Author Topic: Rozier over Smart  (Read 12729 times)

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Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2016, 11:59:23 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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On what basis is Rozier better again?

Scoring.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2016, 12:53:05 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Rozier is good.  He's proven that he's an NBA player, but not a PG yet.  Our 2nd unit relied a lot on Turner last year, though, and first unit did too at times.
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Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2016, 01:02:55 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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Rozier is good.  He's proven that he's an NBA player, but not a PG yet.  Our 2nd unit relied a lot on Turner last year, though, and first unit did too at times.

He's a good catch and shoot guy, and can also blow by defenses off the catch. When Smart returns, Terry should go to an off the ball role, and Smart should run the offense.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2016, 01:06:13 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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On what basis is Rozier better again?

Scoring.

Which didn't help much this game.


I don't dislike Rozier but ya'll gotta respect that he will never replace Smart as an impact guy anytime soon.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2016, 01:11:31 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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On what basis is Rozier better again?

Scoring.

Which didn't help much this game.


I don't dislike Rozier but ya'll gotta respect that he will never replace Smart as an impact guy anytime soon.

No, I agree with you. Smart's impact on the game is far more than Rozier's. But we also can't deny the fact that Rozier has a much stronger offensive game than Smart.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2016, 01:21:16 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Rozier is good.  He's proven that he's an NBA player, but not a PG yet.  Our 2nd unit relied a lot on Turner last year, though, and first unit did too at times.

He's a good catch and shoot guy, and can also blow by defenses off the catch. When Smart returns, Terry should go to an off the ball role, and Smart should run the offense.

Like the idea, but not sure they're ready.  Neither have developed the ball-handling ability to be a primary playmaker.  I'd experiment more with running through Smart in the high post and Rozier off down screens, though.   
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Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2016, 01:31:35 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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On what basis is Rozier better again?

Scoring.

Which didn't help much this game.


I don't dislike Rozier but ya'll gotta respect that he will never replace Smart as an impact guy anytime soon.

No, I agree with you. Smart's impact on the game is far more than Rozier's. But we also can't deny the fact that Rozier has a much stronger offensive game than Smart.

If its an offense that impacts more than scoring, I disagree. Smart gets everyone on the  team involve and heavily underrated as a play maker at both ends of the floor. Smart can set screens, putbacks on basket, make plays with above average court vision and passing skills. And all of them were done efficiently by Smart. Running the point is part of offense and Smart is doing it better than Rozier and even IT.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2016, 02:53:36 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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Rozier is good.  He's proven that he's an NBA player, but not a PG yet.  Our 2nd unit relied a lot on Turner last year, though, and first unit did too at times.

He's a good catch and shoot guy, and can also blow by defenses off the catch. When Smart returns, Terry should go to an off the ball role, and Smart should run the offense.

Yeah, that's what many of us have said for awhile, but it's been proven even more than I expected in these first two games.

And the thing is, he hasn't played bad by any means. He's played good for who he is, but it's clear that he's just not a point guard. He just doesn't know how to initiate the offense. But this is okay with his improved shooting, because he can reliably play off the ball now, though he'll need to learn how to better move off the ball.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2016, 02:55:44 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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So far with a very limited sample size, Rozier has remained extremely respectable shooting.  3-7 from three.  It seems to have carried over from his epic Summerleague performance and highly encouraging preseason performance.   I love what we are seeing from Terry.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2016, 04:24:57 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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Scoring was never a concern with Rozier. We know he can shoot it better than Smart. The problem is will he develop PG skills to run the offense? Also his defense could use some improvement. If he can improve it to at least Rondo circa 2008-2010 level, he'll be a real valuable asset for the team.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2016, 05:18:18 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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On what basis is Rozier better again?

Scoring.

Which didn't help much this game.


I don't dislike Rozier but ya'll gotta respect that he will never replace Smart as an impact guy anytime soon.

I would like to remind you all that Rozier has practically zero NBA experience, and this is pretty much his rookie year.  Do you know what numbers Marcus Smart put up in his first two games as a rookie?

Game 1: 10 pts, 2 reb, 2 ast, 4 stl, 0 blk, 0 to, 2 PF, 3-7 FG, 1-4 3PT, 27 minutes
Game 2: 2 pts, 1 reb, 1 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 2 TO, 0 PF, 0-7 FG, 0-5 3PT, 11 minutes

Anyhow, last season Marcus Smart averaged Per 36 numbers of:

12.1 points
5.5 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
0.4 blocks
1.7 turnovers
4 fouls
35% FG
25% 3PT
78% FT
...as a second year pro with 1,808 minutes of experience.

In his first two games this season Terry Rozier has averaged Per 36 numbers of:

9.2 points
4.9 rebounds
4.9 assists
2.8 steals
0.0 blocks
0.7 turnovers
2.1 fouls
42% FG
43% 3PT
80% FT
...as a second year pro with 311 minutes of NBA experience.

