Author Topic: Rozier over Smart  (Read 12700 times)

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Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2016, 10:44:58 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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If we continue to win, your guys points make no sense. I will concede the same if we lose.

Man that's some foolproof logic.
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Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2016, 11:02:28 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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If we continue to win, your guys points make no sense. I will concede the same if we lose.

Man that's some foolproof logic.

How important can he be if we win without him? How important can his defense be? You can be sarcastic all you want. It's obvious you're just butthurt because I don't agree with you. I like to actually look at both sides of the court and not ignore the fact that we basically blew Brooklyn out and then stopped playing hard.

Also you should look at points per possession on last nights game.

Stop being buthurt and add to the conversation. You sound like a grumpy old man.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2016, 11:11:04 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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So, did people see how much we missed Smart defensively and at the end of the game tonight?

Rozier didn't play bad by any means, but he played pretty much how I thought he would with the big boys - how a 2nd year, 16th pick should. 27 minutes, 5 pts, 2-5 fg, 3 rebs, 3 asts, 2 stls, 1 TOV and a +2 overall. A decent overall game for him, but he just doesn't impact the game the way Smart does. His defense is still lightyears away from Smart's, and he still needs to learn how to play off the ball better.

We'll just see how the Celtics play without Smart these next few games. It should basically determine this debate. If we continue to win, your guys points make no sense. I will concede the same if we lose.

LOL that is not quite how it works.



Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2016, 11:25:16 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I think it's possible, but I'll hold my tongue until I see Rozier's improved play go up against real NBA competition. Pre-season and summer league indicate absolutely nothing.

I just love the fact that we have both of them.

Yeah, Smart looked just as good in the 2015 Summer League (before he got hurt) as Rozier did in this summer league.  A lot of people expected a big jump out of Smart after that (and some expected him to overtake Turner), but summer league and the regular season aren't the same.  You have to take summer league and preseason with a pinch (or entire shaker) of salt
further, you'll see similar trends with KO, too

I disagree.

Smart did look good in the summer league that year, but it was more mental - just being less timid and more aggressive on offense, taking it to the basket more, etc.

He didn't really look any more SKILLED - it's not like he was hitting jumpers left right and center, posting up at will, crossing guys over, etc.  His skill set looked the same mostly, he just looked like he played harder with more confidence.

The thing that impresses me about Rozier is his skill level.  He can pretty much do everything out there at (at least) a competent level.  He can dribble, he can pass, he can rebound, he can defend, he can shoot on spot ups, he can shoot off the dribble, he can drive to the basket, he can get to the line, he can hit floaters, he can score in transition.

Sure he has to improve a lot on many of those areas, but that's expected for a player with his age and experience level.  The important thing is that all of those foundations are there - as long as the foundation is there, you have something to build off.

The part that limits Smart's potential, in my eyes, is that he doesn't really have the foundation there in a lot of those areas.  His jumper is terrible, his ball handling is very limited, he struggles to get by people because of his lack of foot speed.  He's still got a strong foundation in a lot of other areas, but those two or three weaknesses (shooting, ball handling, quickness) are critical attributes for an NBA guard.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2016, 11:25:56 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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So, did people see how much we missed Smart defensively and at the end of the game tonight?

Rozier didn't play bad by any means, but he played pretty much how I thought he would with the big boys - how a 2nd year, 16th pick should. 27 minutes, 5 pts, 2-5 fg, 3 rebs, 3 asts, 2 stls, 1 TOV and a +2 overall. A decent overall game for him, but he just doesn't impact the game the way Smart does. His defense is still lightyears away from Smart's, and he still needs to learn how to play off the ball better.

We'll just see how the Celtics play without Smart these next few games. It should basically determine this debate. If we continue to win, your guys points make no sense. I will concede the same if we lose.

 ::)

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2016, 11:29:08 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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So, did people see how much we missed Smart defensively and at the end of the game tonight?

Rozier didn't play bad by any means, but he played pretty much how I thought he would with the big boys - how a 2nd year, 16th pick should. 27 minutes, 5 pts, 2-5 fg, 3 rebs, 3 asts, 2 stls, 1 TOV and a +2 overall. A decent overall game for him, but he just doesn't impact the game the way Smart does. His defense is still lightyears away from Smart's, and he still needs to learn how to play off the ball better.

