Author Topic: Luke Cage / Iron Fist / The Defenders  (Read 2918 times)

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Re: Luke Cage
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2017, 11:16:45 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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I think I'm about the only Marvel fan that didn't like Jessica Jones all that much.

I'd say:

Luke Cage
Daredevil I

Daredevil II


Jessica Jones

All have been somewhat uneven. The beginning half of Luke Cage was definitely better than the latter half. Daredevil II dragged when Punisher or Fisk wasn't on screen, but that season had incredible highs.

I haven't had time to watch Iron Fist yet, but the criticism that they cast a white character with a white actor doesn't concern me at all.

It was driving me nuts when people were saying Marvel was being racist and white washing the  casting. He's white in the comics, he's been that way since the 70's. It was during the Kung-Fu phase of pop culture.

If you really think about it, casting an Asian would have been more racist for some one who is a master of Fung-Fu than "white washing" the casting.

To me, Cage felt up and down felt like there did a lot of fillers in it. Jessica Jones was the same way, too slow at times, but love Tennant as Purple man. Didn't know how I'd feel about him playing the baddy after Doctor Who, but man he's good. Actually wanted him to voice Rocket in Guardians before Cooper got the gig.

They all have been good. DD has been the best, but he's the big character and I'm sure more goes into that show. Finally got a good Punisher. I like Iron Fist a lot, wish the fight scenes were a bit better, but it's harder to use a stunt double when you don't cover his face like they can in DD.

I can't wait for the Defenders, I'm hoping it's this fall and then have Punisher next spring. This way they can start staggering shows in fall and spring.

Re: Luke Cage
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2017, 11:16:58 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I think I'm about the only Marvel fan that didn't like Jessica Jones all that much.

I'd say:

Luke Cage
Daredevil I

Daredevil II


Jessica Jones

All have been somewhat uneven. The beginning half of Luke Cage was definitely better than the latter half. Daredevil II dragged when Punisher or Fisk wasn't on screen, but that season had incredible highs.

I haven't had time to watch Iron Fist yet, but the criticism that they cast a white character with a white actor doesn't concern me at all.
This is how I'd rank it too, with adding Iron Fist just above Jessica Jones. My issue isn't with the skin tone of Iron Fist, but rather that he's sort of whiney and annoying.
Jessica Jones is the most interesting character of the lot.

I would rate:

Jessica Jones
Daredevil 1

Luke Cage


Daredevil 2 = Iron Fist

I was really disappointed in Daredevil 2. The choreography was so good, everything else suffered. Daredevil was a whiny baby, which didn't fit his profile. Iron Fist, like Luke Cage, is highly stylized. While Cage is super cool, Danny is portrayed as being quite odd and socially inept. That fits him since he grew up in a monastery. The special effects when he would get mad were silly, but for me, that worked. It felt to me like they were purposefully being over the top and cheesy.

Disclaimer: I don't know anything about comics.

Re: Luke Cage
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2017, 11:20:37 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I think I'm about the only Marvel fan that didn't like Jessica Jones all that much.

I'd say:

Luke Cage
Daredevil I

Daredevil II


Jessica Jones

All have been somewhat uneven. The beginning half of Luke Cage was definitely better than the latter half. Daredevil II dragged when Punisher or Fisk wasn't on screen, but that season had incredible highs.

I haven't had time to watch Iron Fist yet, but the criticism that they cast a white character with a white actor doesn't concern me at all.

It was driving me nuts when people were saying Marvel was being racist and white washing the  casting. He's white in the comics, he's been that way since the 70's. It was during the Kung-Fu phase of pop culture.

If you really think about it, casting an Asian would have been more racist for some one who is a master of Fung-Fu than "white washing" the casting.

To me, Cage felt up and down felt like there did a lot of fillers in it. Jessica Jones was the same way, too slow at times, but love Tennant as Purple man. Didn't know how I'd feel about him playing the baddy after Doctor Who, but man he's good. Actually wanted him to voice Rocket in Guardians before Cooper got the gig.

They all have been good. DD has been the best, but he's the big character and I'm sure more goes into that show. Finally got a good Punisher. I like Iron Fist a lot, wish the fight scenes were a bit better, but it's harder to use a stunt double when you don't cover his face like they can in DD.

