So When Is It Time to Revisit the Smart / Randle Thing?

[LarBrd33]

Anyone else think that Randle has alot of Jeff Green in him? As in...very very inconsistent....

Smart has the clutch factor. Only thing holding Smart back is his injury issues, otherwise he's going to be a stud.

Inconsistency happens for 21 year old kids with 1 season of basketball on their belt.

He's actually been pretty consistent, though.   Fairly efficient in every game.  His shot attempts have fluctuated.  That might be more a sign of the young Lakers trying to figure out what works for them.

[alldaboston]

Still a chance randle ends up the next Zach Randolph while smart ends up the next Tony Allen.  I still have smart a hair ahead of him, but that's me being a homer.

I'd be surprised at either being as good as the established players, but Smart would seem a better bet. As far as raw talent though, Tony was a freak until the injuries. Who knows how good he could have been. Not a fan of Randle's game so far. Pretty much the same flaws he came into the NBA with.

Actually, I still think Randle is very much on pace to be a 20/10 Randolph type.  Remember that this is only his second season and last year he was coming off an injury.   

So I'd say the time to revisit it would actually be at the end of this season.   Smart might make a leap this year.  If he doesn't, I think the idea that Smart has star potential all but vanishes.  He regressed from season 1 to 2.  If he doesn't make major improvements in year 3, he'll be seen as a long-term bench role player.  Also, once we get a look at how Randle progresses in his second season, we'll have an idea of what he'll turn into.

Should be noted that both players look pretty good so far this season. 

Randle's per-36:  17.9 points, 10.8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.1 blocks with 59% shooting, 16% from three and 64% fromt he line.

Smart's per-36:  12.2 points, 4.1 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 0.6 steals, 1.2 blocks, 41% shooting, 33% from three, 60% from the line.

It's only been two games for Smart, though.  Let's see if he goes back to his historically bad shooting or is actually able to shoot over 40% this year.

Let's be honest here... if you ask an unbias basketball fan, Randle has already leapfrogged Smart.

That's only if you ask an unbiased basketball fan who solely looks at stats. I've said it before Lar, you're largely a numbers guy. You love per 36 stats, you love Tiers, you love rankings. Which is fine. Numbers are certainly important. But impact on the game is also important.

[Celtics18]

Haha.  Love the line "historically bad shooting" LarBrd.  Good to see you are at your best.

[MJohnnyboy]

I think this is the finally season where we start to see what Smart and Randle are truly made of.

I'm optimistic about Smart and I think he could be a special player, but I do acknowledge his shooting woes last season. They were awful, but what stops me giving from giving up on him is his rookie season averages aren't nearly as bad, and there were a few times last season where Smart single-handedly almost led Celtics comebacks against the Magic and the Mavericks. Those performances are what get me to see his potential. Not to mention Smart actually placed decently well in the playoffs. You know, when it really counted. I think what's held back Smart is not being the primary ball handler on the floor. I think Smart has shown he can run an offense as long as he has the ball in his hands. The issue is he played with Evan Turner who also needed the ball in his hands and Smart played off the ball, which I don't think suits him. Now Turner's gone, so I think we're finally going to see what Smart can do now that he's a focal point. Defensively, you already know what he's capable of. Now it's time to see if he can produce consistently on both sides of the ball. So far, he hasn't looked too bad (for him) but it's only been two games.

I've criticized Randle earlier this season, thinking he could be a Carlos Boozer/David Lee type i.e. he can put up stats but not really help his team win. This season Randle is in a different situation than he was last season. Kobe and Byron Scott are both gone, which means the handcuffs are off for not just him but the rest of the Lakers too. They can start caring about winning again! They also have added a good coach and some actual NBA-caliber players so they are starting to show signs of life. I've watched some videos that detail just how well the Lakers are starting to utilize Randle as a player compared to last season. He and Russell have good chemistry together, and Randle plays within himself a little more than he did last year. His defense still leaves a lot to be desired, but again, like with Smart's offense, you just gotta give it time.

I think both of these guys have potential to be vital contributors for good teams but in their own ways. This will probably be revisited again and again throughout their whole careers. All in all, I'm happy we have Smart.

[tazzmaniac]

Anyone else think that Randle has alot of Jeff Green in him? As in...very very inconsistent....

