Poll

Would you trade Smart for Noel straight up

Straight up for real. Yes.
30 (20.8%)
Straight up for real. No.
101 (70.1%)
I love Leprechaun's
13 (9%)

Total Members Voted: 144

Author Topic: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up  (Read 23941 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #75 on: September 14, 2016, 09:38:20 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
I have no statistical evidence, but I watched about 15 sixers games last year and in my opinion he's not an elite defender.  He's roughly on par with Amir Johnson, just with more theatrics and more mistakes.  A guy like DeAndre Jordan warps the entire court.  You never get that sense with Noel.  He can be moved out of a play by a SF.  Not elite.
There's layers there to pull through.  Did you happen to catch games he was playing out of position?  We're talking about a 10 win team that was intentionally trying to lose games.  They didn't really have NBA players on that roster for the most part.  FWIW, he had by far the highest defensive rating on the team.  He also put up far better stats as the starting Center than he did as a PF.  We also saw him make a leap when Ish Smith returned - so maybe he'd succeed with decent players surrounding him. 

The kid could probably flourish on this team.
The games were evenly distributed, more or less.  They improved from a D-league team to simply the worst team with Ish.  The effort was surprisingly good throughout.  Credit to coach Brown.  I don't think it matters if he was playing 4 or 5, tbh.

My problem with Noel is that his game is defined by highlight reel blocks and alley-oops.  He plays with a sort of anticipation of the next highlight.  For every weak side shot block, he gives up an offensive rebound.  For every steal, he turns the ball over twice.  He grabs a nice rebound in traffic and you'd like him to make a quick outlet pass, but he palms the ball instead, celebrating his rebound.  It's like he's playing his own game. Basically the opposite of Smart.
He'd probably look significantly better on a real basketball team.
I don't see why that would be true.  e.g. the Spurs don't select players like Noel and mold them into good players.  They draft intelligent, team-oriented players.  You'll never see Noel on the Spurs, I guarantee that.

Maybe the problem with Noel is expectations.  People think he can be an elite center some day because he was a top pick.  That just isn't true.  He should focus on being the best Tyson Chandler he can be.

Tyson Chandler was the #2 pick in his draft.
And he had a nice career as a role player.  He wasn't Hakeem Olajuwon.  That's my point.  Noel's ceiling is in the Tyson Chandler range, not the Hakeem range.
Who said he had Hakeem potential?  I think it's well known Tyson Chandler is the comp. 

The question, then, becomes whether or not you think Tony Allen or Tyson Chandler makes more of an impact on a team.   Tony's a great defender, but he has only so much impact on the game.  Tyson Chandler was a DPOY and helped a team win a championship.   As others have said, if you're choosing between two defense-only players, you go with the big.

That said, I still truly hope Marcus Smart makes a leap next season and surpasses what looks like a Tony Allen ceiling right now.
I think Smart is more Joe Dumars than Tony Allen, and I don't think Noel ever reaches  that Tyson Chandler ceiling.  It's too simple to say they're both defensive players.  Smart shows the best defensive fundamentals and instincts I've seen in 35 years.  Noel is behind the curve.

Smart is also demonstrating historically bad offensive production. He rarely shows flashes of ability to make that leap, as well. His shot looked better in the playoffs -- small sample size -- but he hasn't even shown flashes of being able to penetrate, making plays for himself or others. That's the staple of our offense -- create driving lanes for IT, via PnR and spacing, and attack the gaps. AB has even shown improvement within this system.

Defensively, he is benefiting from perhaps the best on-the-job training in the world -- excellent coaching on a [dang] good defensive-oriented team. Noel has accomplished what he has in Philly's well-documented dumpster fire.
What did Noel accomplish exactly?  12 wins and 45% shooting?

Smart is not a slasher.  He doesn't have a great first step. He's learning to take advantage of his physicality.  His instincts and competitiveness will make him great.  1 or 2 more years.  Mark my words.

Double post.