Not exactly day and night, is it?

Lets give the kid more then two meaningful NBA games before we start drawing conclusions, shall we?

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2016, 05:27:05 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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On what basis is Rozier better again?

Scoring.

Which didn't help much this game.


I don't dislike Rozier but ya'll gotta respect that he will never replace Smart as an impact guy anytime soon.

I would like to remind you all that Rozier has practically zero NBA experience, and this is pretty much his rookie year.  Do you know what numbers Marcus Smart put up in his first two games as a rookie?

Game 1: 10 pts, 2 reb, 2 ast, 4 stl, 0 blk, 0 to, 2 PF, 3-7 FG, 1-4 3PT, 27 minutes
Game 2: 2 pts, 1 reb, 1 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 2 TO, 0 PF, 0-7 FG, 0-5 3PT, 11 minutes

Anyhow, last season Marcus Smart averaged Per 36 numbers of:

12.1 points
5.5 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
0.4 blocks
1.7 turnovers
4 fouls
35% FG
25% 3PT
78% FT
...as a second year pro with 1,808 minutes of experience.

In his first two games this season Terry Rozier has averaged Per 36 numbers of:

9.2 points
4.9 rebounds
4.9 assists
2.8 steals
0.0 blocks
0.7 turnovers
2.1 fouls
42% FG
43% 3PT
80% FT
...as a second year pro with 311 minutes of NBA experience.

Not exactly day and night, is it?

Lets give the kid more then two meaningful NBA games before we start drawing conclusions, shall we?

Let me also remind you that playmaking and court vision doesn't always show on stat sheet. Smart already have those since his rookie campaign.

This was a play during his rookie season. I don't think Rozier could see Zeller with that pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOlZ6cfimoo

Smart is ahead of Rozier in playing time for a reason. You can't beat Smart on scoring and stat-padding alone.

Since you love to put stats as an argument, then i'll use the +- category. Smart was +3.1 last season on court and Rozier was -6.1 last season.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 05:35:02 AM by mr. dee »

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2016, 05:32:50 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Scoring was never a concern with Rozier. We know he can shoot it better than Smart. The problem is will he develop PG skills to run the offense? Also his defense could use some improvement. If he can improve it to at least Rondo circa 2008-2010 level, he'll be a real valuable asset for the team.

I'm struggling to see why people keep criticising Rozier's PG play.

Seriously. 

Preseason PG starts for Smart:

5.04 Assists Per 36
2.52 Turnovers Per 36
2.0 Assists Per Turnover

Preseason PG starts for Rozier:

4.81 Assists Per 36
1.26 Turnovers Per 36
3.8 Assists Per Turnover

Regular Season PG stats for Smart in his second year:

4 Assists Per 36
1.7 Tuirnovers Per 36
2.3 Assists Per Turnover

Regular Season PG stats for Rozier so far:

4.9 Assists Per 36
0.7 Turnovers Per 36
7 Assists Per Turnover

In the preseason this year Terry Rozier played the PG spot better then Smart did, by a pretty wide margin. 

In the regular season right now Terry Rozier is playing the PG spot at least twice as good as Marcus Smart has ever done in his entire basketball life.

You guys need to calm the hell down with the "Smart is an untouchable entity sent from the gods" garbage. 

I love Marcus Smart as a defender, as a competitor and as a leader.  As a pure PG he's barely one step up from the bottom of the NBA barrel, and as a shooter he is so bad that it's downright embarrassing.




Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2016, 05:39:37 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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On what basis is Rozier better again?

Scoring.

Which didn't help much this game.


I don't dislike Rozier but ya'll gotta respect that he will never replace Smart as an impact guy anytime soon.

I would like to remind you all that Rozier has practically zero NBA experience, and this is pretty much his rookie year.  Do you know what numbers Marcus Smart put up in his first two games as a rookie?

Game 1: 10 pts, 2 reb, 2 ast, 4 stl, 0 blk, 0 to, 2 PF, 3-7 FG, 1-4 3PT, 27 minutes
Game 2: 2 pts, 1 reb, 1 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 2 TO, 0 PF, 0-7 FG, 0-5 3PT, 11 minutes

Anyhow, last season Marcus Smart averaged Per 36 numbers of:

12.1 points
5.5 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
0.4 blocks
1.7 turnovers
4 fouls
35% FG
25% 3PT
78% FT
...as a second year pro with 1,808 minutes of experience.

In his first two games this season Terry Rozier has averaged Per 36 numbers of:

9.2 points
4.9 rebounds
4.9 assists
2.8 steals
0.0 blocks
0.7 turnovers
2.1 fouls
42% FG
43% 3PT
80% FT
...as a second year pro with 311 minutes of NBA experience.

Not exactly day and night, is it?

Lets give the kid more then two meaningful NBA games before we start drawing conclusions, shall we?

Let me also remind you that playmaking and court vision doesn't always show on stat sheet. Smart already have those since his rookie campaign.