I can't wait for the Defenders, I'm hoping it's this fall and then have Punisher next spring. This way they can start staggering shows in fall and spring.
While I do not think casting a white guy was racist, the history of Marvel is racist, though no more racist than media or society in general. Comic characters are heavily skewed white. And when Marvel decided to get on board with the growing popularity of Kung Fu movies, instead of just having an Asian character, they wrote a white one. It may have been a necessary business move based on who would buy the comic. I really can't say. But racism in society doe not necessarily involve bigotry.

Re: Luke Cage
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2017, 11:40:12 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I think I'm about the only Marvel fan that didn't like Jessica Jones all that much.

I'd say:

Luke Cage
Daredevil I

Daredevil II


Jessica Jones

All have been somewhat uneven. The beginning half of Luke Cage was definitely better than the latter half. Daredevil II dragged when Punisher or Fisk wasn't on screen, but that season had incredible highs.

I haven't had time to watch Iron Fist yet, but the criticism that they cast a white character with a white actor doesn't concern me at all.

It was driving me nuts when people were saying Marvel was being racist and white washing the  casting. He's white in the comics, he's been that way since the 70's. It was during the Kung-Fu phase of pop culture.

If you really think about it, casting an Asian would have been more racist for some one who is a master of Fung-Fu than "white washing" the casting.

To me, Cage felt up and down felt like there did a lot of fillers in it. Jessica Jones was the same way, too slow at times, but love Tennant as Purple man. Didn't know how I'd feel about him playing the baddy after Doctor Who, but man he's good. Actually wanted him to voice Rocket in Guardians before Cooper got the gig.

They all have been good. DD has been the best, but he's the big character and I'm sure more goes into that show. Finally got a good Punisher. I like Iron Fist a lot, wish the fight scenes were a bit better, but it's harder to use a stunt double when you don't cover his face like they can in DD.

I can't wait for the Defenders, I'm hoping it's this fall and then have Punisher next spring. This way they can start staggering shows in fall and spring.

Yeah, the criticism of Marvel over racial issues is ridiculous. They turned Nick Fury from white to black for the movies, for Pete's sake. Most fans of any published work don't like the source material being messed with too much—in the case of Fury, I think Sam Jackson has been great, and he's a rare example of a major change working.

Marvel also changed Dr. Strange's the Ancient One from an Asian man to a white woman, which I thought was silly but surely won some points from the pro-diversity/let's-not-risk-offending-Asians crowd.
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Re: Luke Cage
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2017, 11:47:45 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I think I'm about the only Marvel fan that didn't like Jessica Jones all that much.

I'd say:

Luke Cage
Daredevil I

Daredevil II


Jessica Jones

All have been somewhat uneven. The beginning half of Luke Cage was definitely better than the latter half. Daredevil II dragged when Punisher or Fisk wasn't on screen, but that season had incredible highs.

I haven't had time to watch Iron Fist yet, but the criticism that they cast a white character with a white actor doesn't concern me at all.

It was driving me nuts when people were saying Marvel was being racist and white washing the  casting. He's white in the comics, he's been that way since the 70's. It was during the Kung-Fu phase of pop culture.

If you really think about it, casting an Asian would have been more racist for some one who is a master of Fung-Fu than "white washing" the casting.

To me, Cage felt up and down felt like there did a lot of fillers in it. Jessica Jones was the same way, too slow at times, but love Tennant as Purple man. Didn't know how I'd feel about him playing the baddy after Doctor Who, but man he's good. Actually wanted him to voice Rocket in Guardians before Cooper got the gig.

They all have been good. DD has been the best, but he's the big character and I'm sure more goes into that show. Finally got a good Punisher. I like Iron Fist a lot, wish the fight scenes were a bit better, but it's harder to use a stunt double when you don't cover his face like they can in DD.

I can't wait for the Defenders, I'm hoping it's this fall and then have Punisher next spring. This way they can start staggering shows in fall and spring.
While I do not think casting a white guy was racist, the history of Marvel is racist, though no more racist than media or society in general. Comic characters are heavily skewed white. And when Marvel decided to get on board with the growing popularity of Kung Fu movies, instead of just having an Asian character, they wrote a white one. It may have been a necessary business move based on who would buy the comic. I really can't say. But racism in society doe not necessarily involve bigotry.

