Author Topic: Jamie Collins to the Browns  (Read 3595 times)

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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2016, 03:45:07 PM »

Offline littleteapot

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Ill agree with that.

But I think it applies to the Red Sox much more than the Patriots. Every move Belichick makes is a calculated football decision I believe.
I think this feels different from some Bilichick trades in the past because it was in the middle of a heated contract negotiation, but I think he sometimes falls victim to thinking everyone on his roster is replaceable and he is so great he can coach anyone up. He is 90% of the time, but you still need talent. In this case you need a guy who can chase down backs and tight ends in the passing game. I'm sure Roberts impacts the game in a ton of ways I can't recognize, but does he have the athleticism to chase Leveon Bell to the sideline or down the field in the playoffs?

The one other time I think the Pats got way to personal during a contract negotiation was with Mankins. In response to the Pats apparently lying to him about the franchise tag, he said:
"Right now, this is about principle with me and keeping your word and how you treat people. This is what I thought the foundation of the Patriots was built on. Apparently, I was wrong. Growing up, I was taught a man's word is his bond. Obviously this isn't the case with the Patriots."

He shouldn't have said that publicly, but I think he said it because the Pats actually did make him a promise and broke it. And then they made him apologize as a condition to eventually signing him. This is a football team, not the freaking Corleone family.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2016, 03:54:08 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I think this feels different from some Bilichick trades in the past because it was in the middle of a heated contract negotiation, but I think he sometimes falls victim to thinking everyone on his roster is replaceable and he is so great he can coach anyone up. He is 90% of the time, but you still need talent. In this case you need a guy who can chase down backs and tight ends in the passing game. I'm sure Roberts impacts the game in a ton of ways I can't recognize, but does he have the athleticism to chase Leveon Bell to the sideline or down the field in the playoffs?
Despite his natural athleticism, Collins wasn't always great in coverage.

It's also worth noting that he missed a month last year with "illness", came back seemingly having lost a ton of weight (not in a good way) -- and we still have no idea what it was.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2016, 03:56:57 PM »

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The now infamous 28 yard run where Collins "does whatever he wants"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRhoKmg2NRI

Yeah, I can kind of see that. He should have been there to take down the RB after he got past the left tackle, but instead tried to have a homerun play where he stops him in the backfield.  If he did that kind of thing regularly despite Belichick and Patricia telling him not to, I could see how Belichick could stop trusting him.  This still seems a little extreme, though
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2016, 04:16:35 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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I think this feels different from some Bilichick trades in the past because it was in the middle of a heated contract negotiation, but I think he sometimes falls victim to thinking everyone on his roster is replaceable and he is so great he can coach anyone up. He is 90% of the time, but you still need talent. In this case you need a guy who can chase down backs and tight ends in the passing game. I'm sure Roberts impacts the game in a ton of ways I can't recognize, but does he have the athleticism to chase Leveon Bell to the sideline or down the field in the playoffs?
Despite his natural athleticism, Collins wasn't always great in coverage.

It's also worth noting that he missed a month last year with "illness", came back seemingly having lost a ton of weight (not in a good way) -- and we still have no idea what it was.

I almost forgot about that! I remember one game he hurdled over the line to block a field goal attempt and then he was missing for the next few games.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2016, 05:36:57 PM »

Offline eja117

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Sports radio making the case that Belichick just didn't want him around anymore.

I'm fine with that but then you have to admit it's another busted draft pick.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2016, 05:44:59 PM »

Offline Redz

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Sports radio making the case that Belichick just didn't want him around anymore.

I'm fine with that but then you have to admit it's another busted draft pick.

He was a key part of a super bowl team and a darn good player during his time here. I don't necessarily agree with the timing of the trade, but he was going to go for more than he's worth based on his quality of output so I don't know that it's necessarily a busted pick. 

