Author Topic: Are we retiring #5 ??  (Read 9576 times)

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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2016, 12:35:29 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I agree with that.  We don't have to retire ray or rondo or perk.  It does depend on what you define as someone deserving of being in the rafters.  I think KG deserves that. If parish does why not KG? It needs to be defined in ways who does and who doesn't.  Most guys up there are career celtics and the nba is different now.  I think those standards should still stand in ways though.

KG redefined what it is to be a celtic deserving who belongs in the rafters in ways. Bill walton isn't up there though.

Maybe that needs to be redefined in KG's situation. He was really the face of that team that won in 08 even over pierce. Getting KG was what that was all about.
Parish played for the Celtics for 14 seasons, winning 3 titles. The rest of his career he played 7 seasons, starting 41 games.

Kevin Garnett played for the Celtics for 6 years, won 1 title, and the rest of his career he played for 16 seasons including 14 with the Timberwolves where he won an MVP award and started over 930 games.

This is why KG is different from Parish. I go back and forth on whether or not he should be retired largely based on the history of the Celtics. This franchise is the greatest franchise in the NBA. Is winning 1 title enough to put two numbers in the rafters? Does rescuing the franchise from a 22 year spell of mediocrity grant that title more significance?

You dont want to be a prisoner of the moment. KG is one of the most important Celtics since Larry Bird retired, but does his impact and resume matchup when you stretch your memory back a few more decades.

Ultimately, as a 20 year old, who has no real right to comment on the history of the Celtics, I say we should find a way to get him in the rafters one way or another.

Not only did he rescue us from the throes of mediocrity and completely change the culture and mindset of the team, leading us to a championship and on many amazing runs, but his intensity and heart and old school mentality to me are symbols of everything you want in a Celtic. If the letters "KG" are put in the rafters, I think it would be appropriate. When the Jaylen Browns and Harry Giles's of the world walk into the Garden I want them to look up in the rafters and see those letters and understand what how much this city and organization values the the things those two letters bring to mind.

When I think of KG I think of him diving on the floor for balls, smacking his head, pounding his own chest and talking himself to a mad man, I think of the emotion he showed after winning a title.

I want every player we bring in, to be reminded of those things the first time they step in the garden.
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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2016, 12:55:10 AM »

Offline walker834

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It was about getting a championship getting KG and I should rephrase that.   I agree he should be up there in ways.  He is a big part of our history.  Maybe not Ray Allen but KG should for the reasons you stated.  Tp.  I agree. If Brady can have a banner at Gilette when he's gone for 4 weeks.  KG should have one here when he's retired.  Brady deserves a statue probably like Russell and Red here in Boston. I don't think KG deserves a statue.  He does deserve  a banner.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 01:00:19 AM by walker834 »

Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2016, 12:56:10 AM »

Offline nostar

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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2016, 01:02:55 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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No ones touched it since he left. I think it's already essentially a done deal.

well, no one has touched ray allen's 20 either, do you think its a done deal that we are retiring his number too?

Personally, I'd be fine with Ray's number being retired - even if I'm not the biggest fan of him after the whole Miami drama.

Fact is that is that if Ray never came here then KG never would have come here, and if KG never came then Pierce never would have gotten his ring.

That Celtics team was one of the most dominant teams in NBA history (especially defensively) that that was largely due to:

1) How well that games of Pierce, Ray and Kevin complemented each other

2) Those guys showing the willingness to sacrifice their own individual numbers and accolades in order to build a championship team

People often overlook Ray, but he was a 25 PPG - 26 PPG scorer in Seattle before being traded to Boston.  He was every bit as dominant a scorer as Pierce and KG were, and you could argue that he sacrificed the most (out of those three guys) when he came to Boston.

I think all three guys deserve to have their numbers retired, and I'd love to see those jerseys up their in the rafters sitting right next to each other:

 |#34| |#20| | #5|


Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2016, 01:29:39 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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No ones touched it since he left. I think it's already essentially a done deal.

well, no one has touched ray allen's 20 either, do you think its a done deal that we are retiring his number too?

