Noel on Sixers having three centers: "It doesn't make any sense."

[MBunge]

They don't need to do anything.  Plenty of minutes to go around.  It's not ideal, but who cares.  That team isn't threatening for a championship this year.

Imagine a scenario where Thomas and Bradley keep playing excellent basketball.  Pretend Marcus Smart actually makes his leap and looks like a starter.  Now let's also pretend that Terry Rozier's Summer League was legit and he's everything we hope he can be.  Let's say Terry Rozier looks like a legit starting PG in the handful of minutes he gets.  How's he getting starting guard minutes on a team with Thomas, Bradley and Smart all playing excellent ball? 

Now, because Rozier's minutes are limited and teams know Boston is desperate to move one of their PGs, should Boston trade him for a early 2nd rounder just for the sake of trading him?  No, of course not.  That doesn't help the team.  Better off just having Rozier play his 5-10 minutes per night at PG than give him away for pennies on the dollar.   In that scenario, Boston just hangs onto him until someone makes a legit offer or they figure out a way to get equal value for Thomas or Smart. 

Once you understand that, you'll understand why 99% of this board his no idea what they are talking about in regards to Philly's big man situation.   They'll probably trade one of those guys eventually, but it makes the most sense to play out the season and see if someone's trade value increases to the point that someone makes them an acceptable offer.

Perhaps that's because Smart, Rozier, and Bradley can all effectively play two (or even three in Smart's case) positions, and Okafor, Noel, and Embiid are all pure 5's that can neither play the 4 nor play together.

Combine that with the fact that both Saric and Simmons are clearly 4's that simply can't play the 3 (though Simmons could play small-ball 5), let alone Covington that will also have time at the small-ball 4, and, no, there simply isn't enough minutes to go around, and keeping all of them is going to do nothing but start locker room issues (as we're seeing play out before our eyes) and lower their trade value even more by them either not getting sufficient minutes or having to play out of position with a poor fitting frontcourt mate.

Ah, that Sam Hinkie team-building logic, though!

Hinkie collected assets.  It remains to be seen how it fits together.  They have time to figure it out.  Embiid might be able to play PF.  Simmons might be able to play PG or SF.  They'll figure it out eventually.

This is a good lesson for us all.  This whole thing started because LarBrd had to take a contrarian viewpoint to prove how smart he is.  It's now wound up with him saying stuff that makes it seem like he doesn't understand basketball in the slightest.

Mike

[Moranis]

It's too bad that Noel doesn't understand the situation as well as a certain poster around here.  Then he'd know there was no problem at all.

Mike

He doesn't understand the situation at all obviously.  Otherwise he wouldn't have opened his mouth further diminishing his own trade value and making it more likely he gets stuck there. 

I'm beginning to think that Noel is just really dumb.  Like all time level dumb.

Or, he could be telling Philly to trade him NOW, no matter the return, or he'll Greg Monroe them next year.

Mike

And then Philly gets two more years of him, which doesn't seem like a bad deal for Philly.  If Noel really wanted out, he wouldn't crush his own value, because it makes it far less likely he is the guy that gets moved.

Classic Hinkie-think.  Yeah, keeping an unhappy lottery pick on the roster for two years when he's surrounded by other very young players couldn't possibly go wrong.

And try and understand this logic.  If Noel gets traded NOW, he gets an entire season with a new team to up the value of his next contract.  If he stays in Philly for this season, even if he gets traded at the deadline, his value will continue to decline.  Or the alternative, he wants one of the other bigs traded NOW.  Not at the trade deadline.  Not next offseason.  NOW.

It is in Noel's best interest to get something done as quickly as possible, so it makes perfect sense to try and up the pressure on Philly to do something as quickly as possible.  It's not like anyone has given him any reason to trust that his current management knows what the heck they are doing.

Mike

But it doesn't serve Philly's purpose if you destroy your value.  That is the point I'm making.  I understand fully why Noel would want out, but he is going about it the wrong way.

He doesn't care what Philly does or doesn't want.  He's also pretty clearly tired of waiting for Philly to do something.  He just wants out or he wants one or more of the other bigs gone.  Trying to up the pressure on Philly is a logical move.