Knibb High football rules.
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #76 on: September 14, 2016, 09:40:54 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
I have no statistical evidence, but I watched about 15 sixers games last year and in my opinion he's not an elite defender.  He's roughly on par with Amir Johnson, just with more theatrics and more mistakes.  A guy like DeAndre Jordan warps the entire court.  You never get that sense with Noel.  He can be moved out of a play by a SF.  Not elite.
There's layers there to pull through.  Did you happen to catch games he was playing out of position?  We're talking about a 10 win team that was intentionally trying to lose games.  They didn't really have NBA players on that roster for the most part.  FWIW, he had by far the highest defensive rating on the team.  He also put up far better stats as the starting Center than he did as a PF.  We also saw him make a leap when Ish Smith returned - so maybe he'd succeed with decent players surrounding him. 

The kid could probably flourish on this team.
The games were evenly distributed, more or less.  They improved from a D-league team to simply the worst team with Ish.  The effort was surprisingly good throughout.  Credit to coach Brown.  I don't think it matters if he was playing 4 or 5, tbh.

My problem with Noel is that his game is defined by highlight reel blocks and alley-oops.  He plays with a sort of anticipation of the next highlight.  For every weak side shot block, he gives up an offensive rebound.  For every steal, he turns the ball over twice.  He grabs a nice rebound in traffic and you'd like him to make a quick outlet pass, but he palms the ball instead, celebrating his rebound.  It's like he's playing his own game. Basically the opposite of Smart.
He'd probably look significantly better on a real basketball team.
I don't see why that would be true.  e.g. the Spurs don't select players like Noel and mold them into good players.  They draft intelligent, team-oriented players.  You'll never see Noel on the Spurs, I guarantee that.

Maybe the problem with Noel is expectations.  People think he can be an elite center some day because he was a top pick.  That just isn't true.  He should focus on being the best Tyson Chandler he can be.

Tyson Chandler was the #2 pick in his draft.
And he had a nice career as a role player.  He wasn't Hakeem Olajuwon.  That's my point.  Noel's ceiling is in the Tyson Chandler range, not the Hakeem range.
Who said he had Hakeem potential?  I think it's well known Tyson Chandler is the comp. 

The question, then, becomes whether or not you think Tony Allen or Tyson Chandler makes more of an impact on a team.   Tony's a great defender, but he has only so much impact on the game.  Tyson Chandler was a DPOY and helped a team win a championship.   As others have said, if you're choosing between two defense-only players, you go with the big.

That said, I still truly hope Marcus Smart makes a leap next season and surpasses what looks like a Tony Allen ceiling right now.
I think Smart is more Joe Dumars than Tony Allen, and I don't think Noel ever reaches  that Tyson Chandler ceiling.  It's too simple to say they're both defensive players.  Smart shows the best defensive fundamentals and instincts I've seen in 35 years.  Noel is behind the curve.

Smart is also demonstrating historically bad offensive production. He rarely shows flashes of ability to make that leap, as well. His shot looked better in the playoffs -- small sample size -- but he hasn't even shown flashes of being able to penetrate, making plays for himself or others. That's the staple of our offense -- create driving lanes for IT, via PnR and spacing, and attack the gaps. AB has even shown improvement within this system.

Defensively, he is benefiting from perhaps the best on-the-job training in the world -- excellent coaching on a [dang] good defensive-oriented team. Noel has accomplished what he has in Philly's well-documented dumpster fire.
What did Noel accomplish exactly?  12 wins and 45% shooting?

Smart is not a slasher.  He doesn't have a great first step. He's learning to take advantage of his physicality.  His instincts and competitiveness will make him great.  1 or 2 more years.  Mark my words.

Yes, good points -- Noel couldn't lead one of the worst teams in NBA history (and purposely trying to lose) to more than 12 wins on his rookie contract. And 45% from the field supports my statement above that he "projects to suck offensively." Not sure where you were headed with those two points -- they seem to have substantiated mine.

Correct, Smart is not a slasher -- substantiating another point above. But do you not see why that's an issue? His shooting is so dreadful, and arguably regressing, that he has given us no reason for optimism on the offensive end. If he can't slash, he can't excel at PG; If he can't shoot, he can't excel at SG (offensively). I hope you're right, but I'll be shocked at the same time.

