Author Topic: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today  (Read 3467 times)

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Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2016, 09:03:51 AM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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I don't think you can say Russell and Wilt went back and forth. That's like saying Peyton Manning and Tom Brady and Ben Rothlisburger went back and forth. No they didn't
Sure you can, Bill and Wilt were very close and some seasons one was clearly better, some the other was clearly better.  I mean MVP's were 5 to 4 (4 each while the other was in the league).  I think you could actually make the stronger case for Wilt as the better player more years than Russell (MVP's aside), but with the team success it does skew a bit back towards Russell.
It's just that rings are the only thing that matters.

Rings reflect a teams success, MVP reflects an individuals success and influence  on a team.
Russell was a great competitor, however I don't think he would ever say that he was better than Wilt.  The key factor not being mentioned-Auerbach.  I think  you could make a strong case that if 
Red coached Chamberlain, there would  have been alot more rings on Wilts fingers.
"Just do what you do best."  -Red Auerbach-

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2016, 09:03:53 AM »

Offline Celtics17

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Would the Celtics have won as many titles if Wilt played on those teams instead of Russ? It's really hard to answer. Everyone just assumes that Wilt's ego would make the team worse, but would it? Would he be the same player had he had Red to coach him?

Chamberlain had all the tools Russ did and then some. If a team needed him to just rebound and play D then he would have done that. The Celtics would have then also had the benefit of having a great scorer they could go to when needed. Chamberlain's teams didnt have the lluxury of just using him to rebound and play D though, he had to score and in bunches.

It's really not a fair comparison since his teams asked him to do so much more. Playing with several other HOF players really does make the difference. How many title would Jordan win without Pippen? Oh yeah, we already know that, none!

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2016, 10:01:53 AM »

Offline eja117

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I don't think you can say Russell and Wilt went back and forth. That's like saying Peyton Manning and Tom Brady and Ben Rothlisburger went back and forth. No they didn't
Sure you can, Bill and Wilt were very close and some seasons one was clearly better, some the other was clearly better.  I mean MVP's were 5 to 4 (4 each while the other was in the league).  I think you could actually make the stronger case for Wilt as the better player more years than Russell (MVP's aside), but with the team success it does skew a bit back towards Russell.
It's just that rings are the only thing that matters.

Rings reflect a teams success, MVP reflects an individuals success and influence  on a team.
Russell was a great competitor, however I don't think he would ever say that he was better than Wilt.  The key factor not being mentioned-Auerbach.  I think  you could make a strong case that if 
Red coached Chamberlain, there would  have been alot more rings on Wilts fingers.
But that wouldn't mean Bill wasn't the best player of his era.

This ignores that Bill was a great player well before he got to Red. He had two NCAA championships and an Olympic gold before Red. Wilt had none of that.

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2016, 10:02:33 AM »

Offline eja117

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2016, 10:04:39 AM »

Offline Moranis

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.
again which team is better?

Team A
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
KC Jones
Tom Sanders
Frank Ramsey
Willie Naulls
Clyde Lovellette

Team B
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Guy Rodgers
Al Attles
Gary Phillips
Wayne Hightower
Gary Hill
George Lee
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 11:51:15 AM by Moranis »
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Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2016, 11:05:15 AM »

Offline showtime

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Kobe deserves to be in there.  So does Duncan.  Even KG's career was very similar to Lebron. The difference is lebron jumped ship earlier to get his ring where KG remained loyal to minnesota.  If anything Lebron has been very beatable and has lost to quite a few guys in the finals. I'm not sure that spells dominance.   Kobe was just as dangerous if not moreso.  Jordan was similar in that he didn't win anything until those celtics and lakers teams were gone.  He beat the Patrick Ewings, Reggie Millers and Barkleys and Malones of the world.  He went and played baseball while Olajuwan and Drexler were winning.   Lebron has been beat up pretty good.

Does that make KG an idiot and a self defeatist for staying in Minny? I don't think so it more just speaks to the kind of person he was.

I think Lebron is overrated that way though. Dude jumped ship did whatever he could to put himself in the best situation for him alone and still lost.

Russell did not do that.
  Agree with all of this!!

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2016, 11:53:19 AM »

Offline eja117

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.
again which team is better
Which team is better?

Team A
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
KC Jones
Tom Sanders
Frank Ramsey
Willie Naulls
Clyde Lovellette

Team B
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Guy Rodgers
Al Attles
Gary Phillips
Wayne Hightower
Gary Hill
George Lee
Whichever one has Bill Russell on it.

Specifically I say if you trade Bill for Wilt Bill's team gets better and Wilt's team gets worse.

Wilt played with tons of HOFers. The idea that he had no good teammates is a myth.

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2016, 12:05:10 PM »

Offline eja117

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Wiltís record against Russell: 58-84
Russellís record against Wilt: 84-58

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2016, 12:42:10 PM »

Offline Moranis

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.
again which team is better
Which team is better?

Team A
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
KC Jones
Tom Sanders
Frank Ramsey
Willie Naulls
Clyde Lovellette

Team B
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Guy Rodgers
Al Attles
Gary Phillips
Wayne Hightower
Gary Hill
George Lee
Whichever one has Bill Russell on it.

Specifically I say if you trade Bill for Wilt Bill's team gets better and Wilt's team gets worse.

Wilt played with tons of HOFers. The idea that he had no good teammates is a myth.
When Wilt had 2 other HOFers in their prime, Wilt had the greatest team in NBA history to that point and demolished the Celtics in the playoffs.
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2016, 01:44:36 PM »

Offline eja117

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.
again which team is better
Which team is better?

