Poll

Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?

Yes, many are underrating the Celtics
15 (22.1%)
No, we are overrating the Celtics
16 (23.5%)
No, we are being pegged about right
37 (54.4%)

Total Members Voted: 68

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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2016, 01:21:39 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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We have Marcus Smart - an outstanding defender and hustle guy who seems to have improved his offensive game quite substantially.



great post crimson, TP.

but i wanted to ask you this: i thought you weren't impressed with Smart's offensive game?
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2016, 01:26:14 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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We have Marcus Smart - an outstanding defender and hustle guy who seems to have improved his offensive game quite substantially.



great post crimson, TP.

but i wanted to ask you this: i thought you weren't impressed with Smart's offensive game?

crim has been officially called out.  :o  lot.of.action.

To be fair, Smart has sucked there.  But in preseason he showed that he can get to the basket from mid-range if given an iso and ~10 seconds. Don't see how that works into the offense, but I guess that's something?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 01:33:54 AM by tarheelsxxiii »
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2016, 01:36:13 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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People will likely disagree with me, but I think people are underrating the Celtics.  I think the Celtics are the second best team in the East this year.

We spent most of the second half of last season as the #3 seed in the East until we started running into some untimely injuries (KO, Crowder, etc) which saw us slip a little, but still finished the season in a four-way tie for the #4 seed.

This year we have added Al Hoford.  I must admit that I underestimated this acquisition initially, but watching him play with that first unit - his presence is a legitimate game changer.  Boston's entire style of play changes with Horford on the court in place of Sully.  On offense the ball is constantly moving, we finally have a big who can score efficiently and who demands attention from the D, no matter where he is on the court.   On defense we have a bit who can move his feet well enough to defend the P&R and cover multiple positions, and we have a guy who can protect the paint.  For the first time since Kevin Garnett, we have a legit starting caliber (and All-Star caliber) big man.  That change is going to impact the win column more then people realize, I think.

When you have Horford/Johnson/Crowder/Bradley all on the court at the same time, you have a legitimate chance at having the best defense in the NBA. 

Yet when you have Thomas/Bradley/Crowder/Horford on the court all at the same time, you have a legitimate shot at being one of the best offensive teams in the NBA.

For this reason, I predict that our starting 5 is likely going to be one of the most dominant +/- lineups in the league this year.

Then the bench.

We have Marcus Smart - an outstanding defender and hustle guy who seems to have improved his offensive game quite substantially.

We have Terry Rozier - a guy who has come out of nowhere and shown that he can really put the ball in the bucket.  If he plays as well as I anticipate he's capable of, he might be a potential 6MOTY candidate (the award tends to favor scorers).

We have Gerald Green - a guy who provides shooting, scoring and athleticism - some of the things we desperately lacked last year off our bench.

We have Jaylen Brown - a guy who I initially didn't expect to see much off, but that's changed after the way he played in the preseason.  This kid has serious talent, and he's got the ability to impact the game on both ends of the court.

We have Jonas Jerebko - a solid energy guy who can defend multiple positions and is a knock down shooter.

We have Kelly Olynyk - a hugely underrated defensive player, a skilled playmaker and one of the best shooting 7 footers in the game.

Last year we had a bench that couldn't shoot.  This year if we need scoring we can put a second unit of Rozier, Green, Brown, Jerebko and Olynyk on the court and every one of those guys can hit the three. 

Same with the starters - Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Johnson and Horford are all capable of making the defense pay defense pay if left open from three.

This roster may not be filled with celebrity names, but we have pretty much everything you could want from a team - we have elite defenders, we have quality scorers, we have a plethora of outside shooters, we have athleticism, we have depth, we have chemistry, we have hustle, we have heart, and we have one of the best young coaches in the game. 

This team is going to be very, very difficult to beat.  I have to put Cleveland and Golden State above us.  Probably San Antonio too.  Beyond that, I can't think of a single other team in the league that stands out as being a cut above the Celtics.

The Bulls won't touch us.  The Pacers and Raptors will probably make it tough on us, but I believe we're better then both.  The Bulls won't touch us. 

I'm predicting we finish #2 in the East behind the Cavs - and I think we'll give the Cavs a REALLY tough run every time we play them, too.  With guys like Smart, Crowder, Brown and Jerebko on the roster there are few teams who can throw as many capable defenders at Lebron as we can.  Thomas is a match for Kyrie in every way.  Horford is practically built to compete with Kevin Love.  Our depth far exceeds theirs. 

Not saying we'll be Cavs-killers, but there will be few teams who can give them a tougher time then us.

TP. I share your optimism. I think people are really underrating us this year.