So your argument rests on your personal belief that Smart will develop into a solid offensive player -- "great," even. I'm not sold on that. So if not, again, I'd rather have a mobile defensive specialist that is 6'11" versus one that is 6'4". Call me crazy.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 09:53:59 PM by tarheelsxxiii »
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #77 on: September 14, 2016, 09:59:07 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8635
  • Tommy Points: 1136
I have no statistical evidence, but I watched about 15 sixers games last year and in my opinion he's not an elite defender.  He's roughly on par with Amir Johnson, just with more theatrics and more mistakes.  A guy like DeAndre Jordan warps the entire court.  You never get that sense with Noel.  He can be moved out of a play by a SF.  Not elite.
There's layers there to pull through.  Did you happen to catch games he was playing out of position?  We're talking about a 10 win team that was intentionally trying to lose games.  They didn't really have NBA players on that roster for the most part.  FWIW, he had by far the highest defensive rating on the team.  He also put up far better stats as the starting Center than he did as a PF.  We also saw him make a leap when Ish Smith returned - so maybe he'd succeed with decent players surrounding him. 

The kid could probably flourish on this team.
The games were evenly distributed, more or less.  They improved from a D-league team to simply the worst team with Ish.  The effort was surprisingly good throughout.  Credit to coach Brown.  I don't think it matters if he was playing 4 or 5, tbh.

My problem with Noel is that his game is defined by highlight reel blocks and alley-oops.  He plays with a sort of anticipation of the next highlight.  For every weak side shot block, he gives up an offensive rebound.  For every steal, he turns the ball over twice.  He grabs a nice rebound in traffic and you'd like him to make a quick outlet pass, but he palms the ball instead, celebrating his rebound.  It's like he's playing his own game. Basically the opposite of Smart.
He'd probably look significantly better on a real basketball team.
I don't see why that would be true.  e.g. the Spurs don't select players like Noel and mold them into good players.  They draft intelligent, team-oriented players.  You'll never see Noel on the Spurs, I guarantee that.

Maybe the problem with Noel is expectations.  People think he can be an elite center some day because he was a top pick.  That just isn't true.  He should focus on being the best Tyson Chandler he can be.

Tyson Chandler was the #2 pick in his draft.
And he had a nice career as a role player.  He wasn't Hakeem Olajuwon.  That's my point.  Noel's ceiling is in the Tyson Chandler range, not the Hakeem range.
Who said he had Hakeem potential?  I think it's well known Tyson Chandler is the comp. 

The question, then, becomes whether or not you think Tony Allen or Tyson Chandler makes more of an impact on a team.   Tony's a great defender, but he has only so much impact on the game.  Tyson Chandler was a DPOY and helped a team win a championship.   As others have said, if you're choosing between two defense-only players, you go with the big.

That said, I still truly hope Marcus Smart makes a leap next season and surpasses what looks like a Tony Allen ceiling right now.
I think Smart is more Joe Dumars than Tony Allen, and I don't think Noel ever reaches  that Tyson Chandler ceiling.  It's too simple to say they're both defensive players.  Smart shows the best defensive fundamentals and instincts I've seen in 35 years.  Noel is behind the curve.

Smart is also demonstrating historically bad offensive production. He rarely shows flashes of ability to make that leap, as well. His shot looked better in the playoffs -- small sample size -- but he hasn't even shown flashes of being able to penetrate, making plays for himself or others. That's the staple of our offense -- create driving lanes for IT, via PnR and spacing, and attack the gaps. AB has even shown improvement within this system.

Defensively, he is benefiting from perhaps the best on-the-job training in the world -- excellent coaching on a [dang] good defensive-oriented team. Noel has accomplished what he has in Philly's well-documented dumpster fire.
What did Noel accomplish exactly?  12 wins and 45% shooting?

Smart is not a slasher.  He doesn't have a great first step. He's learning to take advantage of his physicality.  His instincts and competitiveness will make him great.  1 or 2 more years.  Mark my words.



 Ok man Tp for the bold prediction.

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2016, 07:44:56 AM »

Offline YoungOne87

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1167
  • Tommy Points: 65
if we trade them straight up we have a slight upgrade over amir with better upside but a deep hole in the backcourt especially from the bench since turner is gone aswell.

I dont want to go into the season with unproven benchplayers (Rozier, Hunter, Young etc.)
A deep rotation is our strengh right now.

I would like to have noel, but not for smart.