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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2016, 06:16:40 PM »

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Kind of interesting that as Barkevious Mingo has played well at the same position that collins has been viewed as less relevant.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2016, 09:33:22 PM »

Offline Cman

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I think this feels different from some Bilichick trades in the past because it was in the middle of a heated contract negotiation, but I think he sometimes falls victim to thinking everyone on his roster is replaceable and he is so great he can coach anyone up. He is 90% of the time, but you still need talent. In this case you need a guy who can chase down backs and tight ends in the passing game. I'm sure Roberts impacts the game in a ton of ways I can't recognize, but does he have the athleticism to chase Leveon Bell to the sideline or down the field in the playoffs?
Despite his natural athleticism, Collins wasn't always great in coverage.

It's also worth noting that he missed a month last year with "illness", came back seemingly having lost a ton of weight (not in a good way) -- and we still have no idea what it was.

I've heard this "illness" thing brought up before. Is there speculation about what was going on there, or not?
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2016, 10:04:48 PM »

Offline eja117

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This is one of the few times i feel like Patriots revisionism has come into play. Last week everyone thought he was an excellent young LB.  Now all of a sudden he was this and that. Well that's your fault on some level. Like you expect me to believe he was a good player all this time and then all of a sudden in the middle of contract negotiations he starts being a jerk? Really?  He stops listening out of nowhere during the worst possible time?

If you didn't like him so much and it was such a problem why did you open negotiations to try to keep him?

Bottom line is if he took some sort of way below market deal he'd still be here, but he wanted what he was worth so he's gone. Belichick knew it so he controlled where he went and took the pick this year. If the defense gets injuries it will probably come back to haunt them and I've seen that too many times on this team. 

Hopefully Elandon Roberts is the real deal, because now he has to be.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2016, 10:37:08 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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This is one of the few times i feel like Patriots revisionism has come into play. Last week everyone thought he was an excellent young LB.  Now all of a sudden he was this and that. Well that's your fault on some level. Like you expect me to believe he was a good player all this time and then all of a sudden in the middle of contract negotiations he starts being a jerk? Really?  He stops listening out of nowhere during the worst possible time?

If you didn't like him so much and it was such a problem why did you open negotiations to try to keep him?

Bottom line is if he took some sort of way below market deal he'd still be here, but he wanted what he was worth so he's gone. Belichick knew it so he controlled where he went and took the pick this year. If the defense gets injuries it will probably come back to haunt them and I've seen that too many times on this team. 

Hopefully Elandon Roberts is the real deal, because now he has to be.
My biggest problem with the deal is that if Hightower get hurt(a very real possibility) we are doomed.

Now we supposedly offered him 11 mil a year which is pretty high. It shows Belichick doesnt think too badly of him. That would make him the 6th richest linebacker in the league. Now that doesnt account for the upcoming FA linebackers that would make more than that but still.

I completely understand why Belichick doesnt want to pay Collins. I dont get the timing of the deal.

Is the kind of complicated but overall not too substantial value returned on this deal really worth being without an 11 million dollar dude for the playoff run.

Because I do not believe that Belichick would do that, I feel that there must be other motivations behind the trade.

The Collins a casual fan like myself saw was a beast. however, when I see Belichick make a move like this I look deeper. why did belichick see this guy as unnecessary for the playoff run. Based on Lombardis tweets etc it seems entirely plausible to me that Collins was guilty of not doing his job in favor of hunting for the big play.

With Van Noy, Mingo, Roberts, and Hightower they obviously feel they have enough LB talent to sustain his loss especially if he wasnt playing fully within the system.
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2016, 10:37:08 PM »

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Sports radio making the case that Belichick just didn't want him around anymore.

I'm fine with that but then you have to admit it's another busted draft pick.

He was a key part of a super bowl team and a darn good player during his time here. I don't necessarily agree with the timing of the trade, but he was going to go for more than he's worth based on his quality of output so I don't know that it's necessarily a busted pick.


