Poll

Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?

Yes, many are underrating the Celtics
15 (22.1%)
No, we are overrating the Celtics
16 (23.5%)
No, we are being pegged about right
37 (54.4%)

Total Members Voted: 68

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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2016, 10:36:31 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Toronto has to be the favorite in the Atlantic given they have won it 3 straight years and should be a 55 win team.  They are very good and the only team in the East that beat the Cavs in the playoffs last year (and did so twice). 

Indiana is an interesting team.  I expect them to be very good, but Teague is not the defender Hill is and I wonder how they will guard anyone in the backcourt with Teague and Ellis.  That said, I expect Turner to keep improving, George to be fully back from his injury, and Young to provide some nice energy from the 4 spot.  I like Jefferson coming off the bench for like 15 minutes a night, but I'm not sure about the rest of the bench, especially the guards/wings.  Given they won 45 games last year and I think they improved a great deal, I could easily see them being a 55 win team and right there in the 2 seed mix.

I really like what Detroit has done.  I think they both could be a real threat in the playoffs, though with Jackson still out awhile can't see how they would be in play for the 2 seed.  I just wouldn't want to face them in the playoffs if they are healthy.  And let's not forget they were on pace for 50+ wins after acquiring Harris last year (before improving their bench this offseason).  The Pistons are the team I think gives Cleveland the worst matchup.  Drummond is a monster down low that Cleveland has no answer for.  They have to be healthy though as they don't have much depth.

I'd put Boston in the mix with those teams, but certainly have no issue with anyone thinking those teams pose more difficult matchups for Cleveland.  For as good as Horford is, he didn't solve any of the weaknesses on the team and Boston was already a very good defensive team.  Boston will still struggle to rebound, will still struggle to hit the three pointer, still has no reliable #1 scoring option (Thomas is too inconsistent and too small to be relied on in the post season), and still has no real offensive spark plug on the bench.  The team was terrible at generating offense last year when Thomas or Turner wasn't on the court.  Turner wasn't replaced at all, that doesn't bode well for the 2nd unit.  I'd expect Boston to be in the 50 win range as currently constructed.  Wouldn't surprise me to see 45 or 55 wins either. 

The Knicks are an interesting team.  I have no idea if they will win 35 games or 55 games.  And yes, I think they could win 55 games as they have a lot of talent.  I just have no idea if said talent will stay healthy and mesh well together.  But they definitely have an interesting roster that should be fun to watch.  And I could certainly see where someone could project them as the 2 seed though as they have one of the best scorers in the world, some very strong defenders, and a legit 2nd scorer (even if said scorer is a ball dominant PG and that doesn't even include Porzingis who should only get better in year 2).  The Knicks could score 110 a night and win a lot of games by just outscoring people and getting key stops in crunch time led by Noah, Porzingis, and Lee defensively. 
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2016, 10:53:16 AM »

Offline Diggles

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Hard to see an over rating when they have the 5th best odds to win it all.   
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2016, 10:56:48 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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I think we're being pegged just about right.  Top 4 team in the East.  A fairly realistic chance of reaching the Eastern Conference Finals. 

It's an improved team from last year's bunch.  It's reasonable to have raised expectations now.  I think Vegas, in particular, has the Celtics pegged pretty spot-on.   Talking heads seem to be more across the board. 


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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2016, 11:04:36 AM »

Offline Chief Macho

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overrated

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2016, 04:25:31 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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I just saw the NBA.com poll (who writes these things?), and they have the Celtics 6th, behind the Clippers and Toronto. Sully's foot injury just about kills any chance of Toronto finishing ahead of Boston, in my view. And it's a tossup as to whether Doc's team is better than the Celtics. Doubt it. Horford is a big upgrade for the Cs up front. I mean big.

You got three top teams, then the rest. The Celtics are right at or near the top of the rest.
I think the Celtics major goal this year should be winning the division.

