Anyone upset about the wasted assets?

[celticsclay]

Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.

So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike

The fact that Covington on a 10 win team had more Defensive win shares than Olynyk did on a 48 win team shows the vast discrepancy in their defensive ability and prowess. 

And you just showed that you don't under stand anything.  That's not how defensive win shares work, as evidenced by the fact that a vastly better defender on the Celtics like Avery Bradley had a DWS last season of 2.8 to Kelly's 2.0 or that Jared Sullinger had a 3.6 DWS last season to Nerlens Noel's 2.8.

Do you even actually watch basketball?

Mike

I've wondered that a few times watching him talk about the 76ers role players...

[Moranis]

You don't understand win shares at all.  They are based on a team's total wins.  That is why the Celtics total WinShares are 48.6 and the Sixers total WinShares were 15.8 (some of those numbers are obviously skewed by players on both teams playing for other teams during the year). 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2016.html?lid=standings_team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2016.html?lid=standings_team

Defensive WinShares look at defensive statistics and then put a number of the wins actually contributed by the player to that teams win total.  That is why you generally can't compare WinShares of a player on a 48 win team vs a player on a 10 win team.

I mean you can look no further than Kevin Garnett for a solid example of this.  His last year in Minnesota Garnett played 76 games at almost 40 minutes a game, he averaged over 22 points, nearly 13 boards, and 4 assists a game.  First year in Boston just 71 games, down to 33 minutes, 19/9/3.5, yet his WinShares increased from 10.7 to 12.9 (.171 to .265 per 48).  Did KG who played in less games at significantly less minutes a game, and produced less overall stats, magically get better or did he go from a 32 win team to a 66 win team.  You see the same effect with Pierce and Allen as well. 

They are based on statistics (which is why Bradley who isn't a great stat guy might not have his full defense reflected in that stat), but the number is absolutely connected to a teams actual wins.  I mean think about it logically, you can't have a winshare if your team doesn't have wins. 

[celticsclay]

Dear God, this is horrifying. When Sixers fans come on here and say our four best assets are all better than anything you have, they have a legit argument. I think Philly and Boston will be interesting to compare for the next decades as they took such different roots in the rebuild.

But when you start acting like Jakarr something or other and Henry Sims and Ish Smith...Ish Smith, and Isiah Canaan are worth anything in the whole world you lose all, and I mean all credibility. Go back and look at any big time tank operation and you will see a bunch of guys putting up reasonable stats, because someone has got to put the ball in the basket. Lets look at last year. Evan Turner and MCW put up great stats for philly, better stats than anyone that you guys are touting as hidden gems. Since then it has been discovered that these players are not good.

STOP BONING PHILLLY!!!!*

When discussing Embiid, Noel, a top5 pick, and Saric boning is permitted, but not when you are talking about ish ****ing smith

Ish Smith and Isiah Canaan were bench players on playoff teams before coming to Philly.  Hell Canaan even started 9 games for Houston this year.  Sure they are getting more minutes and thus producing better on Philly because Philly is not a playoff team, but if they could be bench players on playoff teams in the past, one would reason they would be bench players on playoff teams in the future. 

MCW post trade on a per minute basis is scoring the same, has upped his steals, lowered his turnovers, though his assists and rebounds are down.  He went from a terrible team to the 6th seed in the East and is about the same player.  And he is a volume scorer type player. 

A guy like Hollis Thompson isn't going to forget how to shoot if he was on a better team and there aren't many guys 6'8" who enter the league and are over 39% from three that early on.  Most players take awhile to get up to that sort of real shooting. 


Again these guys are bench players that are being forced to start because Philly only has one quality starter (Noel).  You aren't going to win if you are starting and playing bench players huge minutes.  My point in this thread has been merely there isn't much difference between guys like Zeller and Crowder and guys like Sims and Thompson. You can't call the Boston players assets and the Philly guys scrubs.  The numbers just don't bear that out.  I'd be perfectly fine if you called them all scrubs though because lets face it they are all nothing more than bench players.

