Greg Monroe is a guy we really should be looking at right now...

[Future Celtics Owner]

Okafor is a longer and bigger Monroe...with a longer term contract and coming off a rookie year in a horrible situation to boot!

Okafor baby!

THIS THIS AND THIS

I'm not sure we are ready to wait for Okafor to develop. He could be a scoring presence immediately, but bigs normally take until their second contract to train their instincts to perform the correct defensive rotations.

I like Okafor. I'd take him. But bigs have to anchor a defense. They have to be flawless in their positioning or else the other team gets points. Okafor isn't there yet. Under Stevens he would get there, but not for a while.

If we got Okafor, it would be similar to what the Knicks did with Kristaps by forming a core around him that was older, thereby forming two separate timelines and a disjointed core.

Okafor wouldn't be ready until Horford was declining.

Not that Monroe is any better, but I'd rather neither.

Your right and your wrong...IMO Okafor already has a strong foundation both physically(very controversial but it is my expert opinion lol), skill and ability, and his familiarity and knowledge of the game.
Your right.....Legit BIG CENTERS like Okafor usually take some time, or after their rookie contract, before they are physically able to apply their skill and knowledge.
Physical Abilities- Naturally muscular and large CENTERS(ESPECIALLY YOUNG ONE'S) ALWAYS need to get better at:
coordination, balance, footwork, movement, conditioning, motor, quickness, agility, defensive slides, explosiveness

What makes Okafor extremely rare is also what creates the illusion that he will struggle in certain areas of his game. His biggest strengths were completely used against him LAST YEAR, literally everything....which is great because it has lowered his value and we can get him.

IMO Okafor was born with physical gifts that when molded will make him a superstar. He has great balance and a low center of gravity. He has the best footwork I've seen from someone his age. His movement is unbelievable and he has very nimble feet....he is like a ballerina!

Judging from last year we all can agree he needs to work on his physical self, and in these areas:
-conditioning
-rotations and slides
- motor
-running the floor
-agility
- stamina

Well, I can tell by watching him but the press is that he has lowered his weight by 15lbs from his playing weight at the end of last season or before he got hurt. He also worked on his conditioning this summer and defensive drills with trainers...but other than 1 or 2 videos I saw, and was impressed with, there is no way to tell yet how much he has progressed in terms of agility/slides/etc.
But he also is now on minute restrictions because he bumped his knee in September during a scrimmage on the same knee he had surgery on.

[Moranis]

Doesn't fit our style of play at all, potentially ruins our cap space in summer. Also the rebounding thing is not such a big deal. The way we play means the guards get more involved in the rebounds while the big men box out. It isn't a reflection on the individual, it's a team effort

It's a huge deal. If we were capable of rebounding the ball better; I'm sure that we would win games more comfortably than we are seeing right now. Those second chance baskets are killing us, which we e.g. saw against Chicago.

But I agree, Monroe doesn't fit our playing style. We must hope that Olynyk manages to solve some of our problems in the rebounding department.

In the post-game press conference, Brad said that strong rebounding by our guards is "the way we have to play" as a result of our personnel.  So the answer is yes, we need better front-court rebounding.  However, Greg Monroe is not the guy, unless he can develop a 3-point shot.

big guys don't need a 3 point shot.  Somewhere on here I posted the top 15 qualified players for rebounding from last year.  Only like 3 had more than 1 3 point shot a game.  This notion that all big men must shoot is just nonsense that isn't borne in reality.

It is the trend in the "pace-and-space" NBA, and also happens to be what Brad would like for his system.  We already have Olynyk and Horford as big men who can shoot the 3.  Porzingis obviously shoot the 3, but even Boogie is starting to take three's.  It started with the stretch-4, and now stretch-5 will become more common too.