What will separate these teams during the season will be INJURIES.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 04:30:32 PM by Bobshot »

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2016, 04:47:13 PM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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The glass is not half-empty. Being a 45+ win playoff team is just fine, and the outlook down the road is fantastic. But I do think the upgrade we're getting with Horford is overrated, the loss of Turner is underrated, and the production people expect from some of our starters this season is far from a given.

Fair enough. I don't think we have gotten a clear report card for playoffs. Isaiah fell on his back and was never the same in year one. Last year we were clearly banged up. The two wins were sort of impressive considering that. Granted Atlanta wasn't anything too special last year.

I disagree with your undervaluing the difference in game changing skills from Sully to Horford. You haven't proven it or even tried. Horford is an all-star and was the second biggest free agent. Only Toronto seems to have wanted Sullinger and for a small price compared to Horford. I do not understand your point. Sully was terrible or serviceable at best not too much better than a Tyler Zeller. I'd rather have Sully than David Lee, but that's not saying much. You seem to be underrating Horford.

The Turner loss is addition by subtraction. He is a ball hog (although he seemed to do less of that) who would have cut into Brown, Rozier and Smart minutes. Evan isn't better than Jae Crowder and isn't known for being a good small forward. He is a point-forward?

I do not think we will miss Turner one bit if the preseason is any indication. And that was without Olynyk who I expect to fine-tune his stats for assists versus turnovers.

Bradley had six assists in one game. I am curious how he has gotten so much better at ball handling, dribbling and passing. I hope it's not a mirage. Avery Bradley could be an additional reason why we won't miss Evan Turner.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2016, 04:53:38 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I just saw the NBA.com poll (who writes these things?), and they have the Celtics 6th, behind the Clippers and Toronto. Sully's foot injury just about kills any chance of Toronto finishing ahead of Boston, in my view. And it's a tossup as to whether Doc's team is better than the Celtics. Doubt it. Horford is a big upgrade for the Cs up front. I mean big.

You got three top teams, then the rest. The Celtics are right at or near the top of the rest.
I think the Celtics major goal this year should be winning the division.

What will separate these teams during the season will be INJURIES.
I think Toronto still finishes ahead of Boston, though the Sullinger injury makes the teams closer in my mind.  The Raptors still have Lowry, DeRozan, Carroll, Patterson, and Valanciunas as their starting 5 with Joseph, Ross, Siakam, Noguiera, and Poeltl on their bench.  Still a very strong team that should easily win 50 games barring major injury.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2016, 05:16:45 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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The glass is not half-empty. Being a 45+ win playoff team is just fine, and the outlook down the road is fantastic. But I do think the upgrade we're getting with Horford is overrated, the loss of Turner is underrated, and the production people expect from some of our starters this season is far from a given.

Fair enough. I don't think we have gotten a clear report card for playoffs. Isaiah fell on his back and was never the same in year one. Last year we were clearly banged up. The two wins were sort of impressive considering that. Granted Atlanta wasn't anything too special last year.

I disagree with your undervaluing the difference in game changing skills from Sully to Horford. You haven't proven it or even tried. Horford is an all-star and was the second biggest free agent. Only Toronto seems to have wanted Sullinger and for a small price compared to Horford. I do not understand your point. Sully was terrible or serviceable at best not too much better than a Tyler Zeller. I'd rather have Sully than David Lee, but that's not saying much. You seem to be underrating Horford.

The Turner loss is addition by subtraction. He is a ball hog (although he seemed to do less of that) who would have cut into Brown, Rozier and Smart minutes. Evan isn't better than Jae Crowder and isn't known for being a good small forward. He is a point-forward?

I do not think we will miss Turner one bit if the preseason is any indication. And that was without Olynyk who I expect to fine-tune his stats for assists versus turnovers.

Bradley had six assists in one game. I am curious how he has gotten so much better at ball handling, dribbling and passing. I hope it's not a mirage. Avery Bradley could be an additional reason why we won't miss Evan Turner.



 Great point about Bradley Celtics Pride. The only thing about Turner is he was really confident in the big moments. That can be hard to duplicate.