Mike

It doesn't put pressure on Philly though and gives Philly incentive to let you ride the pine because you are being a distraction.  If you want out, you don't destroy your value.  If you want your team to play you, you don't become a distraction.  If you want to get paid, you shut up and do your job. 

Noel has thus made it more likely he stays in Philly and does so as the odd man out.  That is the exact opposite of what he wants. 

[MBunge]

It's too bad that Noel doesn't understand the situation as well as a certain poster around here.  Then he'd know there was no problem at all.

Mike

He doesn't understand the situation at all obviously.  Otherwise he wouldn't have opened his mouth further diminishing his own trade value and making it more likely he gets stuck there. 

I'm beginning to think that Noel is just really dumb.  Like all time level dumb.

Or, he could be telling Philly to trade him NOW, no matter the return, or he'll Greg Monroe them next year.

Mike

And then Philly gets two more years of him, which doesn't seem like a bad deal for Philly.  If Noel really wanted out, he wouldn't crush his own value, because it makes it far less likely he is the guy that gets moved.

Classic Hinkie-think.  Yeah, keeping an unhappy lottery pick on the roster for two years when he's surrounded by other very young players couldn't possibly go wrong.

And try and understand this logic.  If Noel gets traded NOW, he gets an entire season with a new team to up the value of his next contract.  If he stays in Philly for this season, even if he gets traded at the deadline, his value will continue to decline.  Or the alternative, he wants one of the other bigs traded NOW.  Not at the trade deadline.  Not next offseason.  NOW.

It is in Noel's best interest to get something done as quickly as possible, so it makes perfect sense to try and up the pressure on Philly to do something as quickly as possible.  It's not like anyone has given him any reason to trust that his current management knows what the heck they are doing.

Mike

But it doesn't serve Philly's purpose if you destroy your value.  That is the point I'm making.  I understand fully why Noel would want out, but he is going about it the wrong way.

He doesn't care what Philly does or doesn't want.  He's also pretty clearly tired of waiting for Philly to do something.  He just wants out or he wants one or more of the other bigs gone.  Trying to up the pressure on Philly is a logical move.

Mike

It doesn't put pressure on Philly though and gives Philly incentive to let you ride the pine because you are being a distraction.  If you want out, you don't destroy your value.  If you want your team to play you, you don't become a distraction.  If you want to get paid, you shut up and do your job. 

Noel has thus made it more likely he stays in Philly and does so as the odd man out.  That is the exact opposite of what he wants.

Noel's situation is not the same as yours or mine.  He is his own corporation, an independent business that is currently in partnership with the 76ers.  As you point out, the worst case scenario for him is to make several more millions to sit on the bench for two more years, then it's a guarantee that he'll get another contract that will pay him even more millions (baring injury).

Noel sees his opportunity to make even more than that damaged because Philly has failed to deal with an obvious problem for the team.  This problem has been staring them in the face since they drafted Okafor.  They've had an offseason, a full season and another offseason to do something about it and they've done NOTHING.  Philly is right now harming Noel's future earning potential.  They are costing him money.  And you think he should just continue to be a sheep and accept it?

And to suggest that sitting one of the foundational pieces of your rebuilding won't cause problems, you are fooling yourself and no one else.  Guys have forced their way off of teams for decades.

Mike

[walker834]

I think its more about building a team here and a cultuer and you have to look at the value of that draft pick and how valuable its going to be to us vs a guy like noel.  You also have to look at free agency and where that money is worth spendng.  IS it worth spending on noel or someone else?

It seems to me like people assume that nets pick and free agency michael jordan is going to be there. That isn't always the case.  It's good to be hopeful but we just drafted jaylen brown.  You also have to look at what we are building here and what we need.

I don't like selling ouselves short and my words are tempered because of that but we dont need kevin love necessarily or a guy like that.  Noel might be exactly what we need. His value s low because of his situation as well.

I dont think Noel is concerned with his value and money overly which is good too.  He more just wants to play and be on a good team and that says a lot about his character.

his value is low because of the situation there to some people which is kind of s illy.  I'm more looking at him as who he is as a player and how he fits us and what we need.  I'm not saying he is the guy or we should sell ourselves short there.