It's a perceived trend, not an actual one.  The top 10 qualified rebounders last year were in order: Drummond, Jordan, Whiteside, Howard, Cousins, P. Gasol, Gobert, Towns, Davis, Randle.  Only Towns and Cousins shot at least 1 3 pointer and only Howard and Gasol are past their prime.  The next 5 were Love, Gortat, Green, Pachulia, Valanciunas.  Green and Love the only "shooters".  The next 5 were T. Young, Millsap, T. Thompson, Vucevic, Monroe.  Only Millsap was a shooter (though Young has shot more in the past, he didn't last year).  Next 5 must have a bunch of shooters: Chandler, Faried, Aldridge, Sullinger, Durant.  So you get your 1st non-big in Durant and Aldridge and Sully, but not Chandler and Faired.  The next 5 and rounding out the top 30 were: Favors, Kanter, Noel, Biyombo, Lopez (who was tied with Westbrook and Randolph).  So of the big men not a single shooter in the group.  So of the top 30 big men rebounders last year (i.e. no Durant or Westbrook) only 7 shot at least 1 three pointer a game last year.  There is no new trend where big men are shooters.  Some guys have that range, but some big men have always had more range and better touch than other big men.  This is nothing new.

A big man doesn't necessarily need to have an outside shot under Brad Stevens, but he probably needs to be a good defender if he doesn't and he absolutely needs to be someone who will commit to good defensive effort. 

If you wanted to make a shopping list for possible trade targets among top rebounders, toss out anyone who is both a poor outside shooter and a poor defender, then downgrade anyone left who has a questionable motor on defense.  Don't take them off the list, but decrease how much you are willing to give up for those players.

good coaches adapt to the talent and players that they have.  Maybe Stevens coaches the way he does because Boston hasn't had a great big man under Stevens (Horford is very good, not great and this his 1st year).  If Boston had Greg Monroe, Stevens would maximize his potential because Stevens is a great coach.  Shaq is a terrible player in the triangle offense, so Jackson modified the Triangle to better utilize Shaq.  Pop has consistently changed up his coaching to maximize the talent from the Twin Towers to much more guard/wing oriented play today.

If Horford is "not great", than what is Monroe? Garbage?

They are different players, though Horford is obviously a better player, Monroe is badly being misused in Milwaukee.  My point was more that Monroe is a traditional big man i.e. post player while Horford certainly is not (at least anymore).  Monroe has respectable post moves and would easily be Boston's best rebounder and probably the best overall rebounder that Boston has had since Stevens became the coach (given he plays more minutes than Sully and still performs in the same range on a % basis). 

[Moranis]

Now that Embiid can play, it is stark how much better he is than Okafor.  And how badly they are on the court together.  Philly has to be kicking itself for passing up on Porzingis, who would fit in so much better with Embiid. 

Okafor's trade value is declining by the minute.

Sorry for ranting here, on a Greg Monroe thread. Couldn't resist.

And no, I don't want Monroe either. Yes, we need size, but that will come either through draft (Zizic, future Brooklyn pick(s)) or blockbuster trade (Cousins).

why does acquiring Monroe stop the other things from happening?  Especially if Monroe is as cheap as people think.

The price for Monroe is probably not cheap, when you consider that he is a guy who should be coming off the bench if he was acquired by Boston.

why wouldn't Monroe be the starting center next to Horford?  I actually think they have a nice complimentary skill set.  Monroe is a very solid rebounder with respectable post moves.  Horford is a much more versatile offensive and defensive player.  I think they would compliment each other quite well.  And would expect Horford to actually be better playing next to Monroe than he is right now.  Horford's game has really suffered not having a legitimate big player next to him (in Atlanta it was a PF, but the point still remains). 

If Monroe can be acquired for not much more than a salary dump, then Boston should absolutely acquire him as he fills a real need on the team and his salary is reasonable for his skill set. 

[max215]

Okafor is a longer and bigger Monroe...with a longer term contract and coming off a rookie year in a horrible situation to boot!

Okafor baby!

THIS THIS AND THIS

Our biggest weakness is rebounding, so we should add a historically bad rebounder?