This was a play during his rookie season. I don't think Rozier could see Zeller with that pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOlZ6cfimoo

Smart is ahead of Rozier in playing time for a reason. You can't beat Smart on scoring and stat-padding alone.

Smart has played starters minutes in the NBA for 2 seasons now (including the playoffs) and you'd be lucky to find 10 passes he's made over that time which are worthy of putting in a youtube video. 

The guy makes one impressive pass every 15-20 games if you're lucky.  The rest of the time he looks like a 6'3" Ron Artest trying to play the point.

Is there a reason Smart is above Rozier in playing time?  Of course there is - it's because he has approximately 10x the NBA experience Rozier has.  Not difficult to work that one out.

Also please, for the love of god, tell me you are not quoting Rozier's +/- stats from a year in which he played a grand total of 311 regular season minutes, all in garbage time.  Because trying to use that as an argument would be embarrassingly poor form. 

A player's PG skills can be so very easily measured using two very simple statistics - assists and turnovers.  An assist guarantees 2 or 3 points for your team.  A turnover guarantees an extra possession for your opponent, which in turn means an opportunity for your opponent to score anywhere from 1-4 points.  An assist is ALWAYS beneficial.  A turnover is ALWAYS a liability.

There so far in this preseason and regular season combined, Terry Rozier has averaged less then a turnover per game.  That means that:

1) He's generating turnovers as a result of ball handling errors
2) He's generating turnovers as a result of bad passes

In the preseason and regular season so far, Rozier has been tallying assists at a similar rate to what Smart has over his first two seasons. 

What does all this tell you?

It tells you that Rozier is making just as many plays for his teammates as Smart does, but he's making less errors in the way of ball handling mistakes and bad passes.

What is the main role of a PG?  Handling the ball and making good passes.

You can show all the passing videos of Marcus Smart you like.  For all I care you can show me a 3 hours long video of Marcus Smart making no-look passes using pure telepathy.  I don't care, because the only thing about those passes that actually matter are:

1) How many of them lead to points scored
2) How many of them lead to turnovers

The answer to those questions tell me that right now, Terry Rozier is looking like a better PG then Marcus Smart - all the YouTube videos in the world cannot change the simple, hard facts. 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 05:53:23 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2016, 05:45:51 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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On what basis is Rozier better again?

Scoring.

Which didn't help much this game.


I don't dislike Rozier but ya'll gotta respect that he will never replace Smart as an impact guy anytime soon.

I would like to remind you all that Rozier has practically zero NBA experience, and this is pretty much his rookie year.  Do you know what numbers Marcus Smart put up in his first two games as a rookie?

Game 1: 10 pts, 2 reb, 2 ast, 4 stl, 0 blk, 0 to, 2 PF, 3-7 FG, 1-4 3PT, 27 minutes
Game 2: 2 pts, 1 reb, 1 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 2 TO, 0 PF, 0-7 FG, 0-5 3PT, 11 minutes

Anyhow, last season Marcus Smart averaged Per 36 numbers of:

12.1 points
5.5 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
0.4 blocks
1.7 turnovers
4 fouls
35% FG
25% 3PT
78% FT
...as a second year pro with 1,808 minutes of experience.

In his first two games this season Terry Rozier has averaged Per 36 numbers of:

9.2 points
4.9 rebounds
4.9 assists
2.8 steals
0.0 blocks
0.7 turnovers
2.1 fouls
42% FG
43% 3PT
80% FT
...as a second year pro with 311 minutes of NBA experience.

Not exactly day and night, is it?

Lets give the kid more then two meaningful NBA games before we start drawing conclusions, shall we?

Let me also remind you that playmaking and court vision doesn't always show on stat sheet. Smart already have those since his rookie campaign.

This was a play during his rookie season. I don't think Rozier could see Zeller with that pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOlZ6cfimoo

Smart is ahead of Rozier in playing time for a reason. You can't beat Smart on scoring and stat-padding alone.

Smart has played starters minutes in the NBA for 2 seasons now (including the playoffs) and you'd be lucky to find 10 passes he's made over that time which are worthy of putting in a youtube video. 

The guy makes one impressive pass every 15-20 games if you're lucky.  The rest of the time he looks like a 6'3" Ron Artest trying to play the point.

Is there a reason Smart is above Rozier in playing time?  Of course there is - it's because he has approximately 10x the NBA experience Rozier has.  Not difficult to work that one out.

He was literally all over the playoffs, that's more than every 15-20 games. Many comeback in the regular season was also thanks to him, including that game winner against Utah.

10X experience? You're acting like Smart already played 10 years in the league before Rozier. They were just drafted a season apart from each other. And Smart is just days older than Rozier when it comes to age so you can't make that as an excuse.

While you're at it, let me at least see some of Rozier's playmaking. I'm waiting.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 05:52:09 AM by mr. dee »