But I also wouldnt pass on him just because of some mystery player that might not be there.

I listed who is coming up in the next couple drafts. I also know who is gong to be a free agent.  I may be missing guys but Noel is a good option.

I wouldnt trade Smart for him. I like Rozier too. Nothing against him. I think he can be a very good player in ths league. I think he's talented. Could start for some teams.  So could Smart. But Smart fits us because of his defensive presence off the bench. Both guys could and I like both.  I'd keep smart though. I think he is a bull defensively and his long term potential is too high as he improves.

Rozier every time he steps on the court he's a very good player.  I've known that too since we drafted him.  He needs to play and with isaiah and smart here id be  more inclined to trade him.  We have jackson who is similar to rozier in ways.

I think Smart is too important to our defense. It is a tough call though.  I'm good waiting on smarts offense.  Rozier can do both though.

It's more about what is going to put us in the best position to win a championship going forward.
Tradnig that pick is tough.  But we have Isaiah, we have Bradley, We have Smart.  WE have Jaylen and Crowder and are going to have to extend these guys too and have money to do that.  We have Horford and KO.   WE have Yab and Zizic stashed. We have Green and Jackson

I think that's a core group that can win a championship with a missing piece or two.  Amir, Jerebko and guys like that would be somewhat expendable but i wouldnt necessarily trade them either because we need them this year and we have Zizic and Yab stashed.  I think other players are expendable if its a real upgrade but we also dont want to be trading for guys who are going to cut into Browns time. 

We could trade Crowder but we just drafted Brown.  Why do we need another guy like that? To cut into his time and development?

I agree you want talent and we dont want to sell ourselves short.  Noel is tricky that way.

[walker834]

If we were to trade for Noel we would still have cap space with Amir and Jerebko coming off the books next year and Zeller. We are going to have cap space regardless.  I dont think that's the issue overly either.  Obviously there is a ceiling there. We need to be able to resign our own players when their contracts are up too and have room to do that.

The hard cap and the soft cap is different. Cap room is what you can spend on free agents anyways. YOu can go over the cap as well to sign your own players but you have to pay a tax which I'd think the celtics want to remain a fiscalling responsible organization at least for now. They might do that eventually. 

But honestly we are going to have cap space whether we trade for noel or not.

Trading one of the nets picks for him is not the end of the world unless we are missing a certain player that may be very good here.  We'd still have cap space and other picks. 

[walker834]

Both Rozier and Smart give us options for Isaiah as well but Isaiah is the guy here for now as far as I'm concerned. 

Rozier is really good and I like him but not sure he is isaiah good or championship caliber starter like that. He could be one day. He does take it to the rim like a madman. He's really good.

He could be a starting pg on a fair amount of teams right now and do a good job.  So could smart though.

Smarts upside is too great to me.  I really like Rozier too. I think as smart improves his defense and leadership and complete game is too valuable.

I would not trade Smart from this team right now. It's too risky.  I also wouldnt trade for Noel unless it felt really right and I'm not 100 percent sure on that. For Rozier and the nets pick I'd think about it strongly though. Not for Smart.

[walker834]

If I list our options it's basically this though

Dennis Smith - we have isaiah
Josh jackson - we have brown
noel - good fit.  A lot of upside.  What we need as far as a shot blocker.  Questionable if he is the end all be all and that good.
anthony davis  - will he ever come available?  Will he even come here. are we gong to keep waiting on that?  Is giving up the nets pick going to cost us that? 
Harry Giles - nce prospect we could take.  Rangy pf more an offensve player though. We have KO and Horford and would be a questionable fit though.  Nice young talent.  Knee issues.
Kevin Love - Nice player.  Offensively. We have Ko and Horford.  Again he's not really doing anything those guys dont though and its a weird fit.
Hayward - Nice player.  We have brown. I doubt he leaves utah and comes here and how he fits here is really questionable.  We have brown and Crowder.  Utah has him and he seems to like it there. He's a free agent anyways and trading for noel wouldnt affect that

I'm sure there are other players but not necessarily better.  In 18 you have Deandre Ayton and Bamba but again are these guys even better than Noel? Okafor and Embiid.  I'm sure there are other players but who? Deandre Jordan? I dont trade for him just beacuse he's older than Noel and more known... I like Noel better.