We'll just see how the Celtics play without Smart these next few games. It should basically determine this debate. If we continue to win, your guys points make no sense. I will concede the same if we lose.

Yeah, that's not how it works. We won tonight because we played the worst team in the league, but Smart's defense and game was *clearly* missed throughout the game.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2016, 11:43:35 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Well I guess I'm the laughing stock of the blog. We'll see what Smart and Rozier turn into. Last time I will speak on the topic.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2016, 11:45:12 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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So, did people see how much we missed Smart defensively and at the end of the game tonight?

Rozier didn't play bad by any means, but he played pretty much how I thought he would with the big boys - how a 2nd year, 16th pick should. 27 minutes, 5 pts, 2-5 fg, 3 rebs, 3 asts, 2 stls, 1 TOV and a +2 overall. A decent overall game for him, but he just doesn't impact the game the way Smart does. His defense is still lightyears away from Smart's, and he still needs to learn how to play off the ball better.

Aside from the handful of minutes he got over 6 playoff games last year, these were basically the first 27 minutes of meaningful NBA minutes that Rozier has played in his career.

As I've said several times over the past month or two - with Rozier's lack of playing time last year, you pretty much need to treat this as if it's a rookie year for him.  What I mean by that he's going to have his ups and downs, particularly through he first half of the season, as he sheds off his training wheels. 

* It's going to take him time to get a handle on how opposing teams/players play
* It's going to take him time to learn what he can/can't get away with from officials
* It's going to take him time to learn plays/sets (practice is not the same as real games)
* It's going to take him time to build chemistry with the other guys in the second unit
* It's going to take time for him to get past the intimidation of playing with two All-Stars (Thomas/Horford) and an All Defensive teamer (Bradley) so he can gain the confidence to be selfish and take shots

I invite others here to reminisce back to the first half of Jarred Sullinger's, Kelly Olynyk's and Marcus Smart's rookie years.  Every one of those guys flashes signs of potential/skill, but mostly looked completely clueless on the court up until around the All-Star break - after which something changed and all three of those guys started to look like talented NBA players.

It's not likely going to be any different for Rozier.  He's going to have moment where he's going to look like a stud, and he's going to have moments where he's going to look like D-League fodder.  Most of the time he'll hover somewhere in the middle. 

Once he's got about half a season under his belt and he start to get into a rhythm, then he's going to show us what he's capable of on a more consistent basis, and by the end of the regular season I predict that he's going to putting a LOT of pressure on Green and Smart for those backup guard minutes.

But...it's not going to happen overnight.  If it does, then he's even better then I thought.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2016, 12:16:33 AM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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Quote

I invite others here to reminisce back to the first half of Jarred Sullinger's, Kelly Olynyk's and Marcus Smart's rookie years.  Every one of those guys flashes signs of potential/skill, but mostly looked completely clueless on the court up until around the All-Star break - after which something changed and all three of those guys started to look like talented NBA players.


But...it's not going to happen overnight.  If it does, then he's even better then I thought.

Crimson Jared sat out the second half of his rookie season because he needed have to surgery on his back. He didn't make it past January.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2016, 08:31:03 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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It's laughable to me that some have even said Rozier played bad. I've seen Smart consistently play much worse and not receive that same negativity.



With every post you make it is clear you do not watch or consider defense.

Yeah I'm not blind to one side. I like two way players. He's Tony Allen. And he doesn't create as much offense as you make it out to be. Either way, don't understand why you're ripping Rozier. He has nothing to do with Smart.

This T. Allen comparison is just beyond dumb now. Since when did Allen run the PnR effectively? Since when did he run any kind of offense? Smart has proven he can run the offense for us consistently. Just as you are criticising people of ripping Rozier, you are doing the same for Smart.

Now I haven't watched the game last night but I don't think I need to do so to tell you where Rozier is at the moment. He's on the cusp of major rotation minutes, he's made a big leap from his rookie year and he still needs to slow things down to become an effective player.

