offline CelticD

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People who are obsessed with employment rates and think everyone else thinks the same way with academics are ridiculous.  American academics are so stupid and a lot of ways and it's because of that kind of thinking.  No focus on the journey and the actual learning

Nevermind they are always basically wrong about it too.  I heard the same thing being an English major, that there are only teachers who have the degree, when English majors end up seriously everywhere.

If you want a finance job, go study that and just leave everyone else alone to study whatever they choose.

I've seen a couple of people say this but in my original post, I explicitly say "Never mind the high unemployment rates of Philosophy majors, or the low initial starting salary of someone starting in that field..."

I don't consider myself an "academic" and I acknowledge terms like "enlightenment" and "consciousness" but I just don't think those things can be taught.

Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2016, 06:05:08 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I'm making six figures and was Philsophy in undergrad.  One of my best attributes as an employee is my critical thinking and problem solving, which were greatly enhanced by my philosophy courses.  Other co-workers have better technical skills, but we work well as a team.  I don't regret my philosophy experience at all.

In what field are you working in? While I get the idea that you believe Philosophy has helped you reach 6 figures, I can't help but believe that Philosophy isn't the degree that made you 6 figures. I'm under the assumption that you have a Master's in something else?

Philosophy trains you in analytical reasoning, writing, and communication, which is of crucial importance in many differing professional areas.

While it's true that most professional philosophers are academics, many business people, lawyers/judges, and professional researchers have solid backgrounds in philosophy, because it teaches you the skills of the trade and how to process information analytically.

Philosophy is also an extremely broad field that deals with everything from the most theoretical of theoretical knowledge to extremely practical issues, such as normative and applied ethics (everything from bioethics to business ethics), environmental philosophy, philosophy of law (law is pretty much non-existent without morality, which is philosophy), philosophy of religion, and political philosophy. Pretty much anytime that someone argues about religion or politics, they're actually engaging the philosophy of religion and or social and political philosophy.

For example, I have my Master of Arts in Philosophy, and I am currently writing my dissertation for my PhD in Health Care Ethics, which is basically an interdisciplinary philosophy degree. With this degree, I will have numerous practical job applications to choose from - everything from your normal academic and/or think tank stuff to more practical applications as a clinical ethicist in hospitals, member of Institutional Review Boards for normatively evaluating research protocols, among other job areas.

I imagine that you have spent most of your time in the more theoretical arenas of philosophy, such as metaphysics, epistemology, and logic, which, I will admit, are pretty bland and impractical in many ways. But philosophy as a whole is one of the most necessary disciplines in academia because of the fundamental tools of reasoning that it develops and its broad realm of application in virtually every other discipline.

P.S. - Saltlover, I didn't know that you had a philosophy background. What areas did you particularly study?

Ya I'm still in the infant stages of Philosophy (i.e. epistemology, logic etc.) but I just can't understand how philosophy makes you think more practically. I'm with eja117. Philosophy seems like one of those degrees where you have to follow it up with something more technical to do anything useful with it.

A class that attempts to teach you how to think by teaching you how other people think in no way helps you think on your own.

(I believe this is a philosophically inductive argument? I have a philosophy midterm on Monday please let me know if this is correct!)

It's not about teaching you how to think. Philosophy develops your reasoning faculties and how to develop logical arguments. That's completely different than how one thinks.

Here's an interesting NYTimes article on the virtues of studying philosophy and how beneficial it can be: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/26/business/philosophers-find-the-degree-pays-off-in-life-and-in-work.html.

Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2016, 06:06:15 PM »

Offline More Banners

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People who are obsessed with employment rates and think everyone else thinks the same way with academics are ridiculous.  American academics are so stupid and a lot of ways and it's because of that kind of thinking.  No focus on the journey and the actual learning

Nevermind they are always basically wrong about it too.  I heard the same thing being an English major, that there are only teachers who have the degree, when English majors end up seriously everywhere.

If you want a finance job, go study that and just leave everyone else alone to study whatever they choose.

I've seen a couple of people say this but in my original post, I explicitly say "Never mind the high unemployment rates of Philosophy majors, or the low initial starting salary of someone starting in that field..."

I don't consider myself an "academic" and I acknowledge terms like "enlightenment" and "consciousness" but I just don't think those things can be taught.
Philosophy of Education hits these questions. What is education, what is learning, " " teaching, what is worth teaching...how to teach, etc.

Is thinking a skill that can be taught?  It would seem so. How is another question altogether.

Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2016, 07:20:38 PM »

Offline bMunch

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when most people think of philosophy they think of metaphysics whether they use that word or not. this is the study of the nature of reality, what it means to be, what actually exists versus what is perception, etc.

but philosophy covers a lot more ground with interrelated disciplines both within itself and with other sociological and scientific fields since, at root, philosophy deals with the nature of things. 

since there's an election coming up, it would be great if more of us had a background in political philosophy (how and why we're governed, the nature of different nation states and organizing principles around them); moral philosophy ranging from basic utilitarianism (e.g., the ends justify the means) to deontological models (e.g., there is a pre-ordained ethical good or moral code we're required to follow); theories of justice (e.g., the basic socio-economic floor we establish, or don't, in society). the field goes on.

from a more economic, what job will this get me, perspective, i know a lot of people in technology with philosophy backgrounds. for example, some programmers who say logic courses helped them at least as much as anything they took in computer science. one friend of mine works in artificial intelligence and has got his ph.d focusing on the philosophy of the mind. if bio-technology is your thing, many bio-ethicists have philosophy (ethics) and/or religious training.

i think, as others have mentioned above, philosophy is learning how to think through deep questions. i also think that this learning has deep applications to the world we live in today.

and, as an aside, to whoever said, whoever heard of a CEO or a board saying let's help solve this problem by asking the philosophers, i know google once had that very position: in-house philosopher. their job was to work with engineers to think through the ethical decisions they made when making products. it's a one-off example but i bring it up to suggest that the thought isn't as absurd or abstract as you might think.
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Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2016, 09:54:43 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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So hey I made a thread a few years ago asking if a college degree was really worth obtaining:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77412.msg1859392#msg1859392

So after taking in everyone's advice,I decided to take a year off, and I'm now back in it and I must say Philosophy has to be about the most useless, made-up subject in the school's curriculum. Never mind the high unemployment rates of Philosophy majors, or the low initial starting salary of someone starting in that field, but conceptually I can't believe this is a subject.

No disrespect to any Philosophy majors but I don't understand how this class is basically about raising unanswerable questions and forming arguments that can be refuted by a simple hypothetical anecdote. Doesn't the word mean "Love of Knowledge" or something? A lot of the old 17th-18th century philosophers made assumptions based on ignorance (which I can't blame them for), which science has been able to either confirm or refute, so what is the point of learning it now?

Can anyone rationalize this for me?
First, getting jobs is a narrow and dangerous way to rank majors.

Second, thinking is the basis for every other major in a university and the basis for an enlightened, informed person. Thinking deeply, broadly, and clearly are not easy to do. Virtually no one thinks this way unless trained and disciplined.

Who and what are we without thought, reflection, self-awareness?

Should only narrow questions raised by us? Only those that have answers? That leads to a bleak and boring existence for everyone.

Virtually all your profs and most experts have a ph.d. That is, they are doctors of philosophy. They has both mastered a mountain of knowledge and exhibited that they are experts in thinking about that material, creating new ideas based upon their thoughts, and debating with other highly disciplined thinkers. Thinking is a complex process they are experts in.

Thinking is hard to do well. Just as masters in music, art, engineering and other fields need to train and hone their skills, others who create, plan, and lead need to think carefully. To do this, they need to learn HOW to think carefully and broadly.

Philosophy is not just a field, it is the basis for all advanced discoveries and progress since it is the basis of science, math, liberal arts, and virtually all else. Without philosophy there is no enlightenment period and no modernity as we define it. Is that good or bad? Only a philosopher can tackle that question.  ;D

Your inability to see the role of philosophy demonstrates inexperience in thinking carefully and deeply.

Thinking well takes time to learn I suggest you spent the time on it and practice philosophy.

You and those around you would benefit as human beings by your enhanced ability to think.

Hm...Ya this is one of the reasons why I think Philosophy is a made-up subject. How can you "teach" someone how to think? Isn't that a contradiction in itself?

And the method of learning philosophy leaves much to be desired. How can I learn to think "more advanced", if I'm just being taught how other people used to think centuries ago? It then becomes a task of simply being able to memorize and regurgitate old information that much of the time cannot be proved.
Sorry that i cannot give a full reply but am traveling.

First, what field of knowledge or skill is NOT "made up"? Define this please, as stated it seems a shallow generalization.

Next, thinking is natural, which, you seem to agree with. But did you actually read my post carefully? I mentioned thinking deeply, carefully, fully. Therefore, your point is invalid.

Think this way, lets sit someone with no training in music in front of a piano. Can they pound the keys? Of course. Is it music? Very doubtful. But also, it is well done music that is rich, carefully produced, elegant, and reflects years and years of practice and effort? No, and chances are it is mostly ugly noise until that person has years of practice and develops their musical ability.