Smart has the clutch factor. Only thing holding Smart back is his injury issues, otherwise he's going to be a stud.

I think there is a little talent called shooting that is holding Smart back.  With his style of play, I'm also concerned that his injuries are going to be his norm.  Missing 15-20 games each season would be a significant negative.  Randle missed his 1st season with a major injury but last season he played 81 games. 

[LarBrd33]

Still a chance randle ends up the next Zach Randolph while smart ends up the next Tony Allen.  I still have smart a hair ahead of him, but that's me being a homer.

I'd be surprised at either being as good as the established players, but Smart would seem a better bet. As far as raw talent though, Tony was a freak until the injuries. Who knows how good he could have been. Not a fan of Randle's game so far. Pretty much the same flaws he came into the NBA with.

Actually, I still think Randle is very much on pace to be a 20/10 Randolph type.  Remember that this is only his second season and last year he was coming off an injury.   

So I'd say the time to revisit it would actually be at the end of this season.   Smart might make a leap this year.  If he doesn't, I think the idea that Smart has star potential all but vanishes.  He regressed from season 1 to 2.  If he doesn't make major improvements in year 3, he'll be seen as a long-term bench role player.  Also, once we get a look at how Randle progresses in his second season, we'll have an idea of what he'll turn into.

Should be noted that both players look pretty good so far this season. 

Randle's per-36:  17.9 points, 10.8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.1 blocks with 59% shooting, 16% from three and 64% fromt he line.

Smart's per-36:  12.2 points, 4.1 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 0.6 steals, 1.2 blocks, 41% shooting, 33% from three, 60% from the line.

It's only been two games for Smart, though.  Let's see if he goes back to his historically bad shooting or is actually able to shoot over 40% this year.

Let's be honest here... if you ask an unbias basketball fan, Randle has already leapfrogged Smart.

That's only if you ask an unbiased basketball fan who solely looks at stats. I've said it before Lar, you're largely a numbers guy. You love per 36 stats, you love Tiers, you love rankings. Which is fine. Numbers are certainly important. But impact on the game is also important.

How do you determine the impact on the game?  That's arbitrary.  Randle's "impact on the game" is pretty clear as well.  He's helped lead his team to a 3-3 record and just knocked off the Golden State Warriors by dropping 20 points and 14 rebounds.  That's clearly an "impact on the game".   That passes the "eye test". 

What's your rebuttal?  Advanced stats show Smart makes a great impact?  Advanced stats are still stats.   Don't criticize me for being a "numbers guy" and then quote some numbers.

Bottom line, we are probably in agreement that if you ask some people outside of Laker/Celtic fandom, Randle is probably seen as the superior prospect at this point.

Maybe not though.  Personally, I still have Smart a hair above Randle... this despite being a "numbers guy", I guess.   And I think some analysts still give Smart a lot of credit.  Perhaps more than he deserves.  In fact, I think I read something on ESPN this Summer that pegged Smart as a player likely to  make a leap... they came up with that using.... numbers.   

Smart still might make a big leap this Summer.  I'm hoping it happens.

[LarBrd33]

Haha.  Love the line "historically bad shooting" LarBrd.  Good to see you are at your best.

I didn't come up with that, Celtics18.   Google "Marcus Smart historically bad" and you'll find several articles about how Marcus Smart is coming off the worst shooting season in NBA history.  Note:  It's in reference to his shot attempts from 3.  He's the worst in NBA history out of any player who consistently took 3 point shots.  His shooting last season was historically bad.

[alldaboston]

Still a chance randle ends up the next Zach Randolph while smart ends up the next Tony Allen.  I still have smart a hair ahead of him, but that's me being a homer.

I'd be surprised at either being as good as the established players, but Smart would seem a better bet. As far as raw talent though, Tony was a freak until the injuries. Who knows how good he could have been. Not a fan of Randle's game so far. Pretty much the same flaws he came into the NBA with.

Actually, I still think Randle is very much on pace to be a 20/10 Randolph type.  Remember that this is only his second season and last year he was coming off an injury.   

So I'd say the time to revisit it would actually be at the end of this season.   Smart might make a leap this year.  If he doesn't, I think the idea that Smart has star potential all but vanishes.  He regressed from season 1 to 2.  If he doesn't make major improvements in year 3, he'll be seen as a long-term bench role player.  Also, once we get a look at how Randle progresses in his second season, we'll have an idea of what he'll turn into.

