Author Topic: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?  (Read 12622 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2017, 09:24:12 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2243
  • Tommy Points: 185
since Brown got consistent minutes he has been better than KO.

Amir is better than KO and I don't think it is all that close.  KO does only one thing well and that is shoot.  It is great skill to have and guys have had long productive careers for that one skill but it doesn't make you good at basketball, it just makes you a good shootwr.
Olynyk is  better shooter, better ballhandler, better passer/has better court vision, better rebounder on the defensive side, and I think he's just as good of a defender. Olynyk is always in the right spot, plays hard and Amir isn't any more athletic.

We might disagree on the defense, but aside from that, what is it that Amir does better than Olynyk?
Amir is consistent which is apparently an underrated quality, he is a better shot blocker, better at holding his position, better at contesting without fouling. Better at screening, better at finishing around the rim, better at being aggressive.

KO is a good shooter and good passer, he can do more than Amir off the dribble but i think the opportunities coming out of that are limited. He has good positional defense but is often caught out.

Oh and Amir boxes out more often. Amir is definitely more athletic than KO..
The biggest difference is consistency. If KO performed consistently then he'd be Jokic, but he doesn't and that's why he's not as important to this team as Amir

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2017, 09:29:21 AM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3927
  • Tommy Points: 404
Let's revisit it when LA wins 30 games

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #122 on: March 16, 2017, 09:45:14 AM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4644
  • Tommy Points: 445
since Brown got consistent minutes he has been better than KO.

Amir is better than KO and I don't think it is all that close.  KO does only one thing well and that is shoot.  It is great skill to have and guys have had long productive careers for that one skill but it doesn't make you good at basketball, it just makes you a good shootwr.
Olynyk is  better shooter, better ballhandler, better passer/has better court vision, better rebounder on the defensive side, and I think he's just as good of a defender. Olynyk is always in the right spot, plays hard and Amir isn't any more athletic.

We might disagree on the defense, but aside from that, what is it that Amir does better than Olynyk?
Amir is consistent which is apparently an underrated quality, he is a better shot blocker, better at holding his position, better at contesting without fouling. Better at screening, better at finishing around the rim, better at being aggressive.

KO is a good shooter and good passer, he can do more than Amir off the dribble but i think the opportunities coming out of that are limited. He has good positional defense but is often caught out.

Oh and Amir boxes out more often. Amir is definitely more athletic than KO..
The biggest difference is consistency. If KO performed consistently then he'd be Jokic, but he doesn't and that's why he's not as important to this team as Amir
More consistent? Absolutely and you're right that that is important. Has to be taken into account any time and especially when talking about Olynyk who is wildly inconsistent.

And yes, Amir is a better shot blocker. The rest, I'm not sure I agree with. Amir is not more athletic than Olynyk, no way. Contesting without fouling? Their fouling is pretty much identical (Amir averages 0.2 more fouls per 36 min). Holding position? I don't know how you'd measure that but I don't think Amir is any better in this area than Olynyk, either.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008, 2019

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2017, 10:08:38 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19337
  • Tommy Points: 915
since Brown got consistent minutes he has been better than KO.

Amir is better than KO and I don't think it is all that close.  KO does only one thing well and that is shoot.  It is great skill to have and guys have had long productive careers for that one skill but it doesn't make you good at basketball, it just makes you a good shootwr.
Olynyk is  better shooter, better ballhandler, better passer/has better court vision, better rebounder on the defensive side, and I think he's just as good of a defender. Olynyk is always in the right spot, plays hard and Amir isn't any more athletic.

We might disagree on the defense, but aside from that, what is it that Amir does better than Olynyk?
Amir is consistent which is apparently an underrated quality, he is a better shot blocker, better at holding his position, better at contesting without fouling. Better at screening, better at finishing around the rim, better at being aggressive.

KO is a good shooter and good passer, he can do more than Amir off the dribble but i think the opportunities coming out of that are limited. He has good positional defense but is often caught out.

Oh and Amir boxes out more often. Amir is definitely more athletic than KO..
The biggest difference is consistency. If KO performed consistently then he'd be Jokic, but he doesn't and that's why he's not as important to this team as Amir
More consistent? Absolutely and you're right that that is important. Has to be taken into account any time and especially when talking about Olynyk who is wildly inconsistent.