Same with thinking as a philosopher. Anyone can pound piano keys and anyone can think. But only those with ability, training, practice, and over time become excellent. Otherwise it is noise.

Thinking is a skill and can be developed and strengthened and enriched with practice and training. I know this from experience.

Thinking is similar to piano playing here, a least a little. You sir, are still an amateur at thinking, and your post stands as testimony to that.  I suggest you develop yourself, your logic, your thinking. You the world will be the better for it.
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Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2016, 10:41:17 PM »

Offline Cman

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Thank goodness for liberal arts degrees. These have gone out of fashion but will be all the rage 10 years from now when computers and AI can do the relatively basic science, engineering, math, CS stuff we've been telling people to major in. Learning *how* to learn is a valuable skill.
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Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2016, 10:55:02 PM »

Offline CelticD

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While I certainly appreciate and enjoy reading all of your intelligent, and informative responses, I'm still not convinced that Philosophy is a major worthy of being in a college curriculum. If I haven't responded to anybody I apologize but I know when to call it quits lol. Maybe I'll think differently in the future (doubt it), but I certainly value the time you've all given to my thread.

Much appreciation!

Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2016, 10:55:57 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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So hey I made a thread a few years ago asking if a college degree was really worth obtaining:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77412.msg1859392#msg1859392

So after taking in everyone's advice,I decided to take a year off, and I'm now back in it and I must say Philosophy has to be about the most useless, made-up subject in the school's curriculum. Never mind the high unemployment rates of Philosophy majors, or the low initial starting salary of someone starting in that field, but conceptually I can't believe this is a subject.

No disrespect to any Philosophy majors but I don't understand how this class is basically about raising unanswerable questions and forming arguments that can be refuted by a simple hypothetical anecdote. Doesn't the word mean "Love of Knowledge" or something? A lot of the old 17th-18th century philosophers made assumptions based on ignorance (which I can't blame them for), which science has been able to either confirm or refute, so what is the point of learning it now?

Can anyone rationalize this for me?
First, getting jobs is a narrow and dangerous way to rank majors.

Second, thinking is the basis for every other major in a university and the basis for an enlightened, informed person. Thinking deeply, broadly, and clearly are not easy to do. Virtually no one thinks this way unless trained and disciplined.

Who and what are we without thought, reflection, self-awareness?

Should only narrow questions raised by us? Only those that have answers? That leads to a bleak and boring existence for everyone.

Virtually all your profs and most experts have a ph.d. That is, they are doctors of philosophy. They has both mastered a mountain of knowledge and exhibited that they are experts in thinking about that material, creating new ideas based upon their thoughts, and debating with other highly disciplined thinkers. Thinking is a complex process they are experts in.

Thinking is hard to do well. Just as masters in music, art, engineering and other fields need to train and hone their skills, others who create, plan, and lead need to think carefully. To do this, they need to learn HOW to think carefully and broadly. Philosophy is a highly developed form of disciplined thinking.

Philosophy is not just a field, it is the basis for all advanced discoveries and progress since it is the basis of science, math, liberal arts, and virtually all else. Without philosophy there is no enlightenment period and no modernity as we define it. Is that good or bad? Only a philosopher can tackle that question.  ;D

Your inability to see the role of philosophy demonstrates inexperience in thinking carefully and deeply.

Thinking well takes time to learn I suggest you spent the time on it and practice philosophy.

You and those around you would benefit as human beings by your enhanced ability to think.

This is why I love CelticsBlog,
Try finding a post this well thought out and  articulated on Facebook.

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Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2016, 11:35:05 PM »

Offline Redz

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I remember getting in an argument with a real jerky snot of a roommate who was fresh off taking a philosophy course.  He told me that "You think you can think, but you can't think."  I argued that me thinking I could think was, in fact thinking."  It devolved steadily from there to a point where he was sitting across the room from me threatening to throw a hammer at me. I told him he wouldn't do it, because if he didn't kill me with it I would kill him.  He told me he didn't need to actually throw the hammer, just have a seed of possibility planted in my head. 

He was a real treat for a roommate.  Needless to say he turned me off from philosophy.

Whoa. That's crazy.

Yeh.  I had a second roommate who I got along with great who moved out because of him (I should have followed). He was a teeny little guy too.  Looked like Woodstock from Peanuts. 
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Re: How in the HECK is Philosophy a Major?!
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2016, 11:41:57 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Worldviews (philosophies) are the foundations of cultures and movements: Do you believe in freedom? How do you define freedom? Do you believe we're cosmic accidents or God's creation? Is there a point to life? Materialism or spiritualism? Etc.

As to whether being a philosophy major is economically worthwhile, practical, etc. ... that's another question. :D
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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