Personally, I'd be fine with Ray's number being retired - even if I'm not the biggest fan of him after the whole Miami drama.

Fact is that is that if Ray never came here then KG never would have come here, and if KG never came then Pierce never would have gotten his ring.

That Celtics team was one of the most dominant teams in NBA history (especially defensively) that that was largely due to:

1) How well that games of Pierce, Ray and Kevin complemented each other

2) Those guys showing the willingness to sacrifice their own individual numbers and accolades in order to build a championship team

People often overlook Ray, but he was a 25 PPG - 26 PPG scorer in Seattle before being traded to Boston.  He was every bit as dominant a scorer as Pierce and KG were, and you could argue that he sacrificed the most (out of those three guys) when he came to Boston.

I think all three guys deserve to have their numbers retired, and I'd love to see those jerseys up their in the rafters sitting right next to each other:

 |#34| |#20| | #5|
disagree. If you only play for 5 years and only bring in 1 ring and are clearly the 3rd best/most important player on that team, then you need to bring something extra (like KG did with his intensity leadership and loyalty). Ray Allen did not bring that to the table.

For me the convo ended when he took less money to go to a rival.

Neither the Celtics organization nor the fans have a right to expect any real loyalty or an emotional connection between a player and the city/team. Ray had every right to leave. When in Boston he did his job and did it exceptionally well. However, we do have a right to demand more of the numbers hanging in the rafters. Ray announced that he didnt really care about the city or the team when he went to Miami. No one who doesnt really give a [dang] about the team or the city should be raised to the rafters expecially when their resume is as shaky as Ray Allens.

Terrific player, will always respect him and the way he conducted himself, but there is no emotional connection between him and the city and team. Those numbers should mean something. They should invoke emotion.
Quote from: George W. Bush
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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2016, 07:10:24 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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No ones touched it since he left. I think it's already essentially a done deal.

well, no one has touched ray allen's 20 either, do you think its a done deal that we are retiring his number too?

Personally, I'd be fine with Ray's number being retired - even if I'm not the biggest fan of him after the whole Miami drama.

Fact is that is that if Ray never came here then KG never would have come here, and if KG never came then Pierce never would have gotten his ring.

That Celtics team was one of the most dominant teams in NBA history (especially defensively) that that was largely due to:

1) How well that games of Pierce, Ray and Kevin complemented each other

2) Those guys showing the willingness to sacrifice their own individual numbers and accolades in order to build a championship team

People often overlook Ray, but he was a 25 PPG - 26 PPG scorer in Seattle before being traded to Boston.  He was every bit as dominant a scorer as Pierce and KG were, and you could argue that he sacrificed the most (out of those three guys) when he came to Boston.

I think all three guys deserve to have their numbers retired, and I'd love to see those jerseys up their in the rafters sitting right next to each other:

 |#34| |#20| | #5|
disagree. If you only play for 5 years and only bring in 1 ring and are clearly the 3rd best/most important player on that team, then you need to bring something extra (like KG did with his intensity leadership and loyalty). Ray Allen did not bring that to the table.

For me the convo ended when he took less money to go to a rival.

Neither the Celtics organization nor the fans have a right to expect any real loyalty or an emotional connection between a player and the city/team. Ray had every right to leave. When in Boston he did his job and did it exceptionally well. However, we do have a right to demand more of the numbers hanging in the rafters. Ray announced that he didnt really care about the city or the team when he went to Miami. No one who doesnt really give a [dang] about the team or the city should be raised to the rafters expecially when their resume is as shaky as Ray Allens.

Terrific player, will always respect him and the way he conducted himself, but there is no emotional connection between him and the city and team. Those numbers should mean something. They should invoke emotion.
TP.  I have to admit I'm still bitter about how things ended with Allen.

Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2016, 07:27:28 AM »

Offline Granath

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No ones touched it since he left. I think it's already essentially a done deal.

well, no one has touched ray allen's 20 either, do you think its a done deal that we are retiring his number too?

Personally, I'd be fine with Ray's number being retired - even if I'm not the biggest fan of him after the whole Miami drama.

Fact is that is that if Ray never came here then KG never would have come here, and if KG never came then Pierce never would have gotten his ring.

That Celtics team was one of the most dominant teams in NBA history (especially defensively) that that was largely due to:

1) How well that games of Pierce, Ray and Kevin complemented each other

2) Those guys showing the willingness to sacrifice their own individual numbers and accolades in order to build a championship team

People often overlook Ray, but he was a 25 PPG - 26 PPG scorer in Seattle before being traded to Boston.  He was every bit as dominant a scorer as Pierce and KG were, and you could argue that he sacrificed the most (out of those three guys) when he came to Boston.

I think all three guys deserve to have their numbers retired, and I'd love to see those jerseys up their in the rafters sitting right next to each other:

 |#34| |#20| | #5|
disagree. If you only play for 5 years and only bring in 1 ring and are clearly the 3rd best/most important player on that team, then you need to bring something extra (like KG did with his intensity leadership and loyalty). Ray Allen did not bring that to the table.

For me the convo ended when he took less money to go to a rival.

Neither the Celtics organization nor the fans have a right to expect any real loyalty or an emotional connection between a player and the city/team. Ray had every right to leave. When in Boston he did his job and did it exceptionally well. However, we do have a right to demand more of the numbers hanging in the rafters. Ray announced that he didnt really care about the city or the team when he went to Miami. No one who doesnt really give a [dang] about the team or the city should be raised to the rafters expecially when their resume is as shaky as Ray Allens.

Terrific player, will always respect him and the way he conducted himself, but there is no emotional connection between him and the city and team. Those numbers should mean something. They should invoke emotion.

I think this is spot-on. TP.

Allen played well and helped space the team but he wasn't integral in the defining of those Celtics teams. He wasn't a defensive force. He wasn't the go-to scorer. He provided consistent scoring and offensive spacing while the Cs covered his defensive deficiencies.

I agree with Ilikesports - if the Cs are going to retire a number after 5 years, you have to bring something special to the table. KG brought a different attitude, a work ethic and a defensive presence that was so incredible it transformed the team. He brought enough that Bill Russell said he'd give KG one of his rings if KG didn't win a championship. KG was special in that there probably wasn't another player in the NBA who could have performed the same magic as he did. He was irreplaceable. Allen wasn't.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2016, 09:13:54 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I've said it before in numerous threads, but the Celtics have way too many numbers retired and it cheapens it for the people that actually deserve it.

KG will join that list, but should not have his number retired.  He just didn't play enough years in Boston to deserve that honor. 
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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2016, 10:22:53 AM »

Offline LilRip

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I love KG and I've gone back and forth on whether he should be retired. My heart says yes, but my mind says think about it.

KG's #21 getting retired in Minny is an absolute no-brainer the same way Pierce's #34 is a no brainer here. The championship was epic, but it's really the longevity that gnaws at me. KG wasn't here for very long, in the grand scheme of things. But then again, the way he transformed and revitalized the franchise was indeed magical. I think on those merits (plus the championship), #5 should likely be in the rafters.
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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2016, 11:03:10 AM »

Offline Moranis

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No ones touched it since he left. I think it's already essentially a done deal.

well, no one has touched ray allen's 20 either, do you think its a done deal that we are retiring his number too?

Personally, I'd be fine with Ray's number being retired - even if I'm not the biggest fan of him after the whole Miami drama.

Fact is that is that if Ray never came here then KG never would have come here, and if KG never came then Pierce never would have gotten his ring.

