Ingram

[green_bballers13]

I just watched Ingram's highlight from last night. He looked solid. My only question- do you think his shooting stroke might be overrated? It doesn't look as silky smooth as many other "lights out" shooters. I'm not expecting him to look like Ray Allen, but do you think he will absolutely have a better shot that Jaylen in 5 years? I know it's tough to predict, but I'm not in love with what my eyes show me re: Ingram.

[LarBrd33]

I just watched Ingram's highlight from last night. He looked solid. My only question- do you think his shooting stroke might be overrated? It doesn't look as silky smooth as many other "lights out" shooters. I'm not expecting him to look like Ray Allen, but do you think he will absolutely have a better shot that Jaylen in 5 years? I know it's tough to predict, but I'm not in love with what my eyes show me re: Ingram.

Shooting 39% from three in limited preseason action is pretty solid.   Looks like he has a nice shot.  He shot 41% from three in College so it looks like it's carrying over.

He'll struggle this year though.  He looks rail thin.  Durant was a lot further along when he joined the league and even he struggled shooting as a rookie: 43% and 29% from three.

Not sure about how Jaylen will develop, really.   He was a bad shooter in college and looks like a bad shooter now.   Maybe that changes.  His form seems ok.   The hope is that in 5 years Jaylen is better than Jimmy Butler.

[Grindfather]

FWIW,

About even, but Ingram has been slightly better than Jaylen in preseason.  He has the higher EFF rating (8.4 to 7.5).  Comes down to better three point shooting and less turnovers. 

Ingram:  8.1 points, 2.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.1 blocks, 0.7 steals, 0.3 turnovers with 41%/39%/54% shooting in 24mpg.

Brown:  10.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 42%/28%/59% in 23.3mpg

Ingram is 11 months younger.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.   While Jaylen wasn't widely believed to have a high ceiling, Boston clear thought otherwise.  Hopefully they are right.

This is very untrue.

[tarheelsxxiii]

FWIW,

About even, but Ingram has been slightly better than Jaylen in preseason.  He has the higher EFF rating (8.4 to 7.5).  Comes down to better three point shooting and less turnovers. 

Ingram:  8.1 points, 2.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.1 blocks, 0.7 steals, 0.3 turnovers with 41%/39%/54% shooting in 24mpg.

Brown:  10.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 42%/28%/59% in 23.3mpg

Ingram is 11 months younger.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.   While Jaylen wasn't widely believed to have a high ceiling, Boston clear thought otherwise.  Hopefully they are right.

This is very untrue.

...based on?

[LarBrd33]

FWIW,

About even, but Ingram has been slightly better than Jaylen in preseason.  He has the higher EFF rating (8.4 to 7.5).  Comes down to better three point shooting and less turnovers. 

Ingram:  8.1 points, 2.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.1 blocks, 0.7 steals, 0.3 turnovers with 41%/39%/54% shooting in 24mpg.

Brown:  10.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 42%/28%/59% in 23.3mpg

Ingram is 11 months younger.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.   While Jaylen wasn't widely believed to have a high ceiling, Boston clear thought otherwise.  Hopefully they are right.

This is very untrue.

It's actually very true, though it's up to your interpretation of what we mean when we say "widely believed to have a high ceiling".   Most would agree Jaylen had/has potential.  The consensus was that he was unlikely to develop into a star.  Even now, most of the national articles I read suggest the same thing.   That's why he was projected 8th on most mocks in what was seen as a 2 player draft.   But Boston took him 3rd... so we can assume Boston believes in his ceiling more than the widespread consensus opinion.

On the flip said... consensus was that Ingram had/has star potential.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.  The assumption is that Ingram is far more likely to develop into a star than Brown.  That doesn't mean it will pan out that way.

[alldaboston]

Ingram highlights.  Looking good especially since it was against GSW whose big 4 all played 30+ minutes. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUEQrwMG-QM

Dude has the body of a pencil.  Basically the opposite of Jaylen.  Jaylen has an NBA-ready body already.  When people talk about Ingram's ceiling they must be considering how his body will evolve as he grows up and how it will impact his game (which is already arguably better than Jaylen)

maybe i'm just used to seeing Jaylen's bursts of speed, but Ingram looks slow imo. the whole "stickman body" thing aside, it really looks like he's stiff as he's dribbling and driving.

