I said that they ran some offense through him not that he was a PG. Kind of like we ran some offense through Pierce even though Rondo was the PG. Ingram will do fine off ball like he did at Duke. He's just way too good to limit him to that.
I understand that - what I'm saying is that Russell, Clarkson nd Nick Young are all ball handlers chuckers/volume scorers.
Then you have Randle - a guy who is horrendous defensively and has no three point shot, and therefore depends heavily on having a lot of offensive touches in order to be productive.
As long as those guys are on the court, there is a limit to how much offense is going to run through Ingram. He's likely to spend most of his time playing off the ball simply because, out of all the guys currently on that roster, he's probably the most suited to that role (as his the best catch-and-shoot guy of the lot).
I also think your evaluation of Ingram is off. His lateral quickness and explosiveness while not eye popping are plenty good enough. Ingram grew up in Kinston NC playing against older, bigger, stronger players. He was mentored by Jerry Stackhouse. At Duke, he was forced to played PF and usually did quite well even while giving up 20+ lbs. He has no issue with toughness.
Ingram did quite well, you say, while giving up 20 lbs against amateur players who are less skilled and less athletic.
In the NBA most nights he's going to be giving up 40+ lbs against guys who are more skilled, more experienced and more athletic.
Big difference.
You say his lateral quickness and explosiveness are "good enough". I say that at the NBA level Ingram is going to need to have athleticism that is well beyond "good enough" in order to compensate for how skinny/weak he is.
Look at the other really skinny guys who excelled in the NBA.
* Lamar Odom had outstanding athleticism, was a great defender, and could pass/handle like a PG
* Anthony Davis is an elite athlete who is dominant (even in college) on both ends of the court
* Kevin Garnett had elite athleticism, could pass/dribble/shoot, had a great post game, and is
one of the best defenders ever to play the game
*Kevin Durant had elite athleticism, could handle and pass the ball like a guard, and rebounded like a PF
* Dwight Howard (yes, he was skinny in College) was deceptively strong and was also an elite athlete who was a dominant rebounder and defender
Ingram doesn't have close to the talent/skill combination that those guys had. His skill level and talent level are more on par with somebody like Tayshaun Prince.
Prince was a good shooter. Wasn't an elite defender, but was always a quality one. Never had "PG like" passing/dribbling skills, but was competent. Never a great rebounder, but an above average one. Wasn't an elite athlete, but was mobile enough. Didn't have an "alpha dog" mentality, but a polite and quite kid and good locker room guy with high Basketball IQ.
That passage above could be "the ultimate scouts guide to Brandon Ingram", as it describes him pretty much to perfection.
If you're in the NBA and you are as skinny as Ingram is, you're gong to get killed by stronger guys. You're going to have to offset that by being quicker then they are, which Ingram right now just isn't. To make matters worse Ingram is going to have to put on weight in order to be able to defend NBA size, and we he does his quickness is almost certainly going to be further reduced.
People look at Ingram and they seem to think that his length and shooting ability alone will be enough to make him an NBA star.
Do you guys know that Rudy Gay has pretty much the exact same physical measurements as Ingram?
Rudy Gay is 6'8" with a 7'3" wingspan, he's far more athletic then Ingram, he's about40 pounds stronger, and he's easily as skilled while also having a similar laid-back personality. He's a good player, but he's never been an All-Star.
What does Ingram have that he doesn't?
As for leadership, he led his high school to 4 straight championships. Even if he isn't a leader, that is not a requirement for success or even stardom in the NBA. Coach K was effusive in his praise for Ingram and called him no-maintenance.
Tell that to guys like Rudy Gay and Jeff Green - supremely talented prospects who never truly became stars, mostly due to their inconsistent motors and lack of leadership skills.
Not saying Ingram is cut from the same mold, but not saying he isn't either.
By all reports Ingram is a really nice, polite, quiet kid. Good lockeroom guy, team-first guy. You could say all the same things about Jeff Green.
There are also quite a few scouting reports out there that raised concerns over Ingram's inconsistent motor (especially on defense) and his general lack of "desire to win" - that he often just costs around like he's 'going through he motions'. You could say all of those things about Jeff Green too.
Now Ingram is only 18 years old so you can't just paint him with that brush and assume he'll stay that way - but it's a concern none the less.
Regarding Brown's turnovers, he did have a problem in college. 2.0 assists to 3.1 turnovers is worse than Bradley bad. Stars can have a high turnover rate because they have a high usage rate and produce like stars. But Brown isn't a star yet.
I'm aware of that.
Ingram averaged 2.0 assists to 2.0 turnovers in college - not exactly spectacular numbers there either for a guy who's praised for his basketball IQ.
Avery Bradley averaged 2.1 assists and 1.5 turnovers in college, so guess who else is a worse playmaker then Avery Bradley?
Yep, Brendan Ingram is!
Ingram will be playing the 2/3 not the 4 initially so he won't be giving up 40+ lbs to everyone. He'll grow into his body and NBA strength training will help. Let's say he doesn't. You just play him at SG. He's got the skillset and its a weak position. At Duke, Ingram's defense was pretty good. When they were playing zone, Coach K had him play at the top of the key and he was generally quite active. One thing to remember is Duke only played 6 players. They couldn't afford foul trouble. They lost a couple games midseason when Ingram got in foul trouble. Where do you come up with he has "no desire to win"? He led his high school team to 4 championships. As you said he's a team player. He did what coach K asked of him to win including playing PF when their starting PF was injured. Do you think Coach K would have been so high on Ingram if Ingram didn't have a desire to win? Is Ingram a sure thing? Certainly not but I like his chances to be at minimum a good starter with solid star potential.
As for comparing him to Rudy Gay, I don't remember much about young Rudy Gay so I can't make a comparison.
Ingram cannot play SG...he has nowhere near the quickness or the ball handling capabilities to play the SG spot.
At the NBA level he's going to be a SF/PF, and if he's trying to go up against 200 pound SG's they will blow by him like he's standing still.
Some really excellent posts, Crimson. TP.
I agree on his not being a SG. He would get torched defensively. His sluggishness and lack of strength could really hurt his versatility.
I like Ingram a lot as a prospect, but the criticisms about his weight and physicality are legit. It's something he needs to overcome if he's ever going to become a force in this league.