And yes, Amir is a better shot blocker. The rest, I'm not sure I agree with. Amir is not more athletic than Olynyk, no way. Contesting without fouling? Their fouling is pretty much identical (Amir averages 0.2 more fouls per 36 min). Holding position? I don't know how you'd measure that but I don't think Amir is any better in this area than Olynyk, either.
Pretty much every single advanced metric says Johnson is better than Olynyk.  He has a higher PER, higher VORP, higher BPM, higher win shares (both offensively and defensively and they've played nearly identical minutes on the same team, so you can actually use WS in that situation), etc.  Amir is a better rebounder, he is a significantly better shot blocker, he turns the ball over less, he has a higher TS%, etc.  Olynyk is a much better 3 point shooter (though Johnson is actually shooting 40% this year which is better than Olynyk) and is the better passer, but that is about it.  Johnson is the better all around player and it isn't all that close.

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2017, 10:50:33 AM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4644
  • Tommy Points: 445
Pretty much every single advanced metric says Johnson is better than Olynyk.  He has a higher PER, higher VORP, higher BPM, higher win shares (both offensively and defensively and they've played nearly identical minutes on the same team, so you can actually use WS in that situation), etc.  Amir is a better rebounder, he is a significantly better shot blocker, he turns the ball over less, he has a higher TS%, etc.  Olynyk is a much better 3 point shooter (though Johnson is actually shooting 40% this year which is better than Olynyk) and is the better passer, but that is about it.  Johnson is the better all around player and it isn't all that close.
Amir plays with the starters, AKA the team's best players. So all of the advanced metrics that are derived from lineups (like Win Shares) are going to be skewed. If you switch their place in the rotation, Olynyk would be the one with higher numbers in those areas.

PER? Johnson's PER is 0.3 points higher. Mostly because he's more efficient. Higher FG%, lower TO's. But the reason for this is because he can't be trusted to handle the ball. Amir gets his points almost exclusively on put-backs, dump-offs, and wide open 3's. Olynyk is a far superior offensive player both as scorer and passer. If there is an area in which they are not close, it is on offense where Olynyk is miles ahead of Amir.

Defensively, as I said, we can disagree but aside from being a better shot blocker I just don't see Amir as being better than Olynyk.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008, 2019

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2017, 11:01:18 AM »

Offline JBcat

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2737
  • Tommy Points: 457
Let's revisit it when LA wins 30 games

I would take Smart over Randle but take away the likes of Thomas, Horford, maybe Bradley and essentially you get what Randle is dealing with on the Lakers.

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #126 on: March 16, 2017, 11:34:09 AM »

Offline BitterJim

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5455
  • Tommy Points: 732
since Brown got consistent minutes he has been better than KO.

Amir is better than KO and I don't think it is all that close.  KO does only one thing well and that is shoot.  It is great skill to have and guys have had long productive careers for that one skill but it doesn't make you good at basketball, it just makes you a good shootwr.
Olynyk is  better shooter, better ballhandler, better passer/has better court vision, better rebounder on the defensive side, and I think he's just as good of a defender. Olynyk is always in the right spot, plays hard and Amir isn't any more athletic.

We might disagree on the defense, but aside from that, what is it that Amir does better than Olynyk?
Amir is consistent which is apparently an underrated quality, he is a better shot blocker, better at holding his position, better at contesting without fouling. Better at screening, better at finishing around the rim, better at being aggressive.

KO is a good shooter and good passer, he can do more than Amir off the dribble but i think the opportunities coming out of that are limited. He has good positional defense but is often caught out.

Oh and Amir boxes out more often. Amir is definitely more athletic than KO..
The biggest difference is consistency. If KO performed consistently then he'd be Jokic, but he doesn't and that's why he's not as important to this team as Amir
More consistent? Absolutely and you're right that that is important. Has to be taken into account any time and especially when talking about Olynyk who is wildly inconsistent.