I actually think we're just as good, if not better, than San Antonio, too, which isn't all that surprising as it sounds. Last year, both games against San Antonio were very close, and iirc, it was an Aldridge explosion at the end of each game last year that ultimately did us in. We just didn't have the big defender to stop him, forcing us to rely on Sully's defense ( :o). Horford is about as ideal of a defender for LMA as there is, which makes a huge difference. Further, replacing Duncan with Gasol is going to dramatically decrease their defensive efficiency, and I'm betting we take the game in Boston against San Antonio this year.

LAC is a bit more difficult to predict. But just like San Antonio, we're finally going to have a defensive answer for Blake, which should be excellent to watch Horford guard Blake. I don't think that I've ever seen Horford guard him in Atlanta, because he primarily guarded the 5's there.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2016, 06:06:00 AM »

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3rd best team in the league behind Cleveland and GSW.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2016, 09:00:31 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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3rd best team in the league behind Cleveland and GSW.

That's bold. Celts are still a tier below a healthy Clips or Spurs team of you ask me.

Paul / Griffin and LMA / Kawhi are just too much.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2016, 09:52:22 AM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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I've maintained this, and I urge you all to not overlook the fact. Because if we falter,  I want you all to know why. That is that for the C's to even sniff on these lofty expectations, barring any injuries, Marcus Smart HAS to become even just 70% the player we thought he was going to be coming out of college. Evan Turner is gone now and we didn't rely on him for putbacks and box outs.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2016, 09:53:52 AM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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Dbl post. My apologies.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2016, 11:37:32 AM »

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3rd best team in the league behind Cleveland and GSW.

That's bold. Celts are still a tier below a healthy Clips or Spurs team of you ask me.

Paul / Griffin and LMA / Kawhi are just too much.

I am not impressed by the Clippers supporting cast. I think their role players (bad fitting role players) hold their stars back and stop them from being a genuine title threat.

I think the Spurs will flatter to deceive this season. Some big runs in the regular season but they'll come up short in the postseason. Tim Duncan is a huge loss. His influence is being so underrated. Pau Gasol's inability to move his feet on defense will screw them in the postseason. They'll get by fine in the regular season but they will come up short in the playoffs against stronger teams.

Celtics more of a scrappy team with a good team offense. Horford (like Duncan) will have a big influence on both of ends of the court and on his teammates. I'd take my chances on this type of team rather than either of those badly balanced squads.

NBA is weak outside of CLE and GSW. The other contenders (OKC, SAS) have all fallen away. It is a much more even landscape now. And I'll put my bet on this Boston with it's scrappy defense and team offense over the rest of trailing pack.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2016, 11:46:40 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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What is most amazing to me is the number of Celtics fans who are apparently still sleeping on Al Horford, on top of those who clearly significantly overrate the difficulty of replacing Evan Turner.

Agreed on Horford for sure.

As far as Turner, I think there is this strange thought that the "Turner comes off the bench and dominates the ball" strategy is the only way it can work.  There are other ways to run an offense and strategies you can have with a rotation.  It was the right one last year but there is this obsession with finding someone who will dominate the ball like Turner did... hopefully no one really does.  I enjoyed Turner last year and he was valuable but I think that strategy clearly didn't hold up in the Playoffs and it's not a really winning one.

Personally I am much more optimistic about Smart in his third year (again, underrated in this board how much growth he is showing as a PG just because everyone only looks at his 3 pt shooting) and Rozier, plus the way Horford keeps the ball moving adds a ton to the ball movement for the team.  Horford and Olynyk should be ridiculous together, but even if you stagger them more, that means there is always that kind of spacing and ball movement.  Add in that Avery and Crowder are showing more off the dribble and that means a more balanced and dangerous team.

So far the ball movement and attacking off of it looks like another level from last year.  I'll take that over the Turner formula from last year for sure.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2016, 11:50:14 AM »

Offline Moranis

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What is most amazing to me is the number of Celtics fans who are apparently still sleeping on Al Horford, on top of those who clearly significantly overrate the difficulty of replacing Evan Turner.

Agreed on Horford for sure.

As far as Turner, I think there is this strange thought that the "Turner comes off the bench and dominates the ball" strategy is the only way it can work.  There are other ways to run an offense and strategies you can have with a rotation.  It was the right one last year but there is this obsession with finding someone who will dominate the ball like Turner did... hopefully no one really does.  I enjoyed Turner last year and he was valuable but I think that strategy clearly didn't hold up in the Playoffs and it's not a really winning one.
It isn't an obsession it is based on the reality that when Thomas and/or Turner weren't on the floor last year, Boston's offense was terrible.  This is borne out in reality.  Now maybe the other guys were used to playing with that sort of ball dominant player, or maybe they are really just bad at generating offense.  If that is the case, then Boston should absolutely be concerned.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2016, 11:53:27 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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What is most amazing to me is the number of Celtics fans who are apparently still sleeping on Al Horford, on top of those who clearly significantly overrate the difficulty of replacing Evan Turner.