People talk about value but it has to be taken in context.  Noel's value is supposedly low right now and he's available for that reason. He's available possibly.  That's the whole thing.

Value in and of itself is somewhat meaningless in context.   You have to be able to match that value with something. Also Noel is available possibly so his value is low? 

Are dennis smith and harry giles really that much better prospects than Noel? It seems pretty fair to me. Those guys are more offensively geared but Noel is a shotblocker and a center.

[walker834]

If I'm building this  I want Isaiah, Bradley and Smart as my guards. Crowder and Brown as my sf's.  Horford as my center. And KO off the bench as a stretch big man.  What we need is a stud shotblocker.

I'd pair a better shooter with smart off the bench.  Jackson and Green check.
I'd have depth in big men.  Yabusele and Zizic check.

I'd have 2 guys in the interm who can spell them as they develop. Jerebko and Amir check.

Mickey check. james young check.   Hunter check.  more depth.

Rozier is expendable and so are the nets picks.  It may not end up being that simple but that's one way of looking at it.

I'm not 100 percent sure myself and we might just be waiting for that to become more clear. We have time to do that.

If we are trusting our draft instincts and the players we've traded for and drafted too.  We traded for isaiah for him to be our pg.  we drafted smart and brown to be those guys for us. t raded for crowder and have been developing bradley and signed horford and drafted ko. 

We didnt make these moves to trade isaiah thomas.  It's for him to be the guy here.

We didnt sign Amir to be the guy here long term. He's a vet and potential depth.  Rozier was also a pick ainge made where he liked him and knew he could play but we had smart.

We drafted Brown and passed on other guys to be the guy here. Obviously that can change but I doubt it.

The assumption that we were going to package all these guys for Anthony Davis so we can be the pelicans is also a misnomer.

I would think strongly about trading next years nets pick and Rozier for Noel.  I would keep the 18 pick and the cap space we have.  I would have some concern about selling ourselves short on that. I think we are close to the point where we can make moves like this though.

[walker834]

james young and hunter are still developing. So is Jackson.   I'm more trusting the process vs saying James young sucks too.  Those guys make rozier expendable in ways if we trust all the hard work that has gone into this. Their value may be lower but Rozier has some and so does next years pick.

I think Amir and Jerebko and Zeller are expendable for the same reasons but different.  We have Yabusele and Zizic and Nader and Mickey. It might take them some time.  Those guys can open up cap space for us ultimately too.

Keep Smart. Keep Brown and Isaiah and Bradley and KO and Horford and Crowder and those guys.

Noels value is low because of his situation. So was Crowder and Isaiah. 

The last few drafts were overhyped but better than next years in ways.  I feel like Ainge has the value of next years pick so high right now. Noel has been in the league 3 years was the 6th pick in a strong draft and is in a bad situation.

Next years nets pick and Rozier seems fair and could actually get someone to bite and actually happen where a move is actually made.  And we keep smart.

This mindset that everyone is tradeable etc may be true in some way but to make deals happen and we are trying to build a team here ultimately.

These guys arent just assets where we are going to trade them all for Anthony Davis.  We could but it still has to make sense in context. I don't want to be the pelicans.

Noel coming here barring injury he keeps his value.  He also makes us a better team. We'd still have cap space and the 18 pick.  You have to give up something.  A deal isnt going to necessarily happen with throwing later picks and rozier at him.  He's a free agent next year but it's getting to the point where making a move isn't a bad idea. There's no guarantee he comes here.

To get him here it would take next years nets pick and rozier. I think that's fair and where Philly would do it and should as well.

[LarBrd33]

They don't need to do anything.  Plenty of minutes to go around.  It's not ideal, but who cares.  That team isn't threatening for a championship this year.