Yeah, I think in no way does this trade mean the pick was a "Bust." I think with the hard cap, the greater number of players on a team, and the draft rules, NFL picks are a bit different than NBA picks. NFL picks are a few years older and more "ready" than NBA picks, generally, and NFL careers are pretty rough and short, relatively, so while in the NBA there is the sense that you use most of the rookie contract developing a guy then the first post-rookie max extension is most of their prime, then their next max extension is rest of prime and beginning of decline, I think it's different in the NFL and you are expected to get usage out of young players.

So if we draft Collins with a second rounder, get 3.5 above average seasons, including a superbowl, from him, then get a compensatory 3rd, that's pretty good usage out of that 2013 second rounder.

This is one of the few times i feel like Patriots revisionism has come into play. Last week everyone thought he was an excellent young LB.  Now all of a sudden he was this and that. Well that's your fault on some level. Like you expect me to believe he was a good player all this time and then all of a sudden in the middle of contract negotiations he starts being a jerk? Really?  He stops listening out of nowhere during the worst possible time?

If you didn't like him so much and it was such a problem why did you open negotiations to try to keep him?

Bottom line is if he took some sort of way below market deal he'd still be here, but he wanted what he was worth so he's gone. Belichick knew it so he controlled where he went and took the pick this year. If the defense gets injuries it will probably come back to haunt them and I've seen that too many times on this team. 

Hopefully Elandon Roberts is the real deal, because now he has to be.

I agree with a lot of this. I don't want to trash Collins on the way out. He's a great player. But they have to keep Butler, Hightower, and others. I'm also not privy to practices; they really like the guy from the Lions, and I read some hopeful articles that he was really out of position in Detroit, and maybe better suited for a Collins type role. Same with Mingo. Then there's Roberts. So if they truly believe they can fill the gaps of Collins from within, and get a better pick, I get it. And if there was some behind the scenes / locker room stuff, I get it (but I doubt there was much there). So I don't know if he was traded out of spite because he asked for too much or if the Pats genuinely thought they can fill his role with the pieces they have, so let's pick up a better draft pick. I really hope its the latter. Brady only has so many years left; we learned last year that getting home field matters, so any edge this year to get the 1 seed matters. Any edge to win it all matters. So if they really hurt this year's team just to make a point, that would be disappointing. But if they thought Collins is gone after this year anyway, we don't need him this year based on our other players, and a 3rd rounder this offseason is more valuable to Brady's window than a 3rd rounder in 2018 (from Collins walking as a FA), then I get it.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2016, 10:42:21 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Sports radio making the case that Belichick just didn't want him around anymore.

I'm fine with that but then you have to admit it's another busted draft pick.

He was a key part of a super bowl team and a darn good player during his time here. I don't necessarily agree with the timing of the trade, but he was going to go for more than he's worth based on his quality of output so I don't know that it's necessarily a busted pick.


Yeah, I think in no way does this trade mean the pick was a "Bust." I think with the hard cap, the greater number of players on a team, and the draft rules, NFL picks are a bit different than NBA picks. NFL picks are a few years older and more "ready" than NBA picks, generally, and NFL careers are pretty rough and short, relatively, so while in the NBA there is the sense that you use most of the rookie contract developing a guy then the first post-rookie max extension is most of their prime, then their next max extension is rest of prime and beginning of decline, I think it's different in the NFL and you are expected to get usage out of young players.

So if we draft Collins with a second rounder, get 3.5 above average seasons, including a superbowl, from him, then get a compensatory 3rd, that's pretty good usage out of that 2013 second rounder.

This is one of the few times i feel like Patriots revisionism has come into play. Last week everyone thought he was an excellent young LB.  Now all of a sudden he was this and that. Well that's your fault on some level. Like you expect me to believe he was a good player all this time and then all of a sudden in the middle of contract negotiations he starts being a jerk? Really?  He stops listening out of nowhere during the worst possible time?

