Author Topic: Jamie Collins to the Browns  (Read 4740 times)

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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2016, 12:10:36 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I hope Bill's ego isn't behind this move.  Collins was the heart and soul of our defense. Stunner.

I don't know if I'd go that far. He's certainly been a big part of the defense, but I'd rate Hightower as the defensive leader.

News of this trade shocked me. I already knew the Pats were going to have to make some tough decisions regarding whom to extend, but I didn't expect this. As I've read up on Collins' situation, however, it seems that he'd fallen out of favor with Belichick—not sure why, but it helps explain why this trade happened.

I admit that I'm not great with salary stuff, but I still find the NFL salary cap structure quite confusing. How is it that Denver could give Von Miller a huge deal, also pay pretty well for Aqib Talib, and still have plenty left over for the rest of the defensive unit ... but the Pats have to ship off most of their best defensive players?

I assume that they'll now be able to pay Hightower, but maybe not? Sheard? Ryan?

It's kinda similar to how the Bruins seemingly always have to eventually trade their best players for "salary cap reasons," yet other NHL teams don't seem to have that issue nearly as often. How is a football team supposed to gather and retain a lot of quality defensive talent? You can't have a defense with 1 or 2 "well-paid" players and everyone else on rookie deals and bargain-basement contracts and expect to be good, can you?

As others here have said, Belichick knows a lot more than we do about football, and these things have usually worked out (Richard Seymour, etc.), but it's a bit of a head-scratcher for me nonetheless.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2016, 12:25:33 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Jabaal Sheard, Dont'a Hightower, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon and Sebastian Vollmer are all set to have their contracts expire at the end of the year. Alan Branch, Barkevious Mingo, LeGarrette Blount and Logan Ryan are in the same boat.  The pats offered Collins a contract and he declined.  He was due to be a free agent and they weren't going to franchise him with Butler here.  Makes sense to spend that money elsewhere and get a pick out of it.  They got a 3rd round pick too which they can turn into gold. 

Collins was looking at Von Miller money and around 19 mil a year. The Pats were offering 11 mil and he declined. There was no way they were even getting close to a contract.

This is the media looking for stuff that isn't there again.  They could have hung onto him for the year and just let him walk but they decided to get a draft pick going forward instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. 

Belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years.  Brady is going to be here for another 5 years at least it seems. 

If anything this just goes to show nothing has changed there which is good.
they were likely to get the 3rd round compensatory pick in '18 if they let him walk.

The media is not making something out of nothing. The Patriots traded a 27 year old pro-bowl linebacker from a struggling defense for very minimal value.

This isnt a non-story.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2016, 12:35:38 AM »

Offline walker834

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Jabaal Sheard, Dont'a Hightower, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon and Sebastian Vollmer are all set to have their contracts expire at the end of the year. Alan Branch, Barkevious Mingo, LeGarrette Blount and Logan Ryan are in the same boat.  The pats offered Collins a contract and he declined.  He was due to be a free agent and they weren't going to franchise him with Butler here.  Makes sense to spend that money elsewhere and get a pick out of it.  They got a 3rd round pick too which they can turn into gold. 

Collins was looking at Von Miller money and around 19 mil a year. The Pats were offering 11 mil and he declined. There was no way they were even getting close to a contract.

This is the media looking for stuff that isn't there again.  They could have hung onto him for the year and just let him walk but they decided to get a draft pick going forward instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. 

Belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years.  Brady is going to be here for another 5 years at least it seems. 

If anything this just goes to show nothing has changed there which is good.
they were likely to get the 3rd round compensatory pick in '18 if they let him walk.

The media is not making something out of nothing. The Patriots traded a 27 year old pro-bowl linebacker from a struggling defense for very minimal value.

This isnt a non-story.

It is them looking for stuff that isn't there though.  I was just listening to talk radio when I wrote that and they were in fact looking for stuff that wasn't there why the pats did this. Maybe there is some reason why  that's not known, but i literally just listened to a radio jockey say i can just go by what is put in front of me and can't speculate on that stuff and then went on for an hour about stuff that wasn't even there.

He literally said he can only judge this trade on face value and then went on to pan it without even looking at what was there and said he would change his mind if this stuff that isn't there were true or something. 

I love talk radio.  Can't you tell?

What's there is belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years and does feel he can coach up defense and draft and because of the cap he refuses to overpay for players on that side of the ball and put all their eggs in one basket.  It is in his and brady's basket.  Extending Gronk was a no brainer that way.  It's obviously worked pretty well so far.

So basically what I listened to was a radio DJ not even look at what was there even though he said he was and then speculate on a bunch of other crap and said he'd change his mind if some of it was true.