That Celtics team was one of the most dominant teams in NBA history (especially defensively) that that was largely due to:

1) How well that games of Pierce, Ray and Kevin complemented each other

2) Those guys showing the willingness to sacrifice their own individual numbers and accolades in order to build a championship team

People often overlook Ray, but he was a 25 PPG - 26 PPG scorer in Seattle before being traded to Boston.  He was every bit as dominant a scorer as Pierce and KG were, and you could argue that he sacrificed the most (out of those three guys) when he came to Boston.

I think all three guys deserve to have their numbers retired, and I'd love to see those jerseys up their in the rafters sitting right next to each other:

 |#34| |#20| | #5|
disagree. If you only play for 5 years and only bring in 1 ring and are clearly the 3rd best/most important player on that team, then you need to bring something extra (like KG did with his intensity leadership and loyalty). Ray Allen did not bring that to the table.

For me the convo ended when he took less money to go to a rival.

Neither the Celtics organization nor the fans have a right to expect any real loyalty or an emotional connection between a player and the city/team. Ray had every right to leave. When in Boston he did his job and did it exceptionally well. However, we do have a right to demand more of the numbers hanging in the rafters. Ray announced that he didnt really care about the city or the team when he went to Miami. No one who doesnt really give a [dang] about the team or the city should be raised to the rafters expecially when their resume is as shaky as Ray Allens.

Terrific player, will always respect him and the way he conducted himself, but there is no emotional connection between him and the city and team. Those numbers should mean something. They should invoke emotion.
How do you know it wasn't Ray that was responsible for the culture shift?  Wasn't Ray the guy that went to the bench to make room for Bradley?  I mean that seems like a guy willing to do what was necessary.  And loyalty works both ways, Ray not only willingly went to the bench but was constantly in trade rumors and was actually told at one point he was traded, before the other team backed out.   

Before the big 3, Allen and Pierce had each won 3 playoff series, Garnett only had won 2.  Allen  had far greater success since leaving Boston as well.  It is entirely possible that Ray Allen was the real reason that Boston was winning.  After all, Allen and Garnett joined in the same season and the one year KG was here, Allen wasn't, Boston lost in the 1st round and Allen was winning a NBA championship (which he followed up with a Finals appearance).
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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2016, 11:10:57 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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No ones touched it since he left. I think it's already essentially a done deal.

well, no one has touched ray allen's 20 either, do you think its a done deal that we are retiring his number too?

Personally, I'd be fine with Ray's number being retired - even if I'm not the biggest fan of him after the whole Miami drama.

Fact is that is that if Ray never came here then KG never would have come here, and if KG never came then Pierce never would have gotten his ring.

That Celtics team was one of the most dominant teams in NBA history (especially defensively) that that was largely due to:

1) How well that games of Pierce, Ray and Kevin complemented each other

2) Those guys showing the willingness to sacrifice their own individual numbers and accolades in order to build a championship team

People often overlook Ray, but he was a 25 PPG - 26 PPG scorer in Seattle before being traded to Boston.  He was every bit as dominant a scorer as Pierce and KG were, and you could argue that he sacrificed the most (out of those three guys) when he came to Boston.

I think all three guys deserve to have their numbers retired, and I'd love to see those jerseys up their in the rafters sitting right next to each other:

 |#34| |#20| | #5|
disagree. If you only play for 5 years and only bring in 1 ring and are clearly the 3rd best/most important player on that team, then you need to bring something extra (like KG did with his intensity leadership and loyalty). Ray Allen did not bring that to the table.

For me the convo ended when he took less money to go to a rival.

Neither the Celtics organization nor the fans have a right to expect any real loyalty or an emotional connection between a player and the city/team. Ray had every right to leave. When in Boston he did his job and did it exceptionally well. However, we do have a right to demand more of the numbers hanging in the rafters. Ray announced that he didnt really care about the city or the team when he went to Miami. No one who doesnt really give a [dang] about the team or the city should be raised to the rafters expecially when their resume is as shaky as Ray Allens.

