Author Topic: Rozier over Smart  (Read 12701 times)

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Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2016, 06:08:24 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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He was literally all over the playoffs, that's more than every 15-20 games. Many comeback in the regular season was also thanks to him, including that game winner against Utah.

In small stretches, yes. 

Smart has 5-10 minute stretches in some of those playoff games where he was absolutely huge and was making big plays (on offence or on defence) left, right and centre.

So did Amir Johnson.  So did Jonas Jerebko.  Those guys both stepped up huge in the playoffs. 

You're talking about it as if Smart looked like a superstar in the playoffs last season, he didn't.  He looked like exactly what he is - a really good role player who impacts games for 5-10 minute stretches with his defence and his hustle. 

There were also many times during the playoffs where Smart committed idiotic fouls, took horrible shots, and caused costly turnovers.  Often these plays ALSO came in key moments, and cost us huge. 

But people don't talk about the mistakes Smart made - they only talk about the big time heroic plays he made, in a playoff series that we lost 4-2 against a team that we were capable of beating. 

10X experience? You're acting like Smart already played 10 years in the league before Rozier. They were just drafted a season apart from each other. And Smart is just days older than Rozier when it comes to age so you can't make that as an excuse.

Marcus Smart
Career regular season minutes: 3,475
Career playoff minutes: 283
Total career minutes: 3,758

Terry Rozier
Career regular season minutes: 362
Career playoff minutes: 99
Total career minutes: 461

Sorry, Marcus Smart actually has 8x more NBA experience then Rozier, not 10x. 

My bad.


While you're at it, let me at least see some of Rozier's playmaking. I'm waiting.

I already did. 

His Assist to turnover ratio of 5:1 in the preseason and 7:1 so far in the regular season.  Numbers which are more than 2x and 3x higher (respectively) then Smart's numbers.

What more do you have to see?

Is Terry Rozier:

a) Less of a PG because he's not making flashy, high risk passes that look aesthetically pleasing but have an exponentially higher probably of missing their target and becoming turnovers? 

Or

b) A superior PG because he is making the simple passes that don't look fancy, but reach their intended targets and generate points?

You might answer a to this question.  If so, then perhaps you may find more enjoyment watching the Harlem Globetrotters, rather than the Boston Celtics.   

I'm not judging you for that - some people just like form over function.  It's a personal choice. 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 06:15:11 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2016, 06:15:11 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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He was literally all over the playoffs, that's more than every 15-20 games. Many comeback in the regular season was also thanks to him, including that game winner against Utah.

In small stretches, yes. 

Smart has 5-10 minute stretches in some of those playoff games where he was absolutely huge and was making big plays (on offence or on defence) left, right and centre.

So did Amir Johnson.  So did Jonas Jerebko.  Those guys both stepped up huge in the playoffs. 

You're talking about it as if Smart looked like a superstar in the playoffs last season, he didn't.  He looked like exactly what he is - a really good role player who impacts games for 5-10 minute stretches with his defence and his hustle. 

There were also many times during the playoffs where Smart committed idiotic fouls, took horrible shots, and caused costly turnovers.  Often these plays ALSO came in key moments, and cost us huge. 

But people don't talk about the mistakes Smart made - they only talk about the big time heroic plays he made, in a playoff series that we lost 4-2 against a team that we were capable of beating. 

10X experience? You're acting like Smart already played 10 years in the league before Rozier. They were just drafted a season apart from each other. And Smart is just days older than Rozier when it comes to age so you can't make that as an excuse.

Marcus Smart
Career regular season minutes: 3,475
Career playoff minutes: 283
Total career minutes: 3,758

Terry Rozier
Career regular season minutes: 362
Career playoff minutes: 99
Total career minutes: 461

Sorry, Marcus Smart actually has 8x more NBA experience then Rozier, not 10x. 

My bad.


While you're at it, let me at least see some of Rozier's playmaking. I'm waiting.

I already did. 

His Assist to turnover ratio of 5:1 in the preseason and 7:1 so far in the regular season.  Numbers which are 2x and 3x higher (respectively) then Smart's numbers.

Stats doesn't tell the whole story and preseason stats doesn't really tell anything. He was basically playing against scrubs at that time who will barely play in regular season. Look how his unit got torched by the Nets' second unit in  the opening night that CBS decided to end the game with the starters . Smart is proven against NBA level talents and he won't allow that collapse with him on the court.

Now if Rozier have taken over and carry a single game as a playmaker, my opinion might change. Stats alone won't convince me.