Filling air time and pandering to stupidity much?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 12:47:34 AM by walker834 »

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2016, 12:50:49 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Jabaal Sheard, Dont'a Hightower, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon and Sebastian Vollmer are all set to have their contracts expire at the end of the year. Alan Branch, Barkevious Mingo, LeGarrette Blount and Logan Ryan are in the same boat.  The pats offered Collins a contract and he declined.  He was due to be a free agent and they weren't going to franchise him with Butler here.  Makes sense to spend that money elsewhere and get a pick out of it.  They got a 3rd round pick too which they can turn into gold. 

Collins was looking at Von Miller money and around 19 mil a year. The Pats were offering 11 mil and he declined. There was no way they were even getting close to a contract.

This is the media looking for stuff that isn't there again.  They could have hung onto him for the year and just let him walk but they decided to get a draft pick going forward instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. 

Belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years.  Brady is going to be here for another 5 years at least it seems. 

If anything this just goes to show nothing has changed there which is good.
they were likely to get the 3rd round compensatory pick in '18 if they let him walk.

The media is not making something out of nothing. The Patriots traded a 27 year old pro-bowl linebacker from a struggling defense for very minimal value.

This isnt a non-story.

It is them looking for stuff that isn't there though.  I was just listening to talk radio when I wrote that and they were in fact looking for stuff that wasn't there why the pats did this. Maybe there is some reason why  that's not known, but i literally just listened to a radio jockey say i can just go by what is put in front of me and can't speculate on that stuff and then went on for an hour about stuff that wasn't even there.

He literally said he can only judge this trade on face value and then went on to pan it without even looking at what was there and said he would change his mind if this stuff that isn't there were true or something. 

I love talk radio.  Can't you tell?

What's there is belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years and does feel he can coach up defense and draft and because of the cap he refuses to overpay for players on that side of the ball and put all their eggs in one basket.  It is in his and brady's basket.  Extending Gronk was a no brainer that way.  It's obviously worked pretty well so far.
Im not sure what you mean.

At face value: 8 games and a playoff stretch of a 27 year old 2nd team all-pro linebacker for a marginally better compensatory situation is a terrible trade.

So the talk radio guy says this: Based on that info, which is the only cold hard info we have, it is a bad trade.

Belichick does not make many bad trades so it makes sense to then look into this and ask what it is about Jamie Collins that made Bill Belichick make what appears to be a bad trade.

Looking for something that isnt there would be drumming up controversy. Saying Collins is a bad teammate would seem to be this much as there is 0 evidence to support that. Saying he takes plays off or doesnt always 'do his job' can be backed up by film and testimony from plugged in guys like Mike Lombardi.

Now maybe nothing is there, but we should really examine the situation because at face value this trade doesnt quite add up.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2016, 12:58:16 AM »

Offline walker834

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I really did just listen to a DJ talk about Collins illness and weight loss but yet he couldn't speculate on this stuff that isn't there and could just judge the trade at face value but failed to see all the other stuff and continued to speculate for an hour while ignoring the obvious reason that the patriots were not going to pay him 19 million dollars.

He was panning the trade at face value without even looking at it at face value saying he'd change his mind if this stuff he couldnt speculate on was true.  But yet he continued to speculate for an hour.

If you are a defensive player in the patriots system unless there is some enigma that hasn't b een seen yet you aren't getting 20 million dollars with Tom Brady here.

The pats will trade you for a draft pick every time.

Talk radio filling air time and pandering to stupidity and creating drama that isn't there.  Bill Belichick doing what is best for the patriots.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 01:23:28 AM by walker834 »

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2016, 01:34:40 AM »

Offline walker834

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I like the pats too because they don't succumb to media pressure. They trust themselves and the process.  Belichick can draft defense.   He can also coach it.  Tom Brady is the guy and that tandem is the reason they win each year. The obvious reason is that.  There are probably other reasons and when you put it all together and looking for a deal that was worthwhile this was it vs losing him this offseason.  Nothing against Jaimie Collins.  He's just another player who developed here and was due for a pay day.  He'll get what he wants which was the money but as far as what was best for the team he wasn't for it.

I'd much rather envy a team like the pats than the media  that drives up ratings at the sacrifice of intelligence.

If the pats have one flaw they play for the process and not to go all in one year and lose the next. They take their chances with Brady each year and Belicicks ability to put pieces around and coach them up..

Is that  a flaw?  Not really it's playing within the constraints of the nfl salary cap.

If the media doesn't get this by now and wants to play the oh people like me just have blind faith in belichick that's just silly.

It's what the patriots do. 

If the media hasn't figured this out by now after the pats doing the same stuff time and time again maybe it's them?