You remember the last time you were pumping up Philly's role players? You said no difference between Sims and Thompson and Crowder and Zeller. Since then Crowder has clearly become a top 15 small forward and Zeller has signed an 8 million dollar deal as a backup center.

Sims meanwhile has been cut by the Suns and managed to latch onto the Nets for 14 games at the end of the season. From what I can find he remains unsigned for the upcoming season after a summer league stint with the Nets.

Hollis Thompson is fortunate enough to have his minimum contract picked up by the 76ers, but recently had his value to the team described this way by the 76ers blog

"Thompson is going to be the go-to guy when teammates need to know something. Who do I go to for help with this? What’s the best place to eat in Philadelphia? Sure, the coaching staff can help with areas of the game, and players can find places to eat on their own, but having a player around that newer teammates know they can go to can be important. More important than we may realize."

http://thesixersense.com/2016/08/30/philadelphia-76ers-hollis-thompson-important/

But by all means, please tell us how good Covington is again and that he is as good as KO.

/Thread

[Moranis]

Crowder has obviously improved a great deal and is a quality starter.  Hopefully he continues to improve though given his age he might be nearing his peak, hopefully not and he is one of the guys that peaks closer to 30 than 26. 

Thompson is still an excellent shooter.  He will be an excellent shooter for his entire career most likely, but that is pretty much his entire role (which is what I've always said about him). 

Zeller barely played for Boston last year.  He got the contract so that Boston could trade him. 

Sims is bad.  No dispute from me on that one.

[celticsclay]

Crowder has obviously improved a great deal and is a quality starter.  Hopefully he continues to improve though given his age he might be nearing his peak, hopefully not and he is one of the guys that peaks closer to 30 than 26. 

Thompson is still an excellent shooter.  He will be an excellent shooter for his entire career most likely, but that is pretty much his entire role (which is what I've always said about him). 

Zeller barely played for Boston last year.  He got the contract so that Boston could trade him. 

Sims is bad.  No dispute from me on that one.

question 1) are you walking back your point that you thought crowder/zeller was interchangable with sims/thompson

question 2) Do you think maybe the 76er role players are not very good? (read  role players on a historically bad team)

[kozlodoev]

Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.

So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike

Spitting a bunch of numbers that you may or may not understand on a page isn't really explaining anything, but I'll play.

Apparently the main argument here is that Olynyk has been playing in a "competitive environment", so we should ignore the fact that he was limited to 20 mpg in a rotation where the minutes were clearly there for the taking. Or that he's a seven footer who cannot rebound or control the paint, and has no offensive came within 10 feet. In fact, an argument can be made that Covington, who has established himself as a competent 3-and-D type, can do just as fine as Olynyk in a 20-minute rotational role on a contended.

[celticsclay]

Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.

So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike

Spitting a bunch of numbers that you may or may not understand on a page isn't really explaining anything, but I'll play.

Apparently the main argument here is that Olynyk has been playing in a "competitive environment", so we should ignore the fact that he was limited to 20 mpg in a rotation where the minutes were clearly there for the taking. Or that he's a seven footer who cannot rebound or control the paint, and has no offensive came within 10 feet. In fact, an argument can be made that Covington, who has established himself as a competent 3-and-D type, can do just as fine as Olynyk in a 20-minute rotational role on a contended.

Are we ignoring the fact that since Philly has started their marvelous experiment there have been a large number of players that have seen their numbers completely crumble once leaving Philadelphia and have put up worse numbers or fallen out of the league completely since leaving? I don't get how people can ignore this fact at this point.

Look at:
MCW
Sims
Mbah a Moute
Ish Smith (between his stops, it is like a time series analysis!)
Spencer Hawes
KJ McDaniels
Tony Wroten

How can we not be extremely skeptical that anyone outside of Noel, Okafor that was on their roster last season would be able to crack another team's rotation after watching this the last few years?