Team A
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
KC Jones
Tom Sanders
Frank Ramsey
Willie Naulls
Clyde Lovellette

Team B
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Guy Rodgers
Al Attles
Gary Phillips
Wayne Hightower
Gary Hill
George Lee
Whichever one has Bill Russell on it.

Specifically I say if you trade Bill for Wilt Bill's team gets better and Wilt's team gets worse.

Wilt played with tons of HOFers. The idea that he had no good teammates is a myth.
When Wilt had 2 other HOFers in their prime, Wilt had the greatest team in NBA history to that point and demolished the Celtics in the playoffs.
I assume that was when he finally started passing.

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2016, 02:07:18 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.
again which team is better
Which team is better?

Team A
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
KC Jones
Tom Sanders
Frank Ramsey
Willie Naulls
Clyde Lovellette

Team B
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Guy Rodgers
Al Attles
Gary Phillips
Wayne Hightower
Gary Hill
George Lee
Whichever one has Bill Russell on it.

Specifically I say if you trade Bill for Wilt Bill's team gets better and Wilt's team gets worse.

Wilt played with tons of HOFers. The idea that he had no good teammates is a myth.
When Wilt had 2 other HOFers in their prime, Wilt had the greatest team in NBA history to that point and demolished the Celtics in the playoffs.
I assume that was when he finally started passing.

Then that same team choked away a 3-1 series in the conference finals to the Celtics the very next year.   And we all know what happened with Wilt after that.  So I have no  real idea what the point that is trying to be made there.


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Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2016, 02:59:54 PM »

Offline Moranis

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.
again which team is better
Which team is better?

Team A
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
KC Jones
Tom Sanders
Frank Ramsey
Willie Naulls
Clyde Lovellette

Team B
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Guy Rodgers
Al Attles
Gary Phillips
Wayne Hightower
Gary Hill
George Lee
Whichever one has Bill Russell on it.

Specifically I say if you trade Bill for Wilt Bill's team gets better and Wilt's team gets worse.

Wilt played with tons of HOFers. The idea that he had no good teammates is a myth.
When Wilt had 2 other HOFers in their prime, Wilt had the greatest team in NBA history to that point and demolished the Celtics in the playoffs.
I assume that was when he finally started passing.

Then that same team choked away a 3-1 series in the conference finals to the Celtics the very next year.   And we all know what happened with Wilt after that.  So I have no  real idea what the point that is trying to be made there.
Funny I didn't see Billy Cunningham's stats in that series.  Oh you mean Cunningham was injured so it was just Wilt and Greer.  Hmmm.
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2016, 03:06:47 PM »

Offline Moranis

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.
again which team is better
Which team is better?

Team A
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
KC Jones
Tom Sanders
Frank Ramsey
Willie Naulls
Clyde Lovellette

Team B
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Guy Rodgers
Al Attles
Gary Phillips
Wayne Hightower
Gary Hill
George Lee
Whichever one has Bill Russell on it.

Specifically I say if you trade Bill for Wilt Bill's team gets better and Wilt's team gets worse.

Wilt played with tons of HOFers. The idea that he had no good teammates is a myth.
When Wilt had 2 other HOFers in their prime, Wilt had the greatest team in NBA history to that point and demolished the Celtics in the playoffs.
I assume that was when he finally started passing.
These are the assists per game for Wilt and Bill for their first 5 seasons.  I will let you figure out which one is which.

2.3, 1.9, 2.4, 3.4, 5.0
1.8, 2.9, 3.2, 3.7, 3.4

Wilt did what was asked of him.  His first few years his teams were so bad they needed him to score so he did.  When he was on better teams, his coaches asked him to pass more, so he did and in fact led the league one year.  He is the only player in history to have led the league in points, rebounds, and assists.
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2016, 03:19:56 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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When you read Wilt's bio it's mostly just a long list of reasons why he didn't win that much.
again which team is better
Which team is better?

Team A
John Havilcek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
KC Jones
Tom Sanders
Frank Ramsey
Willie Naulls
Clyde Lovellette

Team B
Nate Thurmond
Tom Meschery
Guy Rodgers
Al Attles
Gary Phillips
Wayne Hightower
Gary Hill
George Lee
Whichever one has Bill Russell on it.

Specifically I say if you trade Bill for Wilt Bill's team gets better and Wilt's team gets worse.

Wilt played with tons of HOFers. The idea that he had no good teammates is a myth.
When Wilt had 2 other HOFers in their prime, Wilt had the greatest team in NBA history to that point and demolished the Celtics in the playoffs.
I assume that was when he finally started passing.

Then that same team choked away a 3-1 series in the conference finals to the Celtics the very next year.   And we all know what happened with Wilt after that.  So I have no  real idea what the point that is trying to be made there.
Funny I didn't see Billy Cunningham's stats in that series.  Oh you mean Cunningham was injured so it was just Wilt and Greer.  Hmmm.

Edited. Forget it.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 09:05:56 PM by Donoghus »


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Re: All Time - Greatest Player in league from start to today
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2016, 03:28:04 PM »

Offline eja117

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I don't know if people are saying they weren't equal talents. I think people are saying they weren't equal players.

Isn't it true that in 1965 the Warriors tried to shop Wilt, so the owner of the Lakers had his players vote on it and they voted 9-2 against?