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2016, 09:43:02 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36776
  • Tommy Points: 2961
I got TOO much invested in Smart basketball attire .....no way I'm giving up my favorite threads.

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2016, 09:43:45 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 36776
  • Tommy Points: 2961
if we trade them straight up we have a slight upgrade over amir with better upside but a deep hole in the backcourt especially from the bench since turner is gone aswell.

I dont want to go into the season with unproven benchplayers (Rozier, Hunter, Young etc.)
A deep rotation is our strengh right now.

I would like to have noel, but not for smart.

My exact feeling ...TP

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #81 on: September 15, 2016, 12:42:28 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
if we trade them straight up we have a slight upgrade over amir with better upside but a deep hole in the backcourt especially from the bench since turner is gone aswell.

I dont want to go into the season with unproven benchplayers (Rozier, Hunter, Young etc.)
A deep rotation is our strengh right now.

I would like to have noel, but not for smart.
deep rotations mean nothing in the post-season.  Green is fine as a back-up SG, which really only leaves back-up PG as a potential problem, though I'm not sure we really want Smart running the point anyway.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2016, 12:50:23 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15742
  • Tommy Points: 1386
if we trade them straight up we have a slight upgrade over amir with better upside but a deep hole in the backcourt especially from the bench since turner is gone aswell.

I dont want to go into the season with unproven benchplayers (Rozier, Hunter, Young etc.)
A deep rotation is our strengh right now.

I would like to have noel, but not for smart.

My exact feeling ...TP

This is how I feel too. I think it is a fair trade, but I wouldn't really risk messing with chemistry, potential free agent opportunities etc for what amounts to a luxury on the defensive end that will cost us very much money starting next year. (not to mention their may be a slightly higher chance smart makes a leap at this point than noel because noel has 3 years of working with NBA trainers compared to 2 for smart and smart's shooting feels a little more fixable than noel's offense and hands)

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2016, 12:57:17 PM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6970
  • Tommy Points: 466
I have no statistical evidence, but I watched about 15 sixers games last year and in my opinion he's not an elite defender.  He's roughly on par with Amir Johnson, just with more theatrics and more mistakes.  A guy like DeAndre Jordan warps the entire court.  You never get that sense with Noel.  He can be moved out of a play by a SF.  Not elite.
There's layers there to pull through.  Did you happen to catch games he was playing out of position?  We're talking about a 10 win team that was intentionally trying to lose games.  They didn't really have NBA players on that roster for the most part.  FWIW, he had by far the highest defensive rating on the team.  He also put up far better stats as the starting Center than he did as a PF.  We also saw him make a leap when Ish Smith returned - so maybe he'd succeed with decent players surrounding him. 

The kid could probably flourish on this team.
The games were evenly distributed, more or less.  They improved from a D-league team to simply the worst team with Ish.  The effort was surprisingly good throughout.  Credit to coach Brown.  I don't think it matters if he was playing 4 or 5, tbh.

My problem with Noel is that his game is defined by highlight reel blocks and alley-oops.  He plays with a sort of anticipation of the next highlight.  For every weak side shot block, he gives up an offensive rebound.  For every steal, he turns the ball over twice.  He grabs a nice rebound in traffic and you'd like him to make a quick outlet pass, but he palms the ball instead, celebrating his rebound.  It's like he's playing his own game. Basically the opposite of Smart.
He'd probably look significantly better on a real basketball team.
I don't see why that would be true.  e.g. the Spurs don't select players like Noel and mold them into good players.  They draft intelligent, team-oriented players.  You'll never see Noel on the Spurs, I guarantee that.

Maybe the problem with Noel is expectations.  People think he can be an elite center some day because he was a top pick.  That just isn't true.  He should focus on being the best Tyson Chandler he can be.

Tyson Chandler was the #2 pick in his draft.
And he had a nice career as a role player.  He wasn't Hakeem Olajuwon.  That's my point.  Noel's ceiling is in the Tyson Chandler range, not the Hakeem range.
Who said he had Hakeem potential?  I think it's well known Tyson Chandler is the comp. 

The question, then, becomes whether or not you think Tony Allen or Tyson Chandler makes more of an impact on a team.   Tony's a great defender, but he has only so much impact on the game.  Tyson Chandler was a DPOY and helped a team win a championship.   As others have said, if you're choosing between two defense-only players, you go with the big.