Terrific player, will always respect him and the way he conducted himself, but there is no emotional connection between him and the city and team. Those numbers should mean something. They should invoke emotion.
How do you know it wasn't Ray that was responsible for the culture shift?  Wasn't Ray the guy that went to the bench to make room for Bradley?  I mean that seems like a guy willing to do what was necessary.  And loyalty works both ways, Ray not only willingly went to the bench but was constantly in trade rumors and was actually told at one point he was traded, before the other team backed out.   

Before the big 3, Allen and Pierce had each won 3 playoff series, Garnett only had won 2.  Allen  had far greater success since leaving Boston as well.  It is entirely possible that Ray Allen was the real reason that Boston was winning.  After all, Allen and Garnett joined in the same season and the one year KG was here, Allen wasn't, Boston lost in the 1st round and Allen was winning a NBA championship (which he followed up with a Finals appearance).
Obviously there's no way to know who really caused the culture shift, but I've heard doc Paul and Danny all wax poetic about the culture shift KG brought and haven't heard that type of testimony about Ray.
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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2016, 11:12:22 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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No ones touched it since he left. I think it's already essentially a done deal.

well, no one has touched ray allen's 20 either, do you think its a done deal that we are retiring his number too?

Personally, I'd be fine with Ray's number being retired - even if I'm not the biggest fan of him after the whole Miami drama.

Fact is that is that if Ray never came here then KG never would have come here, and if KG never came then Pierce never would have gotten his ring.

That Celtics team was one of the most dominant teams in NBA history (especially defensively) that that was largely due to:

1) How well that games of Pierce, Ray and Kevin complemented each other

2) Those guys showing the willingness to sacrifice their own individual numbers and accolades in order to build a championship team

People often overlook Ray, but he was a 25 PPG - 26 PPG scorer in Seattle before being traded to Boston.  He was every bit as dominant a scorer as Pierce and KG were, and you could argue that he sacrificed the most (out of those three guys) when he came to Boston.

I think all three guys deserve to have their numbers retired, and I'd love to see those jerseys up their in the rafters sitting right next to each other:

 |#34| |#20| | #5|
disagree. If you only play for 5 years and only bring in 1 ring and are clearly the 3rd best/most important player on that team, then you need to bring something extra (like KG did with his intensity leadership and loyalty). Ray Allen did not bring that to the table.

For me the convo ended when he took less money to go to a rival.

Neither the Celtics organization nor the fans have a right to expect any real loyalty or an emotional connection between a player and the city/team. Ray had every right to leave. When in Boston he did his job and did it exceptionally well. However, we do have a right to demand more of the numbers hanging in the rafters. Ray announced that he didnt really care about the city or the team when he went to Miami. No one who doesnt really give a [dang] about the team or the city should be raised to the rafters expecially when their resume is as shaky as Ray Allens.

Terrific player, will always respect him and the way he conducted himself, but there is no emotional connection between him and the city and team. Those numbers should mean something. They should invoke emotion.
How do you know it wasn't Ray that was responsible for the culture shift?  Wasn't Ray the guy that went to the bench to make room for Bradley?  I mean that seems like a guy willing to do what was necessary.  And loyalty works both ways, Ray not only willingly went to the bench but was constantly in trade rumors and was actually told at one point he was traded, before the other team backed out.   

Before the big 3, Allen and Pierce had each won 3 playoff series, Garnett only had won 2.  Allen  had far greater success since leaving Boston as well.  It is entirely possible that Ray Allen was the real reason that Boston was winning.  After all, Allen and Garnett joined in the same season and the one year KG was here, Allen wasn't, Boston lost in the 1st round and Allen was winning a NBA championship (which he followed up with a Finals appearance).

I'm pretty sure he got butthurt once Avery replaced him. That was a factor in his departure.

I agree though regarding the trade talks.
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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2016, 11:39:24 AM »

Offline Moranis

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No ones touched it since he left. I think it's already essentially a done deal.

well, no one has touched ray allen's 20 either, do you think its a done deal that we are retiring his number too?

Personally, I'd be fine with Ray's number being retired - even if I'm not the biggest fan of him after the whole Miami drama.