Yet they changed the Ancient One from Asian to white in the Dr. Strange movie, allegedly to avoid offending Asians. So how can they win?

For most of Marvel's history, its comic books were created mostly, if not entirely, by white people, so of course most of the characters would be white. And if there had been a comic company at that time composed mostly of Asians, most of their characters would undoubtedly be Asian, because that would've been the primary experience of most Asians. Most people tend to write what they're familiar with, so most stuff written before the age of multiculturalism wouldn't be culturally diverse. That's not racist.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis


Re: Luke Cage / Iron Fist / The Defenders
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2017, 09:50:45 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I'm about 2/3 through Iron Fist right now.

I think most of the criticism is overblown.  It's a little slow in parts but I don't mind that. If anything, I'd have liked a little more fleshing out of some of the story.

But, the one criticism that I think is fair is that Finn Jones has no Kung fu skills, and it shows. He never once struck me as a martial arts master.  It's not all on Jones, though; the writers made Danny unfocused and undisciplined. If there's an explanation for that disconnect, it's not explained very well.


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Re: Luke Cage / Iron Fist / The Defenders
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2017, 10:39:00 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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The racial issue with Iron Fist originates in the 70s when they made the character - they're just being consistent with that now. Still an awkward look in modern times, especially with the standard "white guy parachutes into ancient, highly skilled society and becomes better than everyone who grew up there" trope.

More importantly, the show's not very good. Hokey and disjointed and Danny's not compelling as a character or as an action hero. And unlike Luke Cage none of the secondary actors are very strong either. I'm still watching it though  :D


Marvel also changed Dr. Strange's the Ancient One from an Asian man to a white woman, which I thought was silly but surely won some points from the pro-diversity/let's-not-risk-offending-Asians crowd.

This was specifically to allow the movie to be released in China - the original Ancient One was Tibetan and it was seen as very unlikely China would allow a movie with a major Tibetan character to be distributed there. With Chinese audiences making up an increasingly large portion of sales it was much more a business decision than a PC one.

Re: Luke Cage / Iron Fist / The Defenders
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2017, 10:45:16 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I gotta admit, the fight scenes in Iron Fist is a little, weird? I'll use the word weird. It's not as good as Daredevil's or Luke Cage, it looked sloppy to me.

Other than that, I thought it was a good show. I didn't really get the harsh criticism for it. It's certainly the weakest show out of the four, but I don't think it's a bad show at all.

I've also read reviews about how it's "racist"? Because Danny is a blonde, white kid? But he has always been a blonde, white kid... I didn't get that.
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Re: Luke Cage
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2017, 11:44:15 AM »

Offline MBunge

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I think I'm about the only Marvel fan that didn't like Jessica Jones all that much.

I'd say:

Luke Cage
Daredevil I

Daredevil II


Jessica Jones

All have been somewhat uneven. The beginning half of Luke Cage was definitely better than the latter half. Daredevil II dragged when Punisher or Fisk wasn't on screen, but that season had incredible highs.

I haven't had time to watch Iron Fist yet, but the criticism that they cast a white character with a white actor doesn't concern me at all.

It was driving me nuts when people were saying Marvel was being racist and white washing the  casting. He's white in the comics, he's been that way since the 70's. It was during the Kung-Fu phase of pop culture.

If you really think about it, casting an Asian would have been more racist for some one who is a master of Fung-Fu than "white washing" the casting.

To me, Cage felt up and down felt like there did a lot of fillers in it. Jessica Jones was the same way, too slow at times, but love Tennant as Purple man. Didn't know how I'd feel about him playing the baddy after Doctor Who, but man he's good. Actually wanted him to voice Rocket in Guardians before Cooper got the gig.

They all have been good. DD has been the best, but he's the big character and I'm sure more goes into that show. Finally got a good Punisher. I like Iron Fist a lot, wish the fight scenes were a bit better, but it's harder to use a stunt double when you don't cover his face like they can in DD.

I can't wait for the Defenders, I'm hoping it's this fall and then have Punisher next spring. This way they can start staggering shows in fall and spring.
While I do not think casting a white guy was racist, the history of Marvel is racist, though no more racist than media or society in general. Comic characters are heavily skewed white. And when Marvel decided to get on board with the growing popularity of Kung Fu movies, instead of just having an Asian character, they wrote a white one. It may have been a necessary business move based on who would buy the comic. I really can't say. But racism in society doe not necessarily involve bigotry.