That said, I still truly hope Marcus Smart makes a leap next season and surpasses what looks like a Tony Allen ceiling right now.
I think Smart is more Joe Dumars than Tony Allen, and I don't think Noel ever reaches  that Tyson Chandler ceiling.  It's too simple to say they're both defensive players.  Smart shows the best defensive fundamentals and instincts I've seen in 35 years.  Noel is behind the curve.
That's funny.  I think there is a decent to very good chance that Noel can be become Tyson Chandler.  I think it is a perfect comp and that there is a  chance it happens.  On the other hand, I think there is virtually no chance that Smart becomes Joe Dumars, who is in the Hall of Fame for ****. 

Kind of tired of seeing fans not understand the idea of a combo guy, which I presume people think of when they think of Smart.  They see a guy that isn't a true PG, isn't a true SG and think hey, he's both; just like Joe Dumars!

The difference is, Dumars could handle multiple roles WELL.  All Smart has shown offensively is that he can't handle either well.  There is a huge difference between someone like Smart and Joe Dumars.

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2016, 01:09:48 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
if we trade them straight up we have a slight upgrade over amir with better upside but a deep hole in the backcourt especially from the bench since turner is gone aswell.

I dont want to go into the season with unproven benchplayers (Rozier, Hunter, Young etc.)
A deep rotation is our strengh right now.

I would like to have noel, but not for smart.

My exact feeling ...TP

This is how I feel too. I think it is a fair trade, but I wouldn't really risk messing with chemistry, potential free agent opportunities etc for what amounts to a luxury on the defensive end that will cost us very much money starting next year. (not to mention their may be a slightly higher chance smart makes a leap at this point than noel because noel has 3 years of working with NBA trainers compared to 2 for smart and smart's shooting feels a little more fixable than noel's offense and hands)
Smart is about a month older than Noel and while Noel has 3 years of NBA trainers, he only has 2 years of games and has played 14 more games in those two years, proving to be the healthier player (kind of ironic for a guy that missed an entire season).  Smart is a better assist creator, foul shooter, and doesn't turn it over as much, but that is pretty much it.  Noel statistically, both the actual and advanced metrics, has significantly outperformed Smart in their two seasons of play, despite playing on one of the worst teams in history, that was trying to lose, and with significantly lesser talent surrounding him.  Couple that with a guy with 1 less year of college, who missed an entire season due to injury, and plays at a position that historically takes much longer to peak, and I really can't understand why anyone would prefer Smart to Noel.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2016, 01:29:45 PM »

Offline MBunge

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4661
  • Tommy Points: 471
I really can't understand why anyone would prefer Smart to Noel.

One has been a contributing factor in a playoff team that won 40 and 48 games the last two seasons, can't shoot a lick but can handle and pass the ball, has the physical build to potentially dominate other players at his position, has shown exceptional defensive ability and a great competitive drive.

The other has been a non-factor on a team that won 28 games total the last two seasons, can't shoot a lick AND can't dribble, catch or pass the ball, is a physical weakling at his position, has shown exceptional defensive potential but hasn't really demonstrated anything as far as competitive spirit or leadership.  Oh, and he's also shown that his level of performance is VERY dependent on who is playing with.

What's not to understand?

Mike

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2016, 01:30:09 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21238
  • Tommy Points: 2016
if we trade them straight up we have a slight upgrade over amir with better upside but a deep hole in the backcourt especially from the bench since turner is gone aswell.

I dont want to go into the season with unproven benchplayers (Rozier, Hunter, Young etc.)
A deep rotation is our strengh right now.

I would like to have noel, but not for smart.