I really did just listen to a talk radio guy panning the trade saying he could only look at it at face value and couldnt speculate.  His reasons were the patriots just made it more difficult and then went on to speculate as to reasons that would change his mind.  So this talk radio guy is apparently smarter than Bill Belichick and I'm the one who doesn't get it and am just having blind faith in belichick?  He even used that line.

I admit I'm a moron for listening to that for an hour because I face palmed through the whole thing. 

Seems to me like he is the one being short sighted and just looking at this season and one player who wanted 20 million dollars at the sacrifice of the entire team. I really shouldn't expect anything less from the media at this point and don't.  Dude would have been happy to find any dirt on Collins he could have as well just to make himself feel better about it, while completely ignoring the reason the trade was made.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 02:37:50 AM by walker834 »

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #81 on: November 01, 2016, 02:42:50 AM »

Offline walker834

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If the patriots were cheap that's one thing but they pay guys and spend that money regardless.  It's more about when they can. Having that flexibility vs going all in on players and not having that control over where to spend the  money each  year is much mroe valuable than one guy unless you are Tom Brady.

The reason they don't extend these guys is for that reason so they remain in control of where to spend it so they can be competitive and have a chance each and every year. 

 It's nothing against collins either.  He wasn't going to take 11 mil or whatever for the team and that's understandable.  It's a shame in ways and he's playing the game himself and playing within the cap and what's best for him.  He shouldn't have to do that. So he was traded for a pick so the pats can replenish with cheaper talent and develop those players and he can get his due.   

It was done with the best intent for all parties.  That is what is great about it. Collins got dealt to cleveland and will have the ability to be a free agent this year.  I more question why the browns would give up a pick if they aren't going to extend him though.

The pats are going to spend that money regardless.  It's more their choice where they spend it though vs having it invested in a guy that is a linebacker and really makes how many plays a year with  Tom Brady here?  Collins is much easier replaced and not worth 20 million here.  He may be elsewhere.

The pats have linebackers up their butts.  Missing Collins a few plays this year isn't going to make or break a championship.

Collins because of the salary structure of the nfl was due for a pay day and he is not worth that here.  It's really that simple.

Seymour, Collins, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis, Welker, Randy Moss, Milloy, Branch etc, etc. The list goes on. Nothing against these guys.  They are replaceable and the patriots have proved that. with good drafting and signings and putting their money where it counts.

Honestly these radio dj's are just spewing the same rhetoric. They must be new here.  I could understand that but that's not even it.  They even mention this stuff then ignore it.  It's just absurd after a while. Not seeing the forest through the trees. They aren't new that's the thing.  They've been spewing the same nonsense since the beginning of time lol.

It's the patriots running their team from a position of strength and keeping that flexibility within the team vs giving it to one player. Tom Brady is the only player on this team worth that. He is the G.O.A.T. though.   This is coming from someone who grew up a diehard Emmitt Smith fan and watched those rivalries with Joe Montana very intentively.  Tom Brady is the G.O.A.T.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 03:17:16 AM by walker834 »

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #82 on: November 01, 2016, 07:43:12 AM »

Offline eja117

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Seymour, Collins, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis, Welker, Randy Moss, Milloy, Branch, etc


None of them were traded in the middle of a Super Bowl hunt, right? That's the difference here.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #83 on: November 01, 2016, 07:54:57 AM »

Offline littleteapot

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Seymour, Collins, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis, Welker, Randy Moss, Milloy, Branch, etc


None of them were traded in the middle of a Super Bowl hunt, right? That's the difference here.
No, the difference is we actually got something for the guys we traded, and the guys we let go for nothing weren't traded for no reason.

We traded Collins for the same thing we would have got anyway by letting him go for nothing.

If anyone really thinks the Collins situation is similar to the Welker situation should think it would be a better idea to trade Welker for a ballboy than finish a winning season with him and let him leave in free agency.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #84 on: November 01, 2016, 10:12:13 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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I really did just listen to a DJ talk about Collins illness and weight loss but yet he couldn't speculate on this stuff that isn't there and could just judge the trade at face value but failed to see all the other stuff and continued to speculate for an hour while ignoring the obvious reason that the patriots were not going to pay him 19 million dollars.

He was panning the trade at face value without even looking at it at face value saying he'd change his mind if this stuff he couldnt speculate on was true.  But yet he continued to speculate for an hour.

If you are a defensive player in the patriots system unless there is some enigma that hasn't b een seen yet you aren't getting 20 million dollars with Tom Brady here.

The pats will trade you for a draft pick every time.

Talk radio filling air time and pandering to stupidity and creating drama that isn't there.  Bill Belichick doing what is best for the patriots.