[Grindfather]

FWIW,

About even, but Ingram has been slightly better than Jaylen in preseason.  He has the higher EFF rating (8.4 to 7.5).  Comes down to better three point shooting and less turnovers. 

Ingram:  8.1 points, 2.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.1 blocks, 0.7 steals, 0.3 turnovers with 41%/39%/54% shooting in 24mpg.

Brown:  10.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 42%/28%/59% in 23.3mpg

Ingram is 11 months younger.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.   While Jaylen wasn't widely believed to have a high ceiling, Boston clear thought otherwise.  Hopefully they are right.

This is very untrue.

It's actually very true, though it's up to your interpretation of what we mean when we say "widely believed to have a high ceiling".   Most would agree Jaylen had/has potential.  The consensus was that he was unlikely to develop into a star.  Even now, most of the national articles I read suggest the same thing.   That's why he was projected 8th on most mocks in what was seen as a 2 player draft.   But Boston took him 3rd... so we can assume Boston believes in his ceiling more than the widespread consensus opinion.

On the flip said... consensus was that Ingram had/has star potential.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.  The assumption is that Ingram is far more likely to develop into a star than Brown.  That doesn't mean it will pan out that way.

You're not offering any evidence beyond hollow "many people are saying" conjecture.  How are you interpreting "high ceiling"? Quite a bit of pre-draft discussion of Jaylen was that he was a boom or bust prospect.  In other words, low floor, high ceiling.  In other other words if he puts it together he could be awesome. 

From Kevin O'Connor:

Brown has special characteristics that could make him the best player in this draft.

From Sam Vecenie (CBS Sports):

While Brown also has some questions about his game, there's not much use in questioning his upside. At 6-7 with a 7-foot wingspan and tremendous explosiveness, Brown could become an all-star if things broke right for him.

Even if he doesn't hit his ceiling as a dynamic, versatile two-way all-star, it's hard to envision Brown entirely flaming out in the NBA due to his athleticism and defense.

Ben Dowsett's article is literally called "Jaylen Brown Leaping at His Sky-High Ceiling"
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/jaylen-brown-leaping-at-his-sky-high-ceiling/

Now if what you are saying is that Jaylen was much less of a "can't miss" prospect than Ingram, that I'll accept.  The pre-draft consensus was that only Simmons and Ingram were anywhere near locks to be future All-Star level players.

[PhoSita]

My main concern watching Ingram is that he looks slow and not especially explosive.

I think his future is probably as an offensive minded four, sort of like Rashard Lewis.  Watching the highlights of Warriors - Lakers it is very clear that he is nothing like Durant in terms of physical gifts, even if their frames are similar.

[celticsclay]

FWIW,

About even, but Ingram has been slightly better than Jaylen in preseason.  He has the higher EFF rating (8.4 to 7.5).  Comes down to better three point shooting and less turnovers. 

Ingram:  8.1 points, 2.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.1 blocks, 0.7 steals, 0.3 turnovers with 41%/39%/54% shooting in 24mpg.

Brown:  10.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 42%/28%/59% in 23.3mpg

Ingram is 11 months younger.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.   While Jaylen wasn't widely believed to have a high ceiling, Boston clear thought otherwise.  Hopefully they are right.

This is very untrue.

It's actually very true, though it's up to your interpretation of what we mean when we say "widely believed to have a high ceiling".   Most would agree Jaylen had/has potential.  The consensus was that he was unlikely to develop into a star.  Even now, most of the national articles I read suggest the same thing.   That's why he was projected 8th on most mocks in what was seen as a 2 player draft.   But Boston took him 3rd... so we can assume Boston believes in his ceiling more than the widespread consensus opinion.

On the flip said... consensus was that Ingram had/has star potential.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.  The assumption is that Ingram is far more likely to develop into a star than Brown.  That doesn't mean it will pan out that way.