Fact is that is that if Ray never came here then KG never would have come here, and if KG never came then Pierce never would have gotten his ring.

That Celtics team was one of the most dominant teams in NBA history (especially defensively) that that was largely due to:

1) How well that games of Pierce, Ray and Kevin complemented each other

2) Those guys showing the willingness to sacrifice their own individual numbers and accolades in order to build a championship team

People often overlook Ray, but he was a 25 PPG - 26 PPG scorer in Seattle before being traded to Boston.  He was every bit as dominant a scorer as Pierce and KG were, and you could argue that he sacrificed the most (out of those three guys) when he came to Boston.

I think all three guys deserve to have their numbers retired, and I'd love to see those jerseys up their in the rafters sitting right next to each other:

 |#34| |#20| | #5|
disagree. If you only play for 5 years and only bring in 1 ring and are clearly the 3rd best/most important player on that team, then you need to bring something extra (like KG did with his intensity leadership and loyalty). Ray Allen did not bring that to the table.

For me the convo ended when he took less money to go to a rival.

Neither the Celtics organization nor the fans have a right to expect any real loyalty or an emotional connection between a player and the city/team. Ray had every right to leave. When in Boston he did his job and did it exceptionally well. However, we do have a right to demand more of the numbers hanging in the rafters. Ray announced that he didnt really care about the city or the team when he went to Miami. No one who doesnt really give a [dang] about the team or the city should be raised to the rafters expecially when their resume is as shaky as Ray Allens.

Terrific player, will always respect him and the way he conducted himself, but there is no emotional connection between him and the city and team. Those numbers should mean something. They should invoke emotion.
How do you know it wasn't Ray that was responsible for the culture shift?  Wasn't Ray the guy that went to the bench to make room for Bradley?  I mean that seems like a guy willing to do what was necessary.  And loyalty works both ways, Ray not only willingly went to the bench but was constantly in trade rumors and was actually told at one point he was traded, before the other team backed out.   

Before the big 3, Allen and Pierce had each won 3 playoff series, Garnett only had won 2.  Allen  had far greater success since leaving Boston as well.  It is entirely possible that Ray Allen was the real reason that Boston was winning.  After all, Allen and Garnett joined in the same season and the one year KG was here, Allen wasn't, Boston lost in the 1st round and Allen was winning a NBA championship (which he followed up with a Finals appearance).
Obviously there's no way to know who really caused the culture shift, but I've heard doc Paul and Danny all wax poetic about the culture shift KG brought and haven't heard that type of testimony about Ray.
Sure, but they apparently felt betrayed when Ray left, despite all of the constant trade rumors and speculation, so it is hard to say if that is really the truth.  You see this is the downside of "Trader" Danny.  The man that would trade anyone at anytime if he thought it was best for the team.  It is hard to build loyalty among your players, when you've gone on record saying you would have traded Larry Bird and you did in fact trade Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Kendrick Perkins, Rajon Rondo, and even Ray Allen (though that one fell through).  How many GM's in the history of the game have traded the entire starting 5 of a championship team?

And don't get me wrong, I am playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but I do think you can accurately say Boston doesn't win that title without Ray Allen, both on the court (he was a pretty integral part of the team and playoff run) and off the court (i.e. KG doesn't come here without Allen).  No real way to separate the contributions of KG and Ray since they came to Boston together.
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Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2016, 11:46:45 AM »

Offline incoherent

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OK I read this whole thread, I understand both arguments.

One thing for sure, we will regret it if we don't retire KG's number.

The other for sure thing is that his number is getting retired.

If the people who own the franchise feel like they should retire it, I'm going to side with them and their reasons.




Re: Are we retiring #5 ??
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2016, 12:59:47 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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How do you know it wasn't Ray that was responsible for the culture shift?
Perhaps we should ask the guys that were actually there at the time? Oh wait, someone already did...

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4695081/pierce-kg-changed-the-culture
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."