[Ilikesports17]

Okafor is a longer and bigger Monroe...with a longer term contract and coming off a rookie year in a horrible situation to boot!

Okafor baby!

who is worse at defense, worse at rebounding, has an injury history, has recently unveiled character issues and will cost substantially more to acquire.

[alldaboston]

Now that Embiid can play, it is stark how much better he is than Okafor.  And how badly they are on the court together.  Philly has to be kicking itself for passing up on Porzingis, who would fit in so much better with Embiid. 

Okafor's trade value is declining by the minute.

Sorry for ranting here, on a Greg Monroe thread. Couldn't resist.

And no, I don't want Monroe either. Yes, we need size, but that will come either through draft (Zizic, future Brooklyn pick(s)) or blockbuster trade (Cousins).

why does acquiring Monroe stop the other things from happening?  Especially if Monroe is as cheap as people think.

The price for Monroe is probably not cheap, when you consider that he is a guy who should be coming off the bench if he was acquired by Boston.

why wouldn't Monroe be the starting center next to Horford?  I actually think they have a nice complimentary skill set.  Monroe is a very solid rebounder with respectable post moves.  Horford is a much more versatile offensive and defensive player.  I think they would compliment each other quite well.  And would expect Horford to actually be better playing next to Monroe than he is right now.  Horford's game has really suffered not having a legitimate big player next to him (in Atlanta it was a PF, but the point still remains). 

If Monroe can be acquired for not much more than a salary dump, then Boston should absolutely acquire him as he fills a real need on the team and his salary is reasonable for his skill set.

I don't mind the Monroe fit that much, personally.

My issue is his next contract. Do we ink him to a long term deal? Or do we essentially trade for him as a 1 year rental?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Okafor is a longer and bigger Monroe...with a longer term contract and coming off a rookie year in a horrible situation to boot!

Okafor baby!

THIS THIS AND THIS

I'm not sure we are ready to wait for Okafor to develop. He could be a scoring presence immediately, but bigs normally take until their second contract to train their instincts to perform the correct defensive rotations.

I like Okafor. I'd take him. But bigs have to anchor a defense. They have to be flawless in their positioning or else the other team gets points. Okafor isn't there yet. Under Stevens he would get there, but not for a while.

If we got Okafor, it would be similar to what the Knicks did with Kristaps by forming a core around him that was older, thereby forming two separate timelines and a disjointed core.

Okafor wouldn't be ready until Horford was declining.

Not that Monroe is any better, but I'd rather neither.

Your right and your wrong...IMO Okafor already has a strong foundation both physically(very controversial but it is my expert opinion lol), skill and ability, and his familiarity and knowledge of the game.
Your right.....Legit BIG CENTERS like Okafor usually take some time, or after their rookie contract, before they are physically able to apply their skill and knowledge.
Physical Abilities- Naturally muscular and large CENTERS(ESPECIALLY YOUNG ONE'S) ALWAYS need to get better at:
coordination, balance, footwork, movement, conditioning, motor, quickness, agility, defensive slides, explosiveness

What makes Okafor extremely rare is also what creates the illusion that he will struggle in certain areas of his game. His biggest strengths were completely used against him LAST YEAR, literally everything....which is great because it has lowered his value and we can get him.

IMO Okafor was born with physical gifts that when molded will make him a superstar. He has great balance and a low center of gravity. He has the best footwork I've seen from someone his age. His movement is unbelievable and he has very nimble feet....he is like a ballerina!

Judging from last year we all can agree he needs to work on his physical self, and in these areas:
-conditioning
-rotations and slides
- motor
-running the floor
-agility
- stamina

Well, I can tell by watching him but the press is that he has lowered his weight by 15lbs from his playing weight at the end of last season or before he got hurt. He also worked on his conditioning this summer and defensive drills with trainers...but other than 1 or 2 videos I saw, and was impressed with, there is no way to tell yet how much he has progressed in terms of agility/slides/etc.
But he also is now on minute restrictions because he bumped his knee in September during a scrimmage on the same knee he had surgery on.