 Between the improvement of Bradley, Smart, Rozier and the addition of Horford, Green and Brown we should be just fine.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2016, 05:21:21 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Toronto has to be the favorite in the Atlantic given they have won it 3 straight years and should be a 55 win team.  They are very good and the only team in the East that beat the Cavs in the playoffs last year (and did so twice). 

Indiana is an interesting team.  I expect them to be very good, but Teague is not the defender Hill is and I wonder how they will guard anyone in the backcourt with Teague and Ellis.  That said, I expect Turner to keep improving, George to be fully back from his injury, and Young to provide some nice energy from the 4 spot.  I like Jefferson coming off the bench for like 15 minutes a night, but I'm not sure about the rest of the bench, especially the guards/wings.  Given they won 45 games last year and I think they improved a great deal, I could easily see them being a 55 win team and right there in the 2 seed mix.

I really like what Detroit has done.  I think they both could be a real threat in the playoffs, though with Jackson still out awhile can't see how they would be in play for the 2 seed.  I just wouldn't want to face them in the playoffs if they are healthy.  And let's not forget they were on pace for 50+ wins after acquiring Harris last year (before improving their bench this offseason).  The Pistons are the team I think gives Cleveland the worst matchup.  Drummond is a monster down low that Cleveland has no answer for.  They have to be healthy though as they don't have much depth.

I'd put Boston in the mix with those teams, but certainly have no issue with anyone thinking those teams pose more difficult matchups for Cleveland.  For as good as Horford is, he didn't solve any of the weaknesses on the team and Boston was already a very good defensive team.  Boston will still struggle to rebound, will still struggle to hit the three pointer, still has no reliable #1 scoring option (Thomas is too inconsistent and too small to be relied on in the post season), and still has no real offensive spark plug on the bench.  The team was terrible at generating offense last year when Thomas or Turner wasn't on the court.  Turner wasn't replaced at all, that doesn't bode well for the 2nd unit.  I'd expect Boston to be in the 50 win range as currently constructed.  Wouldn't surprise me to see 45 or 55 wins either. 

The Knicks are an interesting team.  I have no idea if they will win 35 games or 55 games.  And yes, I think they could win 55 games as they have a lot of talent.  I just have no idea if said talent will stay healthy and mesh well together.  But they definitely have an interesting roster that should be fun to watch.  And I could certainly see where someone could project them as the 2 seed though as they have one of the best scorers in the world, some very strong defenders, and a legit 2nd scorer (even if said scorer is a ball dominant PG and that doesn't even include Porzingis who should only get better in year 2).  The Knicks could score 110 a night and win a lot of games by just outscoring people and getting key stops in crunch time led by Noah, Porzingis, and Lee defensively.

I just don't think these things are generally accepted as true, though. In fact, I've heard the majority of analysts say that they don't think Toronto will replicate what they did last year, especially with as bad of basketball as they play, i.e. totally iso-dependent (iirc, they were dead last in assists and/or assist percentage last year). That's pretty much the prevailing opinion from what I've seen, and most have tagged Indiana as more of the probable number 2 seed than Toronto.

And saying Horford didn't improve any of our weaknesses requires having a very narrow-minded view of his contributions and/or our weaknesses. First, he most definitely helps our three point shooting weakness, especially from the big position, which also has the added benefit of creating much more spacing for IT's penetration. Second,he provides a second star to take emphasis off of IT, which is also a major weakness that we had. Third, our defense was very good before, but replacing Horford with Sully stands to make it dramatically better, which while that's not necessarily a weakness, it's still a major development for us. Finally, it's time to drop the whole notion of Horford being a bad rebounder. He dominated the boards in the preseason, which admittedly was a small-sample size, but it does concur with the theory many of us hold that his pairing with elite rebounders in Atlanta ultimately drove down his rebounding numbers.