Everybody knows that Bill wasn't gonna pay him $19 million.  The issue is that he didn't actually trade Collins for a 3rd round pick - he essentially traded 8 games + playoffs of Collins and a 2018 3rd round compensatory pick for a 2017 3rd round compensatory pick.  You don't trade a pro-bowl linebacker during a superbowl run just to move a pick up one year.  If you consider that part of it, there has to be something more to this (it's not just a "we didn't want to pay him" situation, because, again, not paying him would have gotten us the same pick one year later)
I'm bitter.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #85 on: November 01, 2016, 11:08:00 AM »

Offline walker834

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All I know is the nfl is different now than it was in the 80's and 90's when there was no free agency and players got paid whatever teams wanted to pay them and teams like hte cowboys  and niners could build dynasties.  There is an actual cap now where Belichick is not paying anyone 20 million dollars not named Tom Brady.  It does not fit under the salary cap structure of the team. Blame the nfl. I'm sure the nfl will figure out soem way to blame the patriots and say they are cheating when all they are doing is playing  within the rules of the cap. They have Brady locked up and only so  much money to put a competitive team each year around him. Paying a defensive player 20 million dollars would completely ruin that philosophy.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2016, 11:25:42 AM »

Offline littleteapot

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All I know is the nfl is different now than it was in the 80's and 90's when there was no free agency and players got paid whatever teams wanted to pay them and teams like hte cowboys  and niners could build dynasties.  There is an actual cap now where Belichick is not paying anyone 20 million dollars not named Tom Brady.  It does not fit under the salary cap structure of the team. Blame the nfl. I'm sure the nfl will figure out soem way to blame the patriots and say they are cheating when all they are doing is playing  within the rules of the cap. They have Brady locked up and only so  much money to put a competitive team each year around him. Paying a defensive player 20 million dollars would completely ruin that philosophy.
I don't know why you're still not getting this, but the trade has nothing to do with the contract he wants. We can keep Collins till the end of the year, let another team pay him 20mil and still get a compensatory 3rd rd pick, which is EXACTLY what we're getting in the trade.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #87 on: November 01, 2016, 11:31:54 AM »

Offline nebist

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I think people get the economic realities of the NFL.  If the Pats didn't want to pay Collins and wanted to allocate resources elsewhere next year and in years to come, fair enough.  However, what is "shocking" about this trade is the compensation received.  If the Pats traded Collins for a first rounder, it would be business as usual (well, for Belichick) and noone would bat an eye.  However, to only receive a compensatory 3rd rounder for him (the same pick we would have received had he left as a free agent just bumped up one year earlier) is the shocking part.  Basically, the Pats could have played out the year with Collins, let him walk, and receive essentially the same level of compensation for his leaving.  What that means is that this was a move to get Collins off the team rather than a move to get a valuable piece of compensation from the Browns.  Therefore, the only possible conclusion is that Belichick viewed Collins as a net negative to this year's Patriots team.  Again, prior to yesterday, I hadn't heard anyone anywhere espouse that opinion about Collins, and, again, that is why the trade is shocking.  Unless people think Collins play had dropped off so much that it was making the Pats worse on balance (I don't think this), it is totally fair to conclude that Collins must have had pretty severe chemistry issues with the team in order for Belichick to think dumping him was a positive.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2016, 11:38:34 AM »

Offline eja117

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My bet is that he did something recently.

Like Spikes. He does something. He's gone.  Belichick's reactions are often swift. It's some sort of statement. "This guy was on slightly thin ice. Wanted way too much money. Then he really ticked me off, so I'm taking the pick now. I'm dealing with this now."

Belichick isn't known for waiting around a lot.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2016, 11:50:13 AM »

Offline walker834

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http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/11/01/nfl-jamie-collins-new-england-patriots-trade-cleveland-browns

Here is a good article that sums it up.  The patriots would have gotten a compensatory pick but there was no guarantee it would be as high as a 3rd rounder. Here they get a  4th rounder at worst. Collins wanted more money than Tom Brady is making and was gone from the team anyways and was not buying into what the patriots were doing both in theory and on the field.

This is still nothing new...

People weren't getting this either.  I listened to it all day yesterday and they definately weren't.

There is nothing new here.  Yeah the pats could have held out for better or whatever but how? He was gone at the end of the year?

They basically guaranteed themselves a 4th round pick and possibly a compensatory 3rd rounder which is the best they could have done anyways vs keeping a player that was not in tune with what they were trying to do.

You are either with the pats or you aren't.  If you aren't Bill will trade you for a draft pick every time.  Nothing new here.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 11:57:51 AM by walker834 »