I agree that he is advanced physically. The problem is not the muscles, but the brain, the reaction time. I don't think his defensive reaction time will be there for a while.

[Moranis]

Now that Embiid can play, it is stark how much better he is than Okafor.  And how badly they are on the court together.  Philly has to be kicking itself for passing up on Porzingis, who would fit in so much better with Embiid. 

Okafor's trade value is declining by the minute.

Sorry for ranting here, on a Greg Monroe thread. Couldn't resist.

And no, I don't want Monroe either. Yes, we need size, but that will come either through draft (Zizic, future Brooklyn pick(s)) or blockbuster trade (Cousins).

why does acquiring Monroe stop the other things from happening?  Especially if Monroe is as cheap as people think.

The price for Monroe is probably not cheap, when you consider that he is a guy who should be coming off the bench if he was acquired by Boston.

why wouldn't Monroe be the starting center next to Horford?  I actually think they have a nice complimentary skill set.  Monroe is a very solid rebounder with respectable post moves.  Horford is a much more versatile offensive and defensive player.  I think they would compliment each other quite well.  And would expect Horford to actually be better playing next to Monroe than he is right now.  Horford's game has really suffered not having a legitimate big player next to him (in Atlanta it was a PF, but the point still remains). 

If Monroe can be acquired for not much more than a salary dump, then Boston should absolutely acquire him as he fills a real need on the team and his salary is reasonable for his skill set.

I don't mind the Monroe fit that much, personally.

My issue is his next contract. Do we ink him to a long term deal? Or do we essentially trade for him as a 1 year rental?

If he performs I have no issue paying him as I think he is a real fit with very little redundancy.  I also don't think Boston is going to do much of anything in free agency this summer so I don't mind having Monroe take up that cap space.

[MJohnnyboy]

Something that has hurt Monroe's value is that he never played with the right team. In Detroit, he played under Andre Drummond's shadow and in Milwaukee right now he's playing on a team with hardly any floor spacers. I think there's a strong possibility he would thrive in Boston but I'd only want him to come here if I knew he was going to opt out after this season.

I also want him only if he's the team's last resort as an asset. There are better players the Celtics can get, but Monroe would be the cheapest.

[Surferdad]

Something that has hurt Monroe's value is that he never played with the right team. In Detroit, he played under Andre Drummond's shadow and in Milwaukee right now he's playing on a team with hardly any floor spacers. I think there's a strong possibility he would thrive in Boston but I'd only want him to come here if I knew he was going to opt out after this season.

I also want him only if he's the team's last resort as an asset. There are better players the Celtics can get, but Monroe would be the cheapest.

Good angle.. Ainge has a knack for finding guys that are not thriving in their current situation (IT, Jae).

[celticsclay]

Okafor is a longer and bigger Monroe...with a longer term contract and coming off a rookie year in a horrible situation to boot!

Okafor baby!

THIS THIS AND THIS

I'm not sure we are ready to wait for Okafor to develop. He could be a scoring presence immediately, but bigs normally take until their second contract to train their instincts to perform the correct defensive rotations.

I like Okafor. I'd take him. But bigs have to anchor a defense. They have to be flawless in their positioning or else the other team gets points. Okafor isn't there yet. Under Stevens he would get there, but not for a while.

If we got Okafor, it would be similar to what the Knicks did with Kristaps by forming a core around him that was older, thereby forming two separate timelines and a disjointed core.

Okafor wouldn't be ready until Horford was declining.

Not that Monroe is any better, but I'd rather neither.