And yes, Amir is a better shot blocker. The rest, I'm not sure I agree with. Amir is not more athletic than Olynyk, no way. Contesting without fouling? Their fouling is pretty much identical (Amir averages 0.2 more fouls per 36 min). Holding position? I don't know how you'd measure that but I don't think Amir is any better in this area than Olynyk, either.
Pretty much every single advanced metric says Johnson is better than Olynyk.  He has a higher PER, higher VORP, higher BPM, higher win shares (both offensively and defensively and they've played nearly identical minutes on the same team, so you can actually use WS in that situation), etc.  Amir is a better rebounder, he is a significantly better shot blocker, he turns the ball over less, he has a higher TS%, etc.  Olynyk is a much better 3 point shooter (though Johnson is actually shooting 40% this year which is better than Olynyk) and is the better passer, but that is about it.  Johnson is the better all around player and it isn't all that close.

Is he, though? He gets more offensive rebounds, but that's hardly a surprise given the role that Kelly plays on offense (ie sitting on the perimeter). But on the defensive side, Kelly is the better rebounder (and it's not particularly close). Kelly grabs 19.9% of defensive rebounds (top on the team) while Amir picks up only 17.7% (5th on the team behind Kelly, Al, Jerebko, and Zeller). Amir leads for TRB%,  but that lead is just from his higher offensive rebound rate (which is easily explained by his role on offense that often puts him closer to the basket).

Amir is definitely better than Kelly at some things (like interior defense), but rebounding is not one of them. I'm getting tired of seeing things like "Kelly is a bad rebounder" passed off as an undeniable fact that needs no supporting evidence when, actually, he's one of the best rebounders on our team. Is he elite? No. But he's above average, which is great for a guy that stretches the floor
I'm bitter.

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2017, 11:49:46 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2243
  • Tommy Points: 185
since Brown got consistent minutes he has been better than KO.

Amir is better than KO and I don't think it is all that close.  KO does only one thing well and that is shoot.  It is great skill to have and guys have had long productive careers for that one skill but it doesn't make you good at basketball, it just makes you a good shootwr.
Olynyk is  better shooter, better ballhandler, better passer/has better court vision, better rebounder on the defensive side, and I think he's just as good of a defender. Olynyk is always in the right spot, plays hard and Amir isn't any more athletic.

We might disagree on the defense, but aside from that, what is it that Amir does better than Olynyk?
Amir is consistent which is apparently an underrated quality, he is a better shot blocker, better at holding his position, better at contesting without fouling. Better at screening, better at finishing around the rim, better at being aggressive.

KO is a good shooter and good passer, he can do more than Amir off the dribble but i think the opportunities coming out of that are limited. He has good positional defense but is often caught out.

Oh and Amir boxes out more often. Amir is definitely more athletic than KO..
The biggest difference is consistency. If KO performed consistently then he'd be Jokic, but he doesn't and that's why he's not as important to this team as Amir
More consistent? Absolutely and you're right that that is important. Has to be taken into account any time and especially when talking about Olynyk who is wildly inconsistent.

And yes, Amir is a better shot blocker. The rest, I'm not sure I agree with. Amir is not more athletic than Olynyk, no way. Contesting without fouling? Their fouling is pretty much identical (Amir averages 0.2 more fouls per 36 min). Holding position? I don't know how you'd measure that but I don't think Amir is any better in this area than Olynyk, either.
Pretty much every single advanced metric says Johnson is better than Olynyk.  He has a higher PER, higher VORP, higher BPM, higher win shares (both offensively and defensively and they've played nearly identical minutes on the same team, so you can actually use WS in that situation), etc.  Amir is a better rebounder, he is a significantly better shot blocker, he turns the ball over less, he has a higher TS%, etc.  Olynyk is a much better 3 point shooter (though Johnson is actually shooting 40% this year which is better than Olynyk) and is the better passer, but that is about it.  Johnson is the better all around player and it isn't all that close.

Is he, though? He gets more offensive rebounds, but that's hardly a surprise given the role that Kelly plays on offense (ie sitting on the perimeter). But on the defensive side, Kelly is the better rebounder (and it's not particularly close). Kelly grabs 19.9% of defensive rebounds (top on the team) while Amir picks up only 17.7% (5th on the team behind Kelly, Al, Jerebko, and Zeller). Amir leads for TRB%,  but that lead is just from his higher offensive rebound rate (which is easily explained by his role on offense that often puts him closer to the basket).