If you didn't like him so much and it was such a problem why did you open negotiations to try to keep him?

Bottom line is if he took some sort of way below market deal he'd still be here, but he wanted what he was worth so he's gone. Belichick knew it so he controlled where he went and took the pick this year. If the defense gets injuries it will probably come back to haunt them and I've seen that too many times on this team. 

Hopefully Elandon Roberts is the real deal, because now he has to be.

I agree with a lot of this. I don't want to trash Collins on the way out. He's a great player. But they have to keep Butler, Hightower, and others. I'm also not privy to practices; they really like the guy from the Lions, and I read some hopeful articles that he was really out of position in Detroit, and maybe better suited for a Collins type role. Same with Mingo. Then there's Roberts. So if they truly believe they can fill the gaps of Collins from within, and get a better pick, I get it. And if there was some behind the scenes / locker room stuff, I get it (but I doubt there was much there). So I don't know if he was traded out of spite because he asked for too much or if the Pats genuinely thought they can fill his role with the pieces they have, so let's pick up a better draft pick. I really hope its the latter. Brady only has so many years left; we learned last year that getting home field matters, so any edge this year to get the 1 seed matters. Any edge to win it all matters. So if they really hurt this year's team just to make a point, that would be disappointing. But if they thought Collins is gone after this year anyway, we don't need him this year based on our other players, and a 3rd rounder this offseason is more valuable to Brady's window than a 3rd rounder in 2018 (from Collins walking as a FA), then I get it.
I cant imagine having a 3rd rounder a year earlier helps Bradys window more than having a 2nd team all-pro linebacker for the stretch, but Bills the GOAT...
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Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2016, 11:28:56 PM »

Offline walker834

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Honestly most of Bill's moves have come on the defensive side of the ball.  They refuse to overpay for guys like this.  He was a defensive coordinator and probably does feel that talent on some level is overrated and not worth paying for on the defensive side of the ball. If it means keeping Butler and Ryan and guys like that then good. The pats have linebackers out the butt.  Hghtower is still here. Ninkovich can slide there.   Elandin Roberts has played well as a rookie.  The have Mcclellin. Traded for Mingo.

As long as the Pats have Brady and Belicheck I'm not too worried.  They have so much talent on offense and with the cap there has to be some sacrifice somewhere.  It coming at Jamie Collins expense if  you have followed the pats at all is not that big a surprise.

Keeping Gronk was obviously a priority.  Collins they got a pick for him going forward and he will be replaced.

Makes sense.

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2016, 11:35:41 PM »

Offline walker834

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Jabaal Sheard, Dont'a Hightower, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon and Sebastian Vollmer are all set to have their contracts expire at the end of the year. Alan Branch, Barkevious Mingo, LeGarrette Blount and Logan Ryan are in the same boat.  The pats offered Collins a contract and he declined.  He was due to be a free agent and they weren't going to franchise him with Butler here.  Makes sense to spend that money elsewhere and get a pick out of it.  They got a 3rd round pick too which they can turn into gold. 

Collins was looking at Von Miller money and around 19 mil a year. The Pats were offering 11 mil and he declined. There was no way they were even getting close to a contract.

This is the media looking for stuff that isn't there again.  They could have hung onto him for the year and just let him walk but they decided to get a draft pick going forward instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. 

Belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years.  Brady is going to be here for another 5 years at least it seems. 

If anything this just goes to show nothing has changed there which is good. 

Re: Jamie Collins to the Browns
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2016, 11:47:15 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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I don't mind that they didn't want to sign Collins to a huge deal. I won't be surprised if Butler walks. I think they get Hightower in on team friendly deal, but he'll prob walk too. There are too many bad teams with money that want to pay guys with playoff success.

Few knew much about Collins before Bill got to coach him. We will see how he does in Cleveland. I hope he does well, and wouldn't mind seeing the Browns win a couple more games.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 11:53:08 PM by green_bballers13 »