Marvel also put out the spectacular "Master of Kung-Fu" with a Chinese hero, though colored VERY yellow-orangish, and another of their martial arts heroes, The White Tiger, was a Latino.

Flatly, there's nothing racist about the concept of Iron Fist unless there's also something racist about a story where a kid from Africa grows up to be a concert pianist.  The Iron Fist comic of the 70s was also executed in a pretty non-racist way by the standards of the time.  I haven't seen the TV show, so I can't comment on how it's presented.

Mike

Re: Luke Cage / Iron Fist / The Defenders
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2017, 12:03:21 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I'm about 2/3 through Iron Fist right now.

I think most of the criticism is overblown.  It's a little slow in parts but I don't mind that. If anything, I'd have liked a little more fleshing out of some of the story.

But, the one criticism that I think is fair is that Finn Jones has no Kung fu skills, and it shows. He never once struck me as a martial arts master.  It's not all on Jones, though; the writers made Danny unfocused and undisciplined. If there's an explanation for that disconnect, it's not explained very well.
I finished the whole thing and I agree that it wasn't as bad as the critics make it out to be.

However, I think the biggest reason it got killed is because it's easy to see the show's potential which makes it more frustrating that they didn't live up to it.

I had 0 interest in any of the Rand Corp stuff or any of the Meachem family. I'm assuming these characters become important in later seasons but it seems like they spent way too much time on characters that I really didn't care about. It is amazing to me that they spent so much time on that arch without devoting any story time on the lead up to the defenders forming.

As to the fight scenes, it seems like the filming was rushed so that they could get the show out on time and that is what made them less polished than they should be. Here is a quote from Finn on his martial arts training. Hopefully they will have him training hard until the next season comes out.

Quote
It was very intense to begin with. When I first moved over to New York, before I started actually filming, I had three weeks of very intense martial arts and weight training preparation. But then unfortunately once the show started, the filming schedule was just so tight – I was working 14 hours every day, six days a week, days into nights, nights into days – and actually my schedule didn’t allow me to continue the training as much as I really hoped.
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Re: Luke Cage / Iron Fist / The Defenders
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2017, 12:23:38 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I'm about 2/3 through Iron Fist right now.

I think most of the criticism is overblown.  It's a little slow in parts but I don't mind that. If anything, I'd have liked a little more fleshing out of some of the story.

But, the one criticism that I think is fair is that Finn Jones has no Kung fu skills, and it shows. He never once struck me as a martial arts master.  It's not all on Jones, though; the writers made Danny unfocused and undisciplined. If there's an explanation for that disconnect, it's not explained very well.
I finished the whole thing and I agree that it wasn't as bad as the critics make it out to be.

However, I think the biggest reason it got killed is because it's easy to see the show's potential which makes it more frustrating that they didn't live up to it.

I had 0 interest in any of the Rand Corp stuff or any of the Meachem family. I'm assuming these characters become important in later seasons but it seems like they spent way too much time on characters that I really didn't care about. It is amazing to me that they spent so much time on that arch without devoting any story time on the lead up to the defenders forming.

As to the fight scenes, it seems like the filming was rushed so that they could get the show out on time and that is what made them less polished than they should be. Here is a quote from Finn on his martial arts training. Hopefully they will have him training hard until the next season comes out.

Quote
It was very intense to begin with. When I first moved over to New York, before I started actually filming, I had three weeks of very intense martial arts and weight training preparation. But then unfortunately once the show started, the filming schedule was just so tight – I was working 14 hours every day, six days a week, days into nights, nights into days – and actually my schedule didn’t allow me to continue the training as much as I really hoped.

The Meachems are very important in the original origin story. It seems like it was changed pretty substantially.

I think Jones is probably right that he didn't have enough time. It's just striking see him the scenes here as opposed to authentic martial arts actors. It's hard to suspend belief for Finn Jones when you've seen Bruce Lee, and The Iron Fist should theoretically destroy Lee.

For Season 2, I'm hoping for Jackie Chan fight scenes with Jones' face CGIed in. Haha.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 12:29:55 PM by Roy H. »


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