Imagine a scenario where Thomas and Bradley keep playing excellent basketball.  Pretend Marcus Smart actually makes his leap and looks like a starter.  Now let's also pretend that Terry Rozier's Summer League was legit and he's everything we hope he can be.  Let's say Terry Rozier looks like a legit starting PG in the handful of minutes he gets.  How's he getting starting guard minutes on a team with Thomas, Bradley and Smart all playing excellent ball? 

Now, because Rozier's minutes are limited and teams know Boston is desperate to move one of their PGs, should Boston trade him for a early 2nd rounder just for the sake of trading him?  No, of course not.  That doesn't help the team.  Better off just having Rozier play his 5-10 minutes per night at PG than give him away for pennies on the dollar.   In that scenario, Boston just hangs onto him until someone makes a legit offer or they figure out a way to get equal value for Thomas or Smart. 

Once you understand that, you'll understand why 99% of this board his no idea what they are talking about in regards to Philly's big man situation.   They'll probably trade one of those guys eventually, but it makes the most sense to play out the season and see if someone's trade value increases to the point that someone makes them an acceptable offer.

Perhaps that's because Smart, Rozier, and Bradley can all effectively play two (or even three in Smart's case) positions, and Okafor, Noel, and Embiid are all pure 5's that can neither play the 4 nor play together.

Combine that with the fact that both Saric and Simmons are clearly 4's that simply can't play the 3 (though Simmons could play small-ball 5), let alone Covington that will also have time at the small-ball 4, and, no, there simply isn't enough minutes to go around, and keeping all of them is going to do nothing but start locker room issues (as we're seeing play out before our eyes) and lower their trade value even more by them either not getting sufficient minutes or having to play out of position with a poor fitting frontcourt mate.

Ah, that Sam Hinkie team-building logic, though!

Hinkie collected assets.  It remains to be seen how it fits together.  They have time to figure it out.  Embiid might be able to play PF.  Simmons might be able to play PG or SF.  They'll figure it out eventually.

This is a good lesson for us all.  This whole thing started because LarBrd had to take a contrarian viewpoint to prove how smart he is.  It's now wound up with him saying stuff that makes it seem like he doesn't understand basketball in the slightest.

Mike

Sounds like you don't trust the process

[LarBrd33]

Tp walker

[walker834]

Speaking of trusting the process we could package Amir and Zeller and both nets picks for a max pla yer and michael jordan but that player has to exist and fit into what we are trying to do and a team has to want to do that and that player has to be available.  Not to sound like Rick Pitino but true.

We could make a deal like that but I more see their contracts falling off where we give other guys opportunity and have cap space for other things right now.

[D Dub]

If I list our options it's basically this though

Dennis Smith - we have isaiah
Josh jackson - we have brown
noel - good fit.  A lot of upside.  What we need as far as a shot blocker.  Questionable if he is the end all be all and that good.
anthony davis  - will he ever come available?  Will he even come here. are we gong to keep waiting on that?  Is giving up the nets pick going to cost us that? 
Harry Giles - nce prospect we could take.  Rangy pf more an offensve player though. We have KO and Horford and would be a questionable fit though.  Nice young talent.  Knee issues.
Kevin Love - Nice player.  Offensively. We have Ko and Horford.  Again he's not really doing anything those guys dont though and its a weird fit.
Hayward - Nice player.  We have brown. I doubt he leaves utah and comes here and how he fits here is really questionable.  We have brown and Crowder.  Utah has him and he seems to like it there. He's a free agent anyways and trading for noel wouldnt affect that

I'm sure there are other players but not necessarily better.  In 18 you have Deandre Ayton and Bamba but again are these guys even better than Noel? Okafor and Embiid.  I'm sure there are other players but who? Deandre Jordan? I dont trade for him just beacuse he's older than Noel and more known... I like Noel better.

People talk about value but it has to be taken in context.  Noel's value is supposedly low right now and he's available for that reason. He's available possibly.  That's the whole thing.

Value in and of itself is somewhat meaningless in context.   You have to be able to match that value with something. Also Noel is available possibly so his value is low? 