You're not offering any evidence beyond hollow "many people are saying" conjecture.  How are you interpreting "high ceiling"? Quite a bit of pre-draft discussion of Jaylen was that he was a boom or bust prospect.  In other words, low floor, high ceiling.  In other other words if he puts it together he could be awesome. 

From Kevin O'Connor:

Brown has special characteristics that could make him the best player in this draft.

From Sam Vecenie (CBS Sports):

While Brown also has some questions about his game, there's not much use in questioning his upside. At 6-7 with a 7-foot wingspan and tremendous explosiveness, Brown could become an all-star if things broke right for him.

Even if he doesn't hit his ceiling as a dynamic, versatile two-way all-star, it's hard to envision Brown entirely flaming out in the NBA due to his athleticism and defense.

Ben Dowsett's article is literally called "Jaylen Brown Leaping at His Sky-High Ceiling"
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/jaylen-brown-leaping-at-his-sky-high-ceiling/

Now if what you are saying is that Jaylen was much less of a "can't miss" prospect than Ingram, that I'll accept.  The pre-draft consensus was that only Simmons and Ingram were anywhere near locks to be future All-Star level players.

Chad ford had him in the non-star tier, so that kind of outweighs a lot of this stuff by a significant margin. Ingram on the other hand was listed as a tier 2. The thing with LB is that every word he types has been very carefully researched and vetted. If you ever think for a moment that you have caught him in a mistake, double check your posts and his, without a doubt the true misunderstanding will have been typed out from your own fingertips.

[manl_lui]

FWIW,

About even, but Ingram has been slightly better than Jaylen in preseason.  He has the higher EFF rating (8.4 to 7.5).  Comes down to better three point shooting and less turnovers. 

Ingram:  8.1 points, 2.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.1 blocks, 0.7 steals, 0.3 turnovers with 41%/39%/54% shooting in 24mpg.

Brown:  10.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 42%/28%/59% in 23.3mpg

Ingram is 11 months younger.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.   While Jaylen wasn't widely believed to have a high ceiling, Boston clear thought otherwise.  Hopefully they are right.

This is very untrue.

It's actually very true, though it's up to your interpretation of what we mean when we say "widely believed to have a high ceiling".   Most would agree Jaylen had/has potential.  The consensus was that he was unlikely to develop into a star.  Even now, most of the national articles I read suggest the same thing.   That's why he was projected 8th on most mocks in what was seen as a 2 player draft.   But Boston took him 3rd... so we can assume Boston believes in his ceiling more than the widespread consensus opinion.

On the flip said... consensus was that Ingram had/has star potential.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.  The assumption is that Ingram is far more likely to develop into a star than Brown.  That doesn't mean it will pan out that way.

I think the analysis is fair, but given we chose him at #3, and comparing his impact now during preseason with Ingram and other rookies between 3 - 8 range, I think Brown played pretty well. Now if he can prove scouters wrong, that'd be great for us, but otherwise I think I am happy with Brown with the #3 pick.

[tankcity!]

Will be interesting to see what happens. I think the thing that LBrrd is forgetting is that most reports had him reaching his potential after he would grow into his body. The projection is that he won't be a stick in the future. Well my friend I'm going to safely assume he'll always be a stick.

Maybe one day Ingram can average 20, but I don't see him as a star player. Jaylen however has star potential. Now national writers haven't shed him in a good light, but who cares what Chad Ford or the media thinks? Do you think the Celtics do? They wouldn't of drafted Rozier if they did.

I hope people realize that players on the Celtics will always be underrated nationally. Pierce was, same with KG. It's just how it is. We aren't in a hot basketball spot like Miami. So relax. Lbbrd is making some points that are truly irrelevant at the end of the day when it comes to evaluation.

PS, Pelton just recently wrote an article saying Brown is now the most valued asset according to NBA front office execs. So we can't assume the evaluation will remain the same from the draft. It changes when you see a guy play against NBA talent in the preseason.

[alldaboston]

Chad ford had him in the non-star tier, so that kind of outweighs a lot of this stuff by a significant margin. Ingram on the other hand was listed as a tier 2. The thing with LB is that every word he types has been very carefully researched and vetted. If you ever think for a moment that you have caught him in a mistake, double check your posts and his, without a doubt the true misunderstanding will have been typed out from your own fingertips.

lol, i cant help but laugh at this. its so [dang] true haha. each of his arguments are so carefully worded that you can never get back at him.