People are definitely sleeping on us this year, especially the impact Horford will have on our team. We'll be after thoughts at the start, but I guarantee you by around January or February there's going to be this surprised narrative of how good we are and the possibility of us winning the conference in the regular season.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2016, 05:26:10 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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What is most amazing to me is the number of Celtics fans who are apparently still sleeping on Al Horford, on top of those who clearly significantly overrate the difficulty of replacing Evan Turner.

My question to those who suggest that Sullinger and Turner for Horford is a wash is... Have you seen these guys play?
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2016, 05:30:09 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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What is most amazing to me is the number of Celtics fans who are apparently still sleeping on Al Horford, on top of those who clearly significantly overrate the difficulty of replacing Evan Turner.

My question to those who suggest that Sullinger and Turner for Horford is a wash is... Have you seen these guys play?

Same here. I mean, he's [dang] near a perfect fit in our system, which was absolutely proven in the preseason. He seemed to fit in seamlessly, and his playmaking was even better than I was expecting.

What are your predictions for the regular season for us, Pho? I think we're ideally in the range of 54-60 wins, as long as there's no significant injuries to deal with.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2016, 06:25:32 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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What is most amazing to me is the number of Celtics fans who are apparently still sleeping on Al Horford, on top of those who clearly significantly overrate the difficulty of replacing Evan Turner.

My question to those who suggest that Sullinger and Turner for Horford is a wash is... Have you seen these guys play?

You're right about Horford replacing Sully.

But Turner's loss is still important. He was the only other player on our team who could create his own offense. I really love the Horford signing, and am thankful he chose us, but he's not a guy who can make his own shot all the time. Turner was crafty with the ball, he had his behind the back moves, his cross overs, his fade-aways, he had all that. He was able to score the ball whenever we had an offensive drought. Maybe Terry becomes an eventual replacement, but as of now we don't have that clutch scorer off the bench for us, a guy who could create for himself and also find his teammates for open looks.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2016, 06:48:34 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Turner is a decent ball handler and creator, but the shots he created for himself are not efficient ones, and his presence on the floor is a detriment whenever he isn't handling the ball.

He's a nice player, and the Celts bench may have some growing pains in replacing him, but Turner is not the kind of guy who makes a big difference for a team one way or another apart from a handful of fourth quarters where he may get hot and hit some tough shots.


Horford on the other hand is a top 30 player in the league. He will unlock so many things for this team offensively and defensively. He is exactly what this team lacked from its big men, a guy who can play starter minutes and produce at an above average level on both ends. He is an excellent extremely well rounded player. He is the best big man the Celts have had since garnett, and it is not especially close.


I feel the Celts are set up to win 50-55 games if they avoid any major injury disasters and enjoy decent luck in close games.

The Horford signing means the floor has been raised for this team, and so have the expectations. Fewer than 50 wins would be a disappointment. Failing to make the second round and put up a decent fight to try to get to the conference finals would also be a disappointment.

Im excited to get things started and see what happens.
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Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2016, 08:33:21 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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People will likely disagree with me, but I think people are underrating the Celtics.  I think the Celtics are the second best team in the East this year.

We spent most of the second half of last season as the #3 seed in the East until we started running into some untimely injuries (KO, Crowder, etc) which saw us slip a little, but still finished the season in a four-way tie for the #4 seed.

This year we have added Al Hoford.  I must admit that I underestimated this acquisition initially, but watching him play with that first unit - his presence is a legitimate game changer.  Boston's entire style of play changes with Horford on the court in place of Sully.  On offense the ball is constantly moving, we finally have a big who can score efficiently and who demands attention from the D, no matter where he is on the court.   On defense we have a bit who can move his feet well enough to defend the P&R and cover multiple positions, and we have a guy who can protect the paint.  For the first time since Kevin Garnett, we have a legit starting caliber (and All-Star caliber) big man.  That change is going to impact the win column more then people realize, I think.

When you have Horford/Johnson/Crowder/Bradley all on the court at the same time, you have a legitimate chance at having the best defense in the NBA. 

Yet when you have Thomas/Bradley/Crowder/Horford on the court all at the same time, you have a legitimate shot at being one of the best offensive teams in the NBA.