Amir is definitely better than Kelly at some things (like interior defense), but rebounding is not one of them. I'm getting tired of seeing things like "Kelly is a bad rebounder" passed off as an undeniable fact that needs no supporting evidence when, actually, he's one of the best rebounders on our team. Is he elite? No. But he's above average, which is great for a guy that stretches the floor
Interesting that you complain about people diminishing KOs rebounding ability yet do exactly the same to Amir. I would not say he is down low more often than KO, our system takes the bigs out to the perimeter often for dribble handoffs, which Amir does a lot of. Brad has also been getting KO more opportunities in the post recently as that is an area he has improved in. I would more likely attribute Amir's superior offensive rebounding to his ability to fight for said rebounds.

Equally I could suggest that Amir, who is always guarding the Center of the opposing team, spends more time boxing his opponent out than jumping for the rebound, a product of our system. He also tends to play against the starting big man whereas KO is up against the bench.

KO is a good rebounder, and improving, but Amir is the better. You can't just dismiss offensive rebounds

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2017, 12:13:18 PM »

Offline kraidstar

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2181
  • Tommy Points: 533
Can we keep the conversation on topic here?

This is a thread about Randle and Smart

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2017, 12:18:26 PM »

Offline BitterJim

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5455
  • Tommy Points: 732
since Brown got consistent minutes he has been better than KO.

Amir is better than KO and I don't think it is all that close.  KO does only one thing well and that is shoot.  It is great skill to have and guys have had long productive careers for that one skill but it doesn't make you good at basketball, it just makes you a good shootwr.
Olynyk is  better shooter, better ballhandler, better passer/has better court vision, better rebounder on the defensive side, and I think he's just as good of a defender. Olynyk is always in the right spot, plays hard and Amir isn't any more athletic.

We might disagree on the defense, but aside from that, what is it that Amir does better than Olynyk?
Amir is consistent which is apparently an underrated quality, he is a better shot blocker, better at holding his position, better at contesting without fouling. Better at screening, better at finishing around the rim, better at being aggressive.

KO is a good shooter and good passer, he can do more than Amir off the dribble but i think the opportunities coming out of that are limited. He has good positional defense but is often caught out.

Oh and Amir boxes out more often. Amir is definitely more athletic than KO..
The biggest difference is consistency. If KO performed consistently then he'd be Jokic, but he doesn't and that's why he's not as important to this team as Amir
More consistent? Absolutely and you're right that that is important. Has to be taken into account any time and especially when talking about Olynyk who is wildly inconsistent.

And yes, Amir is a better shot blocker. The rest, I'm not sure I agree with. Amir is not more athletic than Olynyk, no way. Contesting without fouling? Their fouling is pretty much identical (Amir averages 0.2 more fouls per 36 min). Holding position? I don't know how you'd measure that but I don't think Amir is any better in this area than Olynyk, either.
Pretty much every single advanced metric says Johnson is better than Olynyk.  He has a higher PER, higher VORP, higher BPM, higher win shares (both offensively and defensively and they've played nearly identical minutes on the same team, so you can actually use WS in that situation), etc.  Amir is a better rebounder, he is a significantly better shot blocker, he turns the ball over less, he has a higher TS%, etc.  Olynyk is a much better 3 point shooter (though Johnson is actually shooting 40% this year which is better than Olynyk) and is the better passer, but that is about it.  Johnson is the better all around player and it isn't all that close.

Is he, though? He gets more offensive rebounds, but that's hardly a surprise given the role that Kelly plays on offense (ie sitting on the perimeter). But on the defensive side, Kelly is the better rebounder (and it's not particularly close). Kelly grabs 19.9% of defensive rebounds (top on the team) while Amir picks up only 17.7% (5th on the team behind Kelly, Al, Jerebko, and Zeller). Amir leads for TRB%,  but that lead is just from his higher offensive rebound rate (which is easily explained by his role on offense that often puts him closer to the basket).

Amir is definitely better than Kelly at some things (like interior defense), but rebounding is not one of them. I'm getting tired of seeing things like "Kelly is a bad rebounder" passed off as an undeniable fact that needs no supporting evidence when, actually, he's one of the best rebounders on our team. Is he elite? No. But he's above average, which is great for a guy that stretches the floor
Interesting that you complain about people diminishing KOs rebounding ability yet do exactly the same to Amir. I would not say he is down low more often than KO, our system takes the bigs out to the perimeter often for dribble handoffs, which Amir does a lot of. Brad has also been getting KO more opportunities in the post recently as that is an area he has improved in. I would more likely attribute Amir's superior offensive rebounding to his ability to fight for said rebounds.