Rozier does not equal Smart, on this we agree. They are two very different players. To me Smart will end up the backup to IT and Rozier will be the combo guard. Rozier in my eyes is better utilised off the ball, he hasn't yet developed the ball movement and sight necessary to run the offense, hopefully he will in time.

Also its important to remember that on CB everyone has an opinion. You're right that Smart has sucked on offense and people have defended him vociferously but equally there are many who rip him apart no matter what he does. It seems to be the nature of the board atm. But don't listen to one side and not the other, a lot of times we are defending Smart because of the vitriol against him, much like you are doing here with Rozier

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2016, 09:06:20 AM »

Offline The Oracle

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Well I guess I'm the laughing stock of the blog. We'll see what Smart and Rozier turn into. Last time I will speak on the topic.
As to your question earlier, in regular season games over Smart's career the C's are 71-57 in games he played and 18-19 without him including beating the Nets last night.

Rozier has a ton of potential, his shooting is clearly on a level ready to contribute offensively but every other aspect of his game offensively isn't quite there yet and his defense leaves a lot to be desired.  Smart is Not the worst offensive player ever as people continue to state.  His SHOOTING has been atrocious but every other aspect of his offensive game is fine and when that is paired with his otherworldly defensive abilities makes an extremely positive impact on the floor.

I am a huge fan of what Rozier can become but anointing him at this point as an equal or better player than Smart is ridiculous.  In no way at this point can Rozier flip games on there head like Smart can.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2016, 09:15:25 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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If we continue to win, your guys points make no sense. I will concede the same if we lose.

Man that's some foolproof logic.

How important can he be if we win without him? How important can his defense be? You can be sarcastic all you want. It's obvious you're just butthurt because I don't agree with you. I like to actually look at both sides of the court and not ignore the fact that we basically blew Brooklyn out and then stopped playing hard.

Also you should look at points per possession on last nights game.

Stop being buthurt and add to the conversation. You sound like a grumpy old man.

The thing is, the argument that he can't be that important if we win without him isn't at all relevant when he's the 5th or 6th best player on the team (it's not a very good argument when the player is, either, but that's beside the point).  Nobody's saying that he's essential to us wining (like IT or Horford would be), but he would have been a huge help last night.

You can't deny that, when it mattered last night, the bench played like ****.  Rozier was totally unable to deal with the two man full court press (as you would expect from a young guard), and the lack of a second good ball handler (sorry Jayen) left us unable to get into our offense.  Having Smart there would have been huge, and likely have prevented/mitigated the utter collapse in the 4th quarter

Also, calling people "butthurt" does nothing to add to the conversation, it just makes you look bad
I'm bitter.

Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2016, 09:39:01 AM »

Offline feckless

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"This T. Allen comparison is just beyond dumb now. Since when did Allen run the PnR effectively? Since when did he run any kind of offense? Smart has proven he can run the offense for us consistently. Just as you are criticising people of ripping Rozier, you are doing the same for Smart."  from Sundance Kid

This is wrong--there is no evidence that Smart can run the PnR, for one thing he can't consistently shoot the J--and Brad has not allowed Smart to run the offense only for brief periods.  Marcus's shot selection remains dubious.

That is why Rozier - (last year, at the end of the year), when they needed a PG, Brad gave the ball to Terry and that is whey this summer and in pre-season, Marcus has been given very little time running the offense. Rozier has always been the primary PG, run the offense, when both players are in the game.  I am not sure who will emerge --but from Brad's choice as to who plays the back up point--it has all been Rozier.

Additionally- on Marcus's high level defense--all should remember that Avery gets the toughest defensive assignments not Marcus.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 10:02:50 AM by feckless »
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Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2016, 09:59:03 AM »

Offline tankcity!

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I'm not going to reply to anyone who has replied to my post. I'm done talking about it. No point in dragging this out because I'm not trying to troll people. I genuinely feel Rozier will prove to be better by end of the year. We will see who is better. Jpotter has smart averaging 14 plus 45% shooting from the field. Let's see if he can do it.


Re: Rozier over Smart
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2016, 10:22:28 AM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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Rozier didn't do so good last night.. the shot is there but he's still rushing things, I think there's even a fast break where he had numbers but tossed up a pathetic layup attempt.