My exact feeling ...TP

This is how I feel too. I think it is a fair trade, but I wouldn't really risk messing with chemistry, potential free agent opportunities etc for what amounts to a luxury on the defensive end that will cost us very much money starting next year. (not to mention their may be a slightly higher chance smart makes a leap at this point than noel because noel has 3 years of working with NBA trainers compared to 2 for smart and smart's shooting feels a little more fixable than noel's offense and hands)
Smart is about a month older than Noel and while Noel has 3 years of NBA trainers, he only has 2 years of games and has played 14 more games in those two years, proving to be the healthier player (kind of ironic for a guy that missed an entire season).  Smart is a better assist creator, foul shooter, and doesn't turn it over as much, but that is pretty much it.  Noel statistically, both the actual and advanced metrics, has significantly outperformed Smart in their two seasons of play, despite playing on one of the worst teams in history, that was trying to lose, and with significantly lesser talent surrounding him.  Couple that with a guy with 1 less year of college, who missed an entire season due to injury, and plays at a position that historically takes much longer to peak, and I really can't understand why anyone would prefer Smart to Noel.
and that's why if you ask this question on a Philly forum, it's going to be dramatically slanted towards "no" even despite their obvious log jam.

We are on the fence about it here because we love Marcus and still have faith he will make a leap in year 3.   But honestly it's probably just as likely that Noel makes a leap in his 3rd season playing.

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2016, 01:34:54 PM »

Offline apc

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4310
  • Tommy Points: 437
Forum poll:
trade Marcus:22%
no trade: 50%

Front page poll:
trade Marcus:40%
no trade: 47%

Interesting gap there... are forum fans more hardcore/homers/green tint glasses type?  ;)

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2016, 01:38:58 PM »

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
I really can't understand why anyone would prefer Smart to Noel.

One has been a contributing factor in a playoff team that won 40 and 48 games the last two seasons, can't shoot a lick but can handle and pass the ball, has the physical build to potentially dominate other players at his position, has shown exceptional defensive ability and a great competitive drive.

The other has been a non-factor on a team that won 28 games total the last two seasons, can't shoot a lick AND can't dribble, catch or pass the ball, is a physical weakling at his position, has shown exceptional defensive potential but hasn't really demonstrated anything as far as competitive spirit or leadership.  Oh, and he's also shown that his level of performance is VERY dependent on who is playing with.

What's not to understand?

Mike
TP

Re: Poll: Marcus for Nerlens straight up
« Reply #89 on: September 15, 2016, 01:57:26 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15742
  • Tommy Points: 1386
if we trade them straight up we have a slight upgrade over amir with better upside but a deep hole in the backcourt especially from the bench since turner is gone aswell.

I dont want to go into the season with unproven benchplayers (Rozier, Hunter, Young etc.)
A deep rotation is our strengh right now.

I would like to have noel, but not for smart.

My exact feeling ...TP

This is how I feel too. I think it is a fair trade, but I wouldn't really risk messing with chemistry, potential free agent opportunities etc for what amounts to a luxury on the defensive end that will cost us very much money starting next year. (not to mention their may be a slightly higher chance smart makes a leap at this point than noel because noel has 3 years of working with NBA trainers compared to 2 for smart and smart's shooting feels a little more fixable than noel's offense and hands)
Smart is about a month older than Noel and while Noel has 3 years of NBA trainers, he only has 2 years of games and has played 14 more games in those two years, proving to be the healthier player (kind of ironic for a guy that missed an entire season).  Smart is a better assist creator, foul shooter, and doesn't turn it over as much, but that is pretty much it.  Noel statistically, both the actual and advanced metrics, has significantly outperformed Smart in their two seasons of play, despite playing on one of the worst teams in history, that was trying to lose, and with significantly lesser talent surrounding him.  Couple that with a guy with 1 less year of college, who missed an entire season due to injury, and plays at a position that historically takes much longer to peak, and I really can't understand why anyone would prefer Smart to Noel.

I guess it comes down to how you view development. I think even if you are not playing, but still have access to NBA trainers, NBA dieticians, NBA practices it is still miles better than a year of college where you have limits on how many practices you can take part in, can't legally have any meals or training equipment bought for you, still have to go to class and keep your grades up to a certain degree in order to be able to play and have severe limitations on what you can do during the summer time. You couple this with the fact that Noel almost certainly could have physically played towards the end of his rookie year but was held out for precaution (eg tanking) reasons and I think it is fair to think that Smart still has a greater chance of making a leap in his 3rd season than Noel does in his 4th despite being the same age.

Again, I can understand how someone would feel differently, but I think there is at least a reasonable argument to be made that smart has a little more chance of having a leap right now than Noel does. (To say nothing of the fact that there are historical examples of people improving their shooting, but really don't think there are of people improving their hands)