Agreed on Horford for sure.

As far as Turner, I think there is this strange thought that the "Turner comes off the bench and dominates the ball" strategy is the only way it can work.  There are other ways to run an offense and strategies you can have with a rotation.  It was the right one last year but there is this obsession with finding someone who will dominate the ball like Turner did... hopefully no one really does.  I enjoyed Turner last year and he was valuable but I think that strategy clearly didn't hold up in the Playoffs and it's not a really winning one.
It isn't an obsession it is based on the reality that when Thomas and/or Turner weren't on the floor last year, Boston's offense was terrible.  This is borne out in reality.  Now maybe the other guys were used to playing with that sort of ball dominant player, or maybe they are really just bad at generating offense.  If that is the case, then Boston should absolutely be concerned.

Yeah, for last year.  Again, we have multiple guys who are going to take a jump (Smart, AB, Crowder, Rozier have all showed playmaking they didn't have last year) and you're overlooking we added an All Star to the front court who does everything on offense including being one of the best big men passers in the league.

The season hasn't started yet but just watch.  The team looks a lot more balanced.  And don't undersell we added an All Star.  Horford is now the best player on the team.  Not something to just gloss over with your post.  Not only his ability, but he makes the other players all better.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2016, 01:37:14 PM »

Offline Moranis

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What is most amazing to me is the number of Celtics fans who are apparently still sleeping on Al Horford, on top of those who clearly significantly overrate the difficulty of replacing Evan Turner.

Agreed on Horford for sure.

As far as Turner, I think there is this strange thought that the "Turner comes off the bench and dominates the ball" strategy is the only way it can work.  There are other ways to run an offense and strategies you can have with a rotation.  It was the right one last year but there is this obsession with finding someone who will dominate the ball like Turner did... hopefully no one really does.  I enjoyed Turner last year and he was valuable but I think that strategy clearly didn't hold up in the Playoffs and it's not a really winning one.
It isn't an obsession it is based on the reality that when Thomas and/or Turner weren't on the floor last year, Boston's offense was terrible.  This is borne out in reality.  Now maybe the other guys were used to playing with that sort of ball dominant player, or maybe they are really just bad at generating offense.  If that is the case, then Boston should absolutely be concerned.

Yeah, for last year.  Again, we have multiple guys who are going to take a jump (Smart, AB, Crowder, Rozier have all showed playmaking they didn't have last year) and you're overlooking we added an All Star to the front court who does everything on offense including being one of the best big men passers in the league.

The season hasn't started yet but just watch.  The team looks a lot more balanced.  And don't undersell we added an All Star.  Horford is now the best player on the team.  Not something to just gloss over with your post.  Not only his ability, but he makes the other players all better.
Horford isn't an offense generator though and will spend much of his time on court with Thomas anyway.

Bradley and Crowder are who are they are and that isn't offense generators.  Smart should be better, but his offensive game is not one of offense generation either.  Rozier, who knows, just so young.  Maybe he slides into the Turner role, or maybe he doesn't, but relying on Rozier to fill that role strikes me as a recipe for disaster.

I'm certainly not suggesting Boston should have re-signed Turner at the price he signed for, but Boston didn't even attempt to replace him either, which I do have a problem with.  He was a very valuable player on the bench that wasn't replaced and I think his absence is being greatly undersold by a wide splotch of people on this board.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2016, 01:54:29 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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3rd best team in the league behind Cleveland and GSW.

That's bold. Celts are still a tier below a healthy Clips or Spurs team of you ask me.

Paul / Griffin and LMA / Kawhi are just too much.

I am not impressed by the Clippers supporting cast. I think their role players (bad fitting role players) hold their stars back and stop them from being a genuine title threat.

I think the Spurs will flatter to deceive this season. Some big runs in the regular season but they'll come up short in the postseason. Tim Duncan is a huge loss. His influence is being so underrated. Pau Gasol's inability to move his feet on defense will screw them in the postseason. They'll get by fine in the regular season but they will come up short in the playoffs against stronger teams.

Celtics more of a scrappy team with a good team offense. Horford (like Duncan) will have a big influence on both of ends of the court and on his teammates. I'd take my chances on this type of team rather than either of those badly balanced squads.