Another Marcus Smart rookie highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_RAePercGA

Don't mind the shooting and look at the passing. I said earlier that Smart have court vision.

Rozier tends to have tunnel vision, missing some open teammates. Scouting videos from DraftExpress doesn't also look favorable for Terry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA0TjgqlqZE
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 06:28:18 AM by mr. dee »

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2016, 06:36:26 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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He was literally all over the playoffs, that's more than every 15-20 games. Many comeback in the regular season was also thanks to him, including that game winner against Utah.

In small stretches, yes. 

Smart has 5-10 minute stretches in some of those playoff games where he was absolutely huge and was making big plays (on offence or on defence) left, right and centre.

So did Amir Johnson.  So did Jonas Jerebko.  Those guys both stepped up huge in the playoffs. 

You're talking about it as if Smart looked like a superstar in the playoffs last season, he didn't.  He looked like exactly what he is - a really good role player who impacts games for 5-10 minute stretches with his defence and his hustle. 

There were also many times during the playoffs where Smart committed idiotic fouls, took horrible shots, and caused costly turnovers.  Often these plays ALSO came in key moments, and cost us huge. 

But people don't talk about the mistakes Smart made - they only talk about the big time heroic plays he made, in a playoff series that we lost 4-2 against a team that we were capable of beating. 

10X experience? You're acting like Smart already played 10 years in the league before Rozier. They were just drafted a season apart from each other. And Smart is just days older than Rozier when it comes to age so you can't make that as an excuse.

Marcus Smart
Career regular season minutes: 3,475
Career playoff minutes: 283
Total career minutes: 3,758

Terry Rozier
Career regular season minutes: 362
Career playoff minutes: 99
Total career minutes: 461

Sorry, Marcus Smart actually has 8x more NBA experience then Rozier, not 10x. 

My bad.


While you're at it, let me at least see some of Rozier's playmaking. I'm waiting.

I already did. 

His Assist to turnover ratio of 5:1 in the preseason and 7:1 so far in the regular season.  Numbers which are 2x and 3x higher (respectively) then Smart's numbers.

Stats doesn't tell the whole story and preseason stats doesn't really tell anything. He was basically playing against scrubs at that time who will barely play in regular season. Look how his unit got torched by the Nets' second unit in  the opening night that CBS decided to end the game with the starters . Smart is proven against NBA level talents and he won't allow that collapse with him on the court.

Now if Rozier have taken over and carry a single game as a playmaker my opinion might change. Stats alone won't convince me.

Something Marcus Smart has practically never done.

In his 128 game NBA career, do you know how many times Marcus Smart has finished a game with more than six assists? 

Seven times.  Seven times out of one hundred and twenty eight games.  That's an average of once in every twenty games.  Four times in an 82 game seasons.

Terry Rozier has played two meaningful regular season games in his entire NBA career.  How can you compare him against Smart on the basis of the number of times he "carries a team as a playmaker" when Smart has does so once every twenty games, and Rozier has only played two meaningful games???

Maybe when we get to the 20 game mark we will find Rozier has shown us a game in which he has "carried a game as a playmaker" and then we will have out proof that he is at least as good as Smart as a playmaker - even by your standards.

Until then, you can care about stats or you can not care about stats, but at the end of the day basketball is won and lost by stats.  The team that has scores the most points in a game is the winner.  That's a stat.   
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 06:46:12 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2016, 06:46:43 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Another Marcus Smart rookie highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_RAePercGA

Don't mind the shooting and look at the passing. I said earlier that Smart have court vision.

Rozier tends to have tunnel vision, missing some open teammates. Scouting videos from DraftExpress doesn't also look favorable for Terry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA0TjgqlqZE

As for DraftExpress videios, what did the scouts say about Marcus Smart at draft time?

Here are some quotes for you from the DraftExpress video on Marcus Smart:

Shot Selection
Efficiency suffers from questionable shot selection.  Jacks up contested jumpers - took 6.5 3s per 40 at 30%.  Forces up tough shots in the paint.  Tunnel vision at times.  Can do a much better job picking his spots offensively.

Settling
Tries to prove he can shoot.  Takes contested 3s early in the clock

Forcing Offense
Doesn't always react to D.  Makes up his mind & forces up tough shots

Turnover Prone
Has improved but still turns it over 3.3 times per 30.  Aggression gets the best of him.  Will play out of control.  Gets lazy with passes. Struggles making the "simple play".  Handle isn't all that tight.  Loses the ball in traffic at times.

Forcing Passes
Tries to make plays that aren't there.  Forces passes too often.