Your right and your wrong...IMO Okafor already has a strong foundation both physically(very controversial but it is my expert opinion lol), skill and ability, and his familiarity and knowledge of the game.
Your right.....Legit BIG CENTERS like Okafor usually take some time, or after their rookie contract, before they are physically able to apply their skill and knowledge.
Physical Abilities- Naturally muscular and large CENTERS(ESPECIALLY YOUNG ONE'S) ALWAYS need to get better at:
coordination, balance, footwork, movement, conditioning, motor, quickness, agility, defensive slides, explosiveness

What makes Okafor extremely rare is also what creates the illusion that he will struggle in certain areas of his game. His biggest strengths were completely used against him LAST YEAR, literally everything....which is great because it has lowered his value and we can get him.

IMO Okafor was born with physical gifts that when molded will make him a superstar. He has great balance and a low center of gravity. He has the best footwork I've seen from someone his age. His movement is unbelievable and he has very nimble feet....he is like a ballerina!

Judging from last year we all can agree he needs to work on his physical self, and in these areas:
-conditioning
-rotations and slides
- motor
-running the floor
-agility
- stamina

Well, I can tell by watching him but the press is that he has lowered his weight by 15lbs from his playing weight at the end of last season or before he got hurt. He also worked on his conditioning this summer and defensive drills with trainers...but other than 1 or 2 videos I saw, and was impressed with, there is no way to tell yet how much he has progressed in terms of agility/slides/etc.
But he also is now on minute restrictions because he bumped his knee in September during a scrimmage on the same knee he had surgery on.

This is very funny. I would like the know other players that create these kinds of illusions.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Monroe is a net negative on the court who will prevent us from ever being contenders.  I'd rather have Amir

[Moranis]

Something that has hurt Monroe's value is that he never played with the right team. In Detroit, he played under Andre Drummond's shadow and in Milwaukee right now he's playing on a team with hardly any floor spacers. I think there's a strong possibility he would thrive in Boston but I'd only want him to come here if I knew he was going to opt out after this season.

I also want him only if he's the team's last resort as an asset. There are better players the Celtics can get, but Monroe would be the cheapest.

why would you want him to opt out? I mean does Boston really need to sign another wing like Gordon Hayward over a quality big man (you know something sorely lacking on the team).  Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely expect Monroe to opt out, I just have no idea why anyone would actually want him to.

[BitterJim]

Something that has hurt Monroe's value is that he never played with the right team. In Detroit, he played under Andre Drummond's shadow and in Milwaukee right now he's playing on a team with hardly any floor spacers. I think there's a strong possibility he would thrive in Boston but I'd only want him to come here if I knew he was going to opt out after this season.

I also want him only if he's the team's last resort as an asset. There are better players the Celtics can get, but Monroe would be the cheapest.

why would you want him to opt out? I mean does Boston really need to sign another wing like Gordon Hayward over a quality big man (you know something sorely lacking on the team).  Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely expect Monroe to opt out, I just have no idea why anyone would actually want him to.

Him opting in would make it impossible to go after a better big man like Griffin, make trading for a better big man a little tougher (since we couldn't absorb someone like Boogie into our cap space), and probably mean that he did poorly here, and knew he would be unable to get a big contract in free agency

Edit: not to mention that we could use a star scoring wing much more than another journeyman big man

[MJohnnyboy]

Something that has hurt Monroe's value is that he never played with the right team. In Detroit, he played under Andre Drummond's shadow and in Milwaukee right now he's playing on a team with hardly any floor spacers. I think there's a strong possibility he would thrive in Boston but I'd only want him to come here if I knew he was going to opt out after this season.

I also want him only if he's the team's last resort as an asset. There are better players the Celtics can get, but Monroe would be the cheapest.

why would you want him to opt out? I mean does Boston really need to sign another wing like Gordon Hayward over a quality big man (you know something sorely lacking on the team).  Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely expect Monroe to opt out, I just have no idea why anyone would actually want him to.

Simple. I want something better than Monroe on the roster. I'd rather have Blake Griffin or even go after Durant again. Monroe is nice but he isn't elite. I want the cap flexibility for this summer. That doesn't happen if Monroe is on board for next year. That could especially be bad if it turns out he doesn't fit on this roster either.