NBA is weak outside of CLE and GSW. The other contenders (OKC, SAS) have all fallen away. It is a much more even landscape now. And I'll put my bet on this Boston with it's scrappy defense and team offense over the rest of trailing pack.


I agree with you about the Clips' supporting cast.  At the same time, I just think their ceiling is so much higher when they are healthy because of their excellent top 4.


As for the Spurs, I see the cracks, too, and I agree that Duncan's absence is being underrated.

With that said, they still have the best coach in the league, the best perimeter defender in the league, and two excellent scoring big men with the size and skill to punish all but the best opponents.

I don't think any of those teams has a hope of competing with the cream of the league (i.e. GSW and CLE).  I do think the Clips and Spurs are a cut above the Celts, though, as excited as I am about the addition of Horford.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2016, 01:55:59 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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Horford isn't an offense generator though and will spend much of his time on court with Thomas anyway.

Bradley and Crowder are who are they are and that isn't offense generators.  Smart should be better, but his offensive game is not one of offense generation either.  Rozier, who knows, just so young.  Maybe he slides into the Turner role, or maybe he doesn't, but relying on Rozier to fill that role strikes me as a recipe for disaster.

I'm certainly not suggesting Boston should have re-signed Turner at the price he signed for, but Boston didn't even attempt to replace him either, which I do have a problem with.  He was a very valuable player on the bench that wasn't replaced and I think his absence is being greatly undersold by a wide splotch of people on this board.

First off you don't know what rotations will be like.  Thinking Horford will not see time with Smart or Rozier is off base.  This isn't hockey with shifts.

And a big can actually generate offense.  With passing and with being one of the best pick and roll men in the league.  How would playing with a vastly better big man not help a guard generate offense in a pick and roll?  I read the other day that Avery Bradley said he talked to Teague about Horford and the first thing he said was that Horford would make the game much easier for him and he said that's already been the case out on the floor.  If you are a big that demands double teams, can attack off the dribble, can shoot threes and so constantly require the big to be guarding you vs helping towards another guy trying to cut into the lane or drive the lane, how are you not creating and helping offense?  Offense is more complicated than just "guy handles the ball and passes".  This is just like how when Olynyk plays the offense is just better flat out, even if he isn't directly involved in the play or dominating the ball and shooting a lot, and so many on this board can't figure out why.

Again, the Turner comes in and shoot midrange shots recipe is not the only way to make a basketball team.  In fact it is not really a good one and especially when it comes to the Playoffs.  You basically are asking Turner to do what superstar players to do, when he doesn't have that talent and he can't shoot threes or play off ball.  It made sense last year, but it was not that great of a formula and this year, with new additions (again the best player on the team being one of them) and other guys ready to make a jump, the team can change and in fact be something more.  I'd rather have more balance.  I feel very confident multiple guys will make a jump.  Clearly you don't, and we can talk in season.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2016, 02:28:41 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I disagree with your undervaluing the difference in game changing skills from Sully to Horford. You haven't proven it or even tried. Horford is an all-star and was the second biggest free agent. Only Toronto seems to have wanted Sullinger and for a small price compared to Horford. I do not understand your point. Sully was terrible or serviceable at best not too much better than a Tyler Zeller. I'd rather have Sully than David Lee, but that's not saying much. You seem to be underrating Horford.
The highlighted part isn't "skills", it's reputation. The point I am trying to make is that precisely in terms of skills and production, the actual marginal upgrade over Sullinger here is not as big as it looks when you just say "oh, we added this allstar to the roster".

Horford is a skilled all-around player and a great guy to have on your team, but he's not a go-to scorer, and not a great rebounder. He's more efficient than Sullinger offensively, and will likely soak up more minutes. The last aspect is not negligible, because it means that while Sullinger was in the rotation, there were 10 extra minutes going to the likes of Tyler Zeller and Jonas Jerebko.

Also, I'm sorry, if you seriously claim that Sullinger was "not much better than Tyler Zeller", I will have to respectfully question your judgement and understanding of the game of basketball.

The Turner loss is addition by subtraction. He is a ball hog (although he seemed to do less of that) who would have cut into Brown, Rozier and Smart minutes. Evan isn't better than Jae Crowder and isn't known for being a good small forward. He is a point-forward?
Turner was about the only player on the second unit that seemed to be able to handle the ball without dribbling it off his food or passing to the third row. He wasn't a ball hog, he was asked to handle the ball and run the team a lot because Marcus Smart was an unmitigated disaster and no-one on the second unit had any offensive capability other than hitting an open jumper.

There is still no guarantee that the team has adequately replaced this aspect of his game. Right now, we figure to be leaning heavily on a second-year player whose only credentials so far include tearing up the preseason and summer league.
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