[tankcity!]

FWIW,

About even, but Ingram has been slightly better than Jaylen in preseason.  He has the higher EFF rating (8.4 to 7.5).  Comes down to better three point shooting and less turnovers. 

Ingram:  8.1 points, 2.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.1 blocks, 0.7 steals, 0.3 turnovers with 41%/39%/54% shooting in 24mpg.

Brown:  10.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 42%/28%/59% in 23.3mpg

Ingram is 11 months younger.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.   While Jaylen wasn't widely believed to have a high ceiling, Boston clear thought otherwise.  Hopefully they are right.

You have to admit, nobody thought Jaylen was shooting over 40% his rookie year. Let's hope that trend continues. Would be major

[tankcity!]

My main concern watching Ingram is that he looks slow and not especially explosive.

I think his future is probably as an offensive minded four, sort of like Rashard Lewis.  Watching the highlights of Warriors - Lakers it is very clear that he is nothing like Durant in terms of physical gifts, even if their frames are similar.

That's my main concern too. Is he going to have to play PF? If so, he needs more muscle. I think Rashard Lewis is a great comp.

[wayupnorth]

FWIW,

About even, but Ingram has been slightly better than Jaylen in preseason.  He has the higher EFF rating (8.4 to 7.5).  Comes down to better three point shooting and less turnovers. 

Ingram:  8.1 points, 2.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.1 blocks, 0.7 steals, 0.3 turnovers with 41%/39%/54% shooting in 24mpg.

Brown:  10.7 points, 2.8 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.4 blocks, 1 steal, 1.7 turnovers, 42%/28%/59% in 23.3mpg

Ingram is 11 months younger.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.   While Jaylen wasn't widely believed to have a high ceiling, Boston clear thought otherwise.  Hopefully they are right.

This is very untrue.

It's actually very true, though it's up to your interpretation of what we mean when we say "widely believed to have a high ceiling".   Most would agree Jaylen had/has potential.  The consensus was that he was unlikely to develop into a star.  Even now, most of the national articles I read suggest the same thing.   That's why he was projected 8th on most mocks in what was seen as a 2 player draft.   But Boston took him 3rd... so we can assume Boston believes in his ceiling more than the widespread consensus opinion.

On the flip said... consensus was that Ingram had/has star potential.  He's widely believed to have a high ceiling.  The assumption is that Ingram is far more likely to develop into a star than Brown.  That doesn't mean it will pan out that way.

You're not offering any evidence beyond hollow "many people are saying" conjecture.  How are you interpreting "high ceiling"? Quite a bit of pre-draft discussion of Jaylen was that he was a boom or bust prospect.  In other words, low floor, high ceiling.  In other other words if he puts it together he could be awesome. 

From Kevin O'Connor:

Brown has special characteristics that could make him the best player in this draft.

From Sam Vecenie (CBS Sports):

While Brown also has some questions about his game, there's not much use in questioning his upside. At 6-7 with a 7-foot wingspan and tremendous explosiveness, Brown could become an all-star if things broke right for him.

Even if he doesn't hit his ceiling as a dynamic, versatile two-way all-star, it's hard to envision Brown entirely flaming out in the NBA due to his athleticism and defense.

Ben Dowsett's article is literally called "Jaylen Brown Leaping at His Sky-High Ceiling"
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/jaylen-brown-leaping-at-his-sky-high-ceiling/

Now if what you are saying is that Jaylen was much less of a "can't miss" prospect than Ingram, that I'll accept.  The pre-draft consensus was that only Simmons and Ingram were anywhere near locks to be future All-Star level players.

Chad ford had him in the non-star tier, so that kind of outweighs a lot of this stuff by a significant margin. Ingram on the other hand was listed as a tier 2. The thing with LB is that every word he types has been very carefully researched and vetted. If you ever think for a moment that you have caught him in a mistake, double check your posts and his, without a doubt the true misunderstanding will have been typed out from your own fingertips.

Is this supposed to be read ironically?