Should be noted that both players look pretty good so far this season. 

Randle's per-36:  17.9 points, 10.8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.1 blocks with 59% shooting, 16% from three and 64% fromt he line.

Smart's per-36:  12.2 points, 4.1 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 0.6 steals, 1.2 blocks, 41% shooting, 33% from three, 60% from the line.

It's only been two games for Smart, though.  Let's see if he goes back to his historically bad shooting or is actually able to shoot over 40% this year.

Let's be honest here... if you ask an unbias basketball fan, Randle has already leapfrogged Smart.

That's only if you ask an unbiased basketball fan who solely looks at stats. I've said it before Lar, you're largely a numbers guy. You love per 36 stats, you love Tiers, you love rankings. Which is fine. Numbers are certainly important. But impact on the game is also important.

How do you determine the impact on the game?  That's arbitrary.  Randle's "impact on the game" is pretty clear as well.  He's helped lead his team to a 3-3 record and just knocked off the Golden State Warriors by dropping 20 points and 14 rebounds.  That's clearly an "impact on the game".   That passes the "eye test". 

What's your rebuttal?  Advanced stats show Smart makes a great impact?  Advanced stats are still stats.   Don't criticize me for being a "numbers guy" and then quote some numbers.

Bottom line, we are probably in agreement that if you ask some people outside of Laker/Celtic fandom, Randle is probably seen as the superior prospect at this point.

Maybe not though.  Personally, I still have Smart a hair above Randle... this despite being a "numbers guy", I guess.   And I think some analysts still give Smart a lot of credit.  Perhaps more than he deserves.  In fact, I think I read something on ESPN this Summer that pegged Smart as a player likely to  make a leap... they came up with that using.... numbers.   

Smart still might make a big leap this Summer.  I'm hoping it happens.

What i mean, is looking at skill set and how that player uses his skill set to lead his team to wins.

Randle: has no right hand. good rebounder. has tunnel vision sometimes, but also has shown good passing skills under Walton, has no jump shot. isnt a great defender. for all intents and purposes, he's an energy rebounder who can sometimes get a bucket in the post.

Smart: streaky shooter. underrated PnR ball handler. elite defense. knows when to pass vs not pass. cant always get to the rim easily. solid rebounder for a guard. He's an energy defender who can sometimes bring his team some offense.

I'm not saying to use advanced stats (although I suspect that those also favor Smart). If you ask some unbiased fans, theyll say Randle. If you ask other unbiased fans, theyll say Smart. If you ask me, the only reason this debate even exists is because of the Lakers vs Celtics rivalry. Not even the fact they were picked back to back. You don't see anyone arguing Exum vs Gordon do you? Or LaVine vs. Warren.

They're completely different players with completely different skill sets, and each team who prefers one or the other does so for their own reasons.

[celticsclay]

Randle is the kind of player that people that play fantasy basketball think  is a lot better than he actually is (much like Okafor)

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Still a chance randle ends up the next Zach Randolph while smart ends up the next Tony Allen.  I still have smart a hair ahead of him, but that's me being a homer.

I'd be surprised at either being as good as the established players, but Smart would seem a better bet. As far as raw talent though, Tony was a freak until the injuries. Who knows how good he could have been. Not a fan of Randle's game so far. Pretty much the same flaws he came into the NBA with.

Actually, I still think Randle is very much on pace to be a 20/10 Randolph type.  Remember that this is only his second season and last year he was coming off an injury.   

So I'd say the time to revisit it would actually be at the end of this season.   Smart might make a leap this year.  If he doesn't, I think the idea that Smart has star potential all but vanishes.  He regressed from season 1 to 2.  If he doesn't make major improvements in year 3, he'll be seen as a long-term bench role player.  Also, once we get a look at how Randle progresses in his second season, we'll have an idea of what he'll turn into.

Should be noted that both players look pretty good so far this season. 

Randle's per-36:  17.9 points, 10.8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.1 blocks with 59% shooting, 16% from three and 64% fromt he line.

Smart's per-36:  12.2 points, 4.1 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 0.6 steals, 1.2 blocks, 41% shooting, 33% from three, 60% from the line.

It's only been two games for Smart, though.  Let's see if he goes back to his historically bad shooting or is actually able to shoot over 40% this year.