Etcetera
Built a reputation as a "flopper".  Bad body language.  Has a tendency to lose his cool - Texas Tech fan incident reportedly not the 1st time he's put his hands on someone.  Rep as a winner but never advanced from round 68 at OK State

Just in case you want to see for yourself, here's thre link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2xqmw8NHco

I'm not trying to throw dirt on Smart here - as I said I love the kid.  I'm just pointing out that Rozier doesn't deserve all the criticism he's copping from people.  The above are all flaws that Smart, going into his third NBA season, still shows us on a regular basis - yet he still seems to get a pass from most people.  Rozier hasn't even played a single proper/meaningful NBA season and critics are all over him like a bee on a flower.   

The kid is practically a rookie (given his lack of playing time last year) and is already showing huge flashes of potential.  He deserves some respect and deserves to be cut some slack. 


« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 06:54:40 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2016, 07:07:43 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Stats don't show defence. They don't show a full picture on how good someone plays the point guard position.

Rondo was a fantastic PG for us, the stats support that. However under Brad he struggled to impact the game, his stats hardly declined though. Stats mask a lot or they fall short a lot.

Rozier and Smart can both play the game of basketball. Both have strengths and both have weaknesses. One of Smart's weaknesses is his outside shooting. For me, one of Rozier's is his playmaking. He can be a playmaker, he has the potential to be a good PG. However right now he spends too much time thinking about going 1 on 1, dribbling at the top of the key for 8-10 seconds and not effectively involving his teammates. These aren't things that show up on his stat sheet, or maybe any stat sheet. However it does impact the game.

This isn't Rozier's rookie season. Yes he didn't play much last year, there was a log jam but he practiced with those guys, he got reps. Perhaps Smart was lucky to not have as many guys ahead of him but perhaps he was also more ready to step into the role. There was the game against Washington in his rookie year where Rondo sat on the bench for the entire 4th quarter in favour of Smart. In no world could I have imagined Rozier playing ahead of Bradley or IT last year. The reason he is having less of an impact than Smart at the respective points in their careers is because his overall game is not as developed. Simple

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2016, 07:07:51 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Other floppers ...I'd do the same as Smart ....monkey see monkey do

LEQueen ,  Wade,  Melo, Harden , Pierce, on and on.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2016, 07:29:06 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think Marcus Smart brings some swagger and toughness to this team but Rozier is hands down a better shooter.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2016, 09:44:40 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Stats don't show defence. They don't show a full picture on how good someone plays the point guard position.

Rondo was a fantastic PG for us, the stats support that. However under Brad he struggled to impact the game, his stats hardly declined though. Stats mask a lot or they fall short a lot.

Rozier and Smart can both play the game of basketball. Both have strengths and both have weaknesses. One of Smart's weaknesses is his outside shooting. For me, one of Rozier's is his playmaking. He can be a playmaker, he has the potential to be a good PG. However right now he spends too much time thinking about going 1 on 1, dribbling at the top of the key for 8-10 seconds and not effectively involving his teammates. These aren't things that show up on his stat sheet, or maybe any stat sheet. However it does impact the game.


[quote author=TheSundanceKid link=topic=87417.msg2176774#msg2176774
This isn't Rozier's rookie season. Yes he didn't play much last year, there was a log jam but he practiced with those guys, he got reps.

Perhaps Smart was lucky to not have as many guys ahead of him but perhaps he was also more ready to step into the role.

You keep telling yourself that. 

Smart was gifted major minutes by default because he was drafted to a lottery team coming off a 25 win season that had so little guard depth that even Phil-freaking-Pressey had a regular rotation spot.  Smart never had to earn a thing - he was a top #6 pick on a bottom 6 team, and he was going to get substantial minutes no matter how many mistakes he made.

Rozier spent almost his entire first season in the D-League because he was drafted to a playoff team that already had four rotation guards (Thomas, Bradley, Smart, Turner).  The only way for him to get into that rotation would have been to earn it - which he was never given the opportunity to do.  He was never gifted 20+ MPG simply because he showed up.  He was never given the luxury of being able to go out and make as many mistakes as he needed to, knowing that there was nobody else to take challenge him for his minutes.  The only way for him to get a rotation spot was to try and work his butt off in practice so he could earn the respect of his teammates - and based on recent comments he has done exactly that. 

There was the game against Washington in his rookie year where Rondo sat on the bench for the entire 4th quarter in favour of Smart. In no world could I have imagined Rozier playing ahead of Bradley or IT last year.