Equally I could suggest that Amir, who is always guarding the Center of the opposing team, spends more time boxing his opponent out than jumping for the rebound, a product of our system. He also tends to play against the starting big man whereas KO is up against the bench.

KO is a good rebounder, and improving, but Amir is the better. You can't just dismiss offensive rebounds

I'm not entirely disregarding Amir's rebounding, but comparing offensive rebounding ability of two players with vastly different roles is at best difficult (and at worst grossly misleading), so I generally use defensive rebounding to compare their actual rebounding ability.  Even with Amir's dribble handoffs and occasional standing out on the perimeter, he spends more time inside than Olynyk does.  This leads to more offensive rebounds. I'm not saying that he spends all his time inside, or that there's no way he's a better offensive rebounder, but comparing their ORB% doesn't help in that regard because of their different roles (contested ORB% would help, if anyone knows where to find that).  Bench vs. starters could certainly play a role, but it's not gonna be the difference between 20% and 17.1%.  That's a 14.5% difference.

And again, "Amir is the better [rebounder]" with no actual hard evidence to support it.  I would 100% agree that Amir was better than Kelly last year, but Kelly's improvement combined with a bit of a dropoff from Amir put Kelly ahead of him at this point
I'm bitter.

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #130 on: March 16, 2017, 01:05:41 PM »

Offline smokeablount

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1681
  • Tommy Points: 107
  • When my account was born, Mark Blount was our C :(
I would say it doesn't make a ton of sense to start until the end of the season after next, at the end of Smart's first year on his second contract.  He and Randle are still so young, and I know his percentages aren't great still, but having attended most Celtics home games this year I believe his shot is getting better and can keep improving until it's respectable.  As many have pointed out, if he shot like two 3's a game instead of his routine 4-6 it would be helpful, and that's doable.  And as one poster said, he's actually shooting great on corner 3's now, which is a good sign.

I suggest that time because I want to see how much they each cost in the open market, and then to take a year to evaluate whether they are living up to that billing.  As they're both 21-23 years old and on cost controlled rookie contracts, I feel there are still too many things in limbo with them.  We all know about his intangibles.

I'm honestly more interested in Yab vs Skal, and Jaylen vs Ingram even though we weren't getting Ingram.  And depending on who we draft (and I'm assuming here), Fultz vs Ball or Josh Jackson vs Tatum, as those are the 4 guys I've seen and liked (nothing new to pick those guys).
Give us this pick, Almighty Red
And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

-Sexyscottish

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2018, 11:02:23 AM »

Offline apc

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2722
  • Tommy Points: 276
It is settled , Smart is better  ;)

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #132 on: July 19, 2018, 11:20:38 AM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4644
  • Tommy Points: 445
It is settled , Smart is better  ;)

I think they're both set up for interesting years. Randle will be on a new team and the presumptive starter next to Anthony Davis. I think Smart, feeling a bit of security for maybe the first time in his life, could have his best year this year.

Personally, I'm glad we have Smart.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008, 2019

Re: So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?
« Reply #133 on: July 19, 2018, 12:04:38 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

  • Marcus Morris
  • Posts: 78
  • Tommy Points: 17
I think that they're both flawed players who need to be a good fit for whatever team they're on.

New Orleans is a great fit for Randle. Davis' gravity and outside shooting will magnify Randle's exceptional skill at finishing and getting to the line - the paint will be more open than he's used to. Since his shooting drops off dramatically away from the rim, he badly needs some room to operate.

Smart and Randle have both been turnover-prone. Like, horribly. Marcus' uptick in that area last season was more alarming than his self-inflicted injury. Smart's big issue is bad passes, Randle's is offensive fouls. The offensive fouls raise the question of how good his feel for the game is.

Boston would have been a very different team the last few years if they'd taken Randle instead of brother Marcus; I believe the Boston brass considered it.

Who's better? I don't know for sure, hard to say. I guess I prefer Smart - he lets you play a more open game, more motion. And he "does hard things", in the words of Brad Stevens. Gets 50/50 balls, saves possessions.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 12:40:41 PM by Hoopvortex »