Let's be honest here... if you ask an unbias basketball fan, Randle has already leapfrogged Smart.

That's only if you ask an unbiased basketball fan who solely looks at stats. I've said it before Lar, you're largely a numbers guy. You love per 36 stats, you love Tiers, you love rankings. Which is fine. Numbers are certainly important. But impact on the game is also important.

How do you determine the impact on the game?  That's arbitrary.  Randle's "impact on the game" is pretty clear as well.  He's helped lead his team to a 3-3 record and just knocked off the Golden State Warriors by dropping 20 points and 14 rebounds.  That's clearly an "impact on the game".   That passes the "eye test". 

What's your rebuttal?  Advanced stats show Smart makes a great impact?  Advanced stats are still stats.   Don't criticize me for being a "numbers guy" and then quote some numbers.

Bottom line, we are probably in agreement that if you ask some people outside of Laker/Celtic fandom, Randle is probably seen as the superior prospect at this point.

Maybe not though.  Personally, I still have Smart a hair above Randle... this despite being a "numbers guy", I guess.   And I think some analysts still give Smart a lot of credit.  Perhaps more than he deserves.  In fact, I think I read something on ESPN this Summer that pegged Smart as a player likely to  make a leap... they came up with that using.... numbers.   

Smart still might make a big leap this Summer.  I'm hoping it happens.

I respect your opinion, Lar, but disagree.

We will need a full year to determine this, but I suspect that the numbers Randle puts up this year will be on a sub-500 team. Whereas the numbers Smart puts up will be on a top 5 team in the NBA. Both will get similar playing time and usage (Randle had 20% last year to Smart's 17%), but given that, I think Smart's is more impressive.

Because there are no controls (like playing time, wins, or even competition), its really difficult to straight compare per 36 minute stats. Looking at those numbers are not useless, but they are incomplete. That's why usage rate, competition, wins, and defensive impact (which is very difficult to quantify) all have to be looked at when comparing players.

[LarBrd33]

Still a chance randle ends up the next Zach Randolph while smart ends up the next Tony Allen.  I still have smart a hair ahead of him, but that's me being a homer.

I'd be surprised at either being as good as the established players, but Smart would seem a better bet. As far as raw talent though, Tony was a freak until the injuries. Who knows how good he could have been. Not a fan of Randle's game so far. Pretty much the same flaws he came into the NBA with.

Actually, I still think Randle is very much on pace to be a 20/10 Randolph type.  Remember that this is only his second season and last year he was coming off an injury.   

So I'd say the time to revisit it would actually be at the end of this season.   Smart might make a leap this year.  If he doesn't, I think the idea that Smart has star potential all but vanishes.  He regressed from season 1 to 2.  If he doesn't make major improvements in year 3, he'll be seen as a long-term bench role player.  Also, once we get a look at how Randle progresses in his second season, we'll have an idea of what he'll turn into.

Should be noted that both players look pretty good so far this season. 

Randle's per-36:  17.9 points, 10.8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.3 steals, 1.1 blocks with 59% shooting, 16% from three and 64% fromt he line.

Smart's per-36:  12.2 points, 4.1 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 0.6 steals, 1.2 blocks, 41% shooting, 33% from three, 60% from the line.

It's only been two games for Smart, though.  Let's see if he goes back to his historically bad shooting or is actually able to shoot over 40% this year.

Let's be honest here... if you ask an unbias basketball fan, Randle has already leapfrogged Smart.

That's only if you ask an unbiased basketball fan who solely looks at stats. I've said it before Lar, you're largely a numbers guy. You love per 36 stats, you love Tiers, you love rankings. Which is fine. Numbers are certainly important. But impact on the game is also important.

How do you determine the impact on the game?  That's arbitrary.  Randle's "impact on the game" is pretty clear as well.  He's helped lead his team to a 3-3 record and just knocked off the Golden State Warriors by dropping 20 points and 14 rebounds.  That's clearly an "impact on the game".   That passes the "eye test". 

What's your rebuttal?  Advanced stats show Smart makes a great impact?  Advanced stats are still stats.   Don't criticize me for being a "numbers guy" and then quote some numbers.

Bottom line, we are probably in agreement that if you ask some people outside of Laker/Celtic fandom, Randle is probably seen as the superior prospect at this point.