And yet Marcus Smart was 'gifted' the starting PG position at the beginning of last season...only to lose it to Isaiah Thomas.   

This is despite the fact that Brad/Danny had specifically (and publicly) stated, multiple times, that they did not want to start Thomas - because they wanted to utilise him as a spark plug to lead the second unit. 

Why?

Because with Smart in the starting lineup their offence as so utterly pathetic that the second unit kept having to dig the starters out of double-digit deficits...until it reached the point where Thomas took over the starting PG spot, the Celtics started winning games, and the rest (as they say) became history.



The reason he is having less of an impact than Smart at the respective points in their careers is because his overall game is not as developed. Simple

The reason he is having less of an impact is because he hasn't spent the past two years building chemistry with his teammates, while honing his skills in 25+ MPG, against NBA competition, on a nightly basis.

Yet despite this lack of experience he is still already a better (a) playmaker, (b) ball handler and (c) scorer then Smart is.

But Smart is a better defender!!!

Yes, he is.  Even as a rookie, Smart was a better defender.  I'm not denying that and I never have.  Smart SHOULD be a better defender - it's his bread and butter.  It's his speciality.  It's pretty much the one single talent Smart has that actually keeps him on an NBA roster.   

You really think Smart would be getting rotation minutes on a playoff team if he wasn't such a good defender?  Of course he wouldn't be.  The guy can't shoot.  He can't dribble.  He is an atrocious decision maker.  He's a mediocre playmaker.

You critiise Rozier's play-making skills on the basis that he spends too much time dribbling the ball.  How about the time Smart spends chucking up ill advise threes that end in opponent rebounds, that end in opponent scoring opportunities?  How about the times Smart gives opponents free possessions because of all the offensive fouls he gets called for while he's out there flopping like a WWF wrestler? 

You can say all you want but Rozier has only 1/8th of the NBA experience that Smart has, and yet he is already out there on the court playing the game at (at least) Smart's level.  May be you  Marcus Smart fans feel threatened by that...and so you should.  Rozier's raw talent far exceeds Smart's, and as such he has the potential to become a significantly better player then Smart could ever be...if he makes the most of his opportunities.

Will he do that?  Only time will tell - I'm calling yes.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #98 on: October 28, 2016, 10:07:24 AM »

Offline BlackCeltic

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Rozier is purely a shot creator. He is great at this, but he is a poor floor general as of right now. Every time he comes in for IT the ball movement comes to a halt.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2016, 10:11:34 AM »

Offline TrueFan

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Rozier is purely a shot creator. He is great at this, but he is a poor floor general as of right now. Every time he comes in for IT the ball movement comes to a halt.
Rozier is basically a rookie. Give him some time to settle in. He's still nerved up.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2016, 10:23:15 AM »

Offline clover

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Rozier is purely a shot creator. He is great at this, but he is a poor floor general as of right now. Every time he comes in for IT the ball movement comes to a halt.
Rozier is basically a rookie. Give him some time to settle in. He's still nerved up.

Exactly. The guy's improvement curve has been crazy and PG is the toughest position to master. But they've seen him running the show in practices since last spring and know what they are doing.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2016, 10:23:44 AM »

Offline Bobshot

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I think one of them will have to go in a deal for a big. Maybe Boogie. They are top heavy in the backcourt and soft up front. Danny needs to make a deal to balance things out. Horford isn't enough.

Which one to keep? In my view, whichever one is left after the right deal is made. I'm not fussy. Though Rozier looks like the better offensive player. He has played very well the first two games in a backup role. Looks ready for bigger minutes.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2016, 10:24:30 AM »

Offline clover

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I think Marcus Smart brings some swagger and toughness to this team but Rozier is hands down a better shooter.

I think they are complementary players. Both with high defensive potential, though Smart is closer to reaching his. TR as a pure and scoring PG, Smart as a combo guard with great flexibility and grit leadership.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #103 on: October 28, 2016, 10:25:43 AM »

Offline clover

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I think one of them will have to go in a deal for a big. Maybe Boogie. They are top heavy in the backcourt and soft up front. Danny needs to make a deal to balance things out. Horford isn't enough.

Which one to keep? In my view, whichever one is left after the right deal is made. I'm not fussy. Though Rozier looks like the better offensive player. He has played very well the first two games in a backup role. Looks ready for bigger minutes.

Yeah, I think there is a risk of that.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #104 on: October 28, 2016, 10:50:47 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Whats up with Rozier?

Looks like a million bucks in the pre season but tentative in the past 2 games...

Overdribbling , does not look really sure out there