Are dennis smith and harry giles really that much better prospects than Noel? It seems pretty fair to me. Those guys are more offensively geared but Noel is a shotblocker and a center.

fair points, walker.  that said, you have to recognize that value is a two way street. 

fact is, that 2017 Nets pick has never been more valuable.  no one thinks the Net's will any good whatsoever next year.  in fact, most major outlets are predicting them to finish with the leagues worst record.

as much as I like Noel, and think he's a nice add to a defense-first team like Boston, I'm not trading a potential #1 overall pick for him. 

he's just not the piece that puts us over the top. 
especially with us signing Horford, we are in a good position to see what we have. 

don't forget, if Philly is successful with their rebuild --- it'll happen in parallel with our own rise to prominence.  giving them a #1 to go along with Simmons, et al could make all our rebuilding efforts moot if we end up helping them build another super team. 

no thanks, not helping Philly.  no need.  we are already a 50 win team & it's clear we aren't winning the chip this year or next -- so why press for a risky trade at this moment when we're clearly better off playing the long game? 

[LarBrd33]

I think the biggest bit of confusion people have about the Philly situation is thinking their big man log jam is purely a negative thing.   It's a problem, but it's a nice problem to have.  I wouldn't mind having three star prospect point guards, for instance.  We have one in Thomas.  Smart hopefully makes a leap into that territory this year.  Rozier is a big unknown but perhaps he gets there as well.  If all three were good, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.   

[MBunge]

They don't need to do anything.  Plenty of minutes to go around.  It's not ideal, but who cares.  That team isn't threatening for a championship this year.

Imagine a scenario where Thomas and Bradley keep playing excellent basketball.  Pretend Marcus Smart actually makes his leap and looks like a starter.  Now let's also pretend that Terry Rozier's Summer League was legit and he's everything we hope he can be.  Let's say Terry Rozier looks like a legit starting PG in the handful of minutes he gets.  How's he getting starting guard minutes on a team with Thomas, Bradley and Smart all playing excellent ball? 

Now, because Rozier's minutes are limited and teams know Boston is desperate to move one of their PGs, should Boston trade him for a early 2nd rounder just for the sake of trading him?  No, of course not.  That doesn't help the team.  Better off just having Rozier play his 5-10 minutes per night at PG than give him away for pennies on the dollar.   In that scenario, Boston just hangs onto him until someone makes a legit offer or they figure out a way to get equal value for Thomas or Smart. 

Once you understand that, you'll understand why 99% of this board his no idea what they are talking about in regards to Philly's big man situation.   They'll probably trade one of those guys eventually, but it makes the most sense to play out the season and see if someone's trade value increases to the point that someone makes them an acceptable offer.

Perhaps that's because Smart, Rozier, and Bradley can all effectively play two (or even three in Smart's case) positions, and Okafor, Noel, and Embiid are all pure 5's that can neither play the 4 nor play together.

Combine that with the fact that both Saric and Simmons are clearly 4's that simply can't play the 3 (though Simmons could play small-ball 5), let alone Covington that will also have time at the small-ball 4, and, no, there simply isn't enough minutes to go around, and keeping all of them is going to do nothing but start locker room issues (as we're seeing play out before our eyes) and lower their trade value even more by them either not getting sufficient minutes or having to play out of position with a poor fitting frontcourt mate.

Ah, that Sam Hinkie team-building logic, though!

Hinkie collected assets.  It remains to be seen how it fits together.  They have time to figure it out.  Embiid might be able to play PF.  Simmons might be able to play PG or SF.  They'll figure it out eventually.

This is a good lesson for us all.  This whole thing started because LarBrd had to take a contrarian viewpoint to prove how smart he is.  It's now wound up with him saying stuff that makes it seem like he doesn't understand basketball in the slightest.

Mike

Sounds like you don't trust the process

If it makes people say things like "Simmons might play PG" when he didn't even play it in college and could barely defend against college bigs, no one should trust it.

Could Philly wind up running a lot of their offense through Simmons?  Sure, much like the Kings did through Chris Webber back in the day.  If anyone at the Kings had suggested playing Webber at point, however, they would have been shot out of a cannon into the Pacific Ocean.

Mike