For this reason, I predict that our starting 5 is likely going to be one of the most dominant +/- lineups in the league this year.

Then the bench.

We have Marcus Smart - an outstanding defender and hustle guy who seems to have improved his offensive game quite substantially.

We have Terry Rozier - a guy who has come out of nowhere and shown that he can really put the ball in the bucket.  If he plays as well as I anticipate he's capable of, he might be a potential 6MOTY candidate (the award tends to favor scorers).

We have Gerald Green - a guy who provides shooting, scoring and athleticism - some of the things we desperately lacked last year off our bench.

We have Jaylen Brown - a guy who I initially didn't expect to see much off, but that's changed after the way he played in the preseason.  This kid has serious talent, and he's got the ability to impact the game on both ends of the court.

We have Jonas Jerebko - a solid energy guy who can defend multiple positions and is a knock down shooter.

We have Kelly Olynyk - a hugely underrated defensive player, a skilled playmaker and one of the best shooting 7 footers in the game.

Last year we had a bench that couldn't shoot.  This year if we need scoring we can put a second unit of Rozier, Green, Brown, Jerebko and Olynyk on the court and every one of those guys can hit the three. 

Same with the starters - Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Johnson and Horford are all capable of making the defense pay defense pay if left open from three.

This roster may not be filled with celebrity names, but we have pretty much everything you could want from a team - we have elite defenders, we have quality scorers, we have a plethora of outside shooters, we have athleticism, we have depth, we have chemistry, we have hustle, we have heart, and we have one of the best young coaches in the game. 

This team is going to be very, very difficult to beat.  I have to put Cleveland and Golden State above us.  Probably San Antonio too.  Beyond that, I can't think of a single other team in the league that stands out as being a cut above the Celtics.

The Bulls won't touch us.  The Pacers and Raptors will probably make it tough on us, but I believe we're better then both.  The Bulls won't touch us. 

I'm predicting we finish #2 in the East behind the Cavs - and I think we'll give the Cavs a REALLY tough run every time we play them, too.  With guys like Smart, Crowder, Brown and Jerebko on the roster there are few teams who can throw as many capable defenders at Lebron as we can.  Thomas is a match for Kyrie in every way.  Horford is practically built to compete with Kevin Love.  Our depth far exceeds theirs. 

Not saying we'll be Cavs-killers, but there will be few teams who can give them a tougher time then us.

Re: Poll: Are People Sleeping on the Celtics?
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2016, 12:49:01 AM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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Great point about Bradley Celtics Pride. The only thing about Turner is he was really confident in the big moments. That can be hard to duplicate.

 Between the improvement of Bradley, Smart, Rozier and the addition of Horford, Green and Brown we should be just fine.

Turner not returning was economics. He had become too expensive for someone not indispensable. The only problem is people might think Danny let an asset go for nothing. It couldn't be helped. We needed him last year.

I agree Evan Turner became clutch with ice in his veins.

But in hindsight, the only reason Turner got so many pg minutes was because Bradley, Smart and Rozier couldn't handle it and Isaiah was too short at times or ineffective. One always needs a plan B.

We shouldn't be this good right now, but I imagine the credit should go to players such as Rozier and Smart who definitely picked up their pg games. Hopefully Bradley has added yet another facet to his tool kit with ball handling.

Maybe we take it for granted how much these guys have to adjust from college and now they are leaving much earlier than past decades. The draft was never such a crapshoot?

So say Marcus Smart comes in as a rookie. You don't want to destroy his ego by forcing him into pg minutes. He first needed to master defense and other parts of the game.

I don't know how Rozier turned it around, but everyone is saying he did and has earned an important rotation position.

Maybe we are short a small forward or a lot will be expected of Jaylen Brown. Jae can play 33 minutes and Jaylen 15. Rozier and Smart can back up Isaiah. I'm not seeing where Turner would have fit in. Or maybe Danny has gotten lucky that Rozier and Smart showed up this year ready for business.