Maybe not though.  Personally, I still have Smart a hair above Randle... this despite being a "numbers guy", I guess.   And I think some analysts still give Smart a lot of credit.  Perhaps more than he deserves.  In fact, I think I read something on ESPN this Summer that pegged Smart as a player likely to  make a leap... they came up with that using.... numbers.   

Smart still might make a big leap this Summer.  I'm hoping it happens.

I respect your opinion, Lar, but disagree.

We will need a full year to determine this, but I suspect that the numbers Randle puts up this year will be on a sub-500 team. Whereas the numbers Smart puts up will be on a top 5 team in the NBA. Both will get similar playing time and usage (Randle had 20% last year to Smart's 17%), but given that, I think Smart's is more impressive.

Because there are no controls (like playing time, wins, or even competition), its really difficult to straight compare per 36 minute stats. Looking at those numbers are not useless, but they are incomplete. That's why usage rate, competition, wins, and defensive impact (which is very difficult to quantify) all have to be looked at when comparing players.

We aren't disagreeing.  I said I personally still have Smart a hair above Randle. 

[Smartacus]

Randle's a special player, he was a monster in college and seems to be finding his own in the NBA. Creative passer, a rare touch when finishing at the rim, a nastiness that allows him to perform late in games.

I heard some talk this last summer that Ben Simmons was slated to be the next Blake Griffin, but from my perspective Randle has the inside track.

Big fan of Marcus Smart, happy he's here and hope he retires a Celtic legend, but I'd be lying if I said wouldn't rather be watching a Julius Randle/Al Horford frontcourt. Thing that stings the most is that it was probably the presence of Sullinger that kept us from drafting Randle.

It will be very interesting to see what we can do with the 2017 draft. Should be some strong frontcourt talent but not sure we're going to find someone as impactful as Randle would have been for us. Until then I'm content enjoying the rare defensive play of Marcus Smart.

randle is the next Blake griffin? I'm
Pretty sure Blake griffin was an all star his rookie year and averaged like 22 and 11. That's a little ridiculous praise for randle

Sorry your right this was definitely a hyperbolic statement, if I could shamelessly backtrack off my original point, I meant more the type of play than the production of Blake Griffin. BG was a consensus number 1 pick and a 1%er of an athlete. In no way did I mean to infer that Randle is going to average anywhere close to 22 and 11 at this or eve any other point in his career.

What I meant more is that he has the opportunity to be the next physically big, strong PF that also has enough passing skills to run a section of your offense through him in the mid post. He's not going to dunk all over people at the rim, but he can achieve a similar result by using that touch to finish through contact around the basket.

As for the folks saying that this is a knee jerk to the Lakers beating the Warriors, hard to argue giving the timing of this thread but I will say that I've always been high on Randle and the guy we're seeing in a limited sample size this year is much closer to the who I thought he would be as an NBA player to the borderline malcontent we saw last year.

I cut Randle an obscene amount of slack for events that transpired last year. Kobe's final year... under Byron Scott... for a team that was still incentivized to not only tank, but tank for a top 3 pick since they would have lost it to the 6'ers if it fell out of the top 3. This year's team under Luke Walton looks like an entirely different monster and Randle has been one of the key contributors.

[Celtics18]

Haha.  Love the line "historically bad shooting" LarBrd.  Good to see you are at your best.

I didn't come up with that, Celtics18.   Google "Marcus Smart historically bad" and you'll find several articles about how Marcus Smart is coming off the worst shooting season in NBA history.  Note:  It's in reference to his shot attempts from 3.  He's the worst in NBA history out of any player who consistently took 3 point shots.  His shooting last season was historically bad.

Oh well, I guess I was giving you too much credit.

[mctyson]

When they hit restricted free agency

TP for the correct answer.  Personally I would have drafted Randle over Smart.  However  neither Smart or Randle have done enough so far to make a judgment.  Both have significant areas where they need development.  This is really just Randle's 2nd year of playing because of his 1st year injury.  Smart has missed plenty of games due to injury.  So better to wait for the end of their rookie contract to make a judgment between them.

Didn't Smart get some votes for All-NBA defense? Didn't he play well in a playoff series?

Let's see Randle get a few of those down before discussing this further.

[Big333223]

They're both 22 and are done developing so I think it's safe to make a definitive statement on this right now.