[Moranis]

Crowder has obviously improved a great deal and is a quality starter.  Hopefully he continues to improve though given his age he might be nearing his peak, hopefully not and he is one of the guys that peaks closer to 30 than 26. 

Thompson is still an excellent shooter.  He will be an excellent shooter for his entire career most likely, but that is pretty much his entire role (which is what I've always said about him). 

Zeller barely played for Boston last year.  He got the contract so that Boston could trade him. 

Sims is bad.  No dispute from me on that one.

question 1) are you walking back your point that you thought crowder/zeller was interchangable with sims/thompson

question 2) Do you think maybe the 76er role players are not very good? (read  role players on a historically bad team)

Crowder yes, Zeller no.

They aren't role players on the 76ers.  They are starters, they would be role players on other teams.

[LooseCannon]

The fact that there is a debate on whether or not KO is or could be the best 3 shooting big in the league 100% proves that half this thread is a completely waste of time.

Assuming equal defense and rebounding, the best three-point shooting big is probably going to be more valuable than the best post-up big.

[celticsclay]

Crowder has obviously improved a great deal and is a quality starter.  Hopefully he continues to improve though given his age he might be nearing his peak, hopefully not and he is one of the guys that peaks closer to 30 than 26. 

Thompson is still an excellent shooter.  He will be an excellent shooter for his entire career most likely, but that is pretty much his entire role (which is what I've always said about him). 

Zeller barely played for Boston last year.  He got the contract so that Boston could trade him. 

Sims is bad.  No dispute from me on that one.

question 1) are you walking back your point that you thought crowder/zeller was interchangable with sims/thompson

question 2) Do you think maybe the 76er role players are not very good? (read  role players on a historically bad team)

Crowder yes, Zeller no.

They aren't role players on the 76ers.  They are starters, they would be role players on other teams.

So Sims who couldn't latch on with an NBA roster (Nets) is equivalent to a backup center on a team projected to win 50 games #stubbornasamule

[Moranis]

Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.

So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike

Spitting a bunch of numbers that you may or may not understand on a page isn't really explaining anything, but I'll play.

Apparently the main argument here is that Olynyk has been playing in a "competitive environment", so we should ignore the fact that he was limited to 20 mpg in a rotation where the minutes were clearly there for the taking. Or that he's a seven footer who cannot rebound or control the paint, and has no offensive came within 10 feet. In fact, an argument can be made that Covington, who has established himself as a competent 3-and-D type, can do just as fine as Olynyk in a 20-minute rotational role on a contended.

Are we ignoring the fact that since Philly has started their marvelous experiment there have been a large number of players that have seen their numbers completely crumble once leaving Philadelphia and have put up worse numbers or fallen out of the league completely since leaving? I don't get how people can ignore this fact at this point.

Look at:
MCW
Sims
Mbah a Moute
Ish Smith (between his stops, it is like a time series analysis!)
Spencer Hawes
KJ McDaniels
Tony Wroten

How can we not be extremely skeptical that anyone outside of Noel, Okafor that was on their roster last season would be able to crack another team's rotation after watching this the last few years?

Ish Smith was every bit as good in New Orleans as he was in Philadelphia, he just had more shots and more minute opportunities in Philly so his total points were higher. 

Spencer Hawes best stint ever was in Cleveland after he left Philly.

MCW just had his most efficient season ever, just less shots on a better team.  He also rebounded and assisted at around the same percentage. 

Mbah a Moute just started 61 games for the Clippers.  Last time I checked they were a pretty good team, no?

McDaniels per 36 was better in Houston than Philly and was far more efficient.  Didn't play as many minutes, but actually performed better away from Philly.

Even Sims per 36 was right around the same player in Brooklyn as he was in Philly. 

Wroten hasn't played anywhere but Philly.  Who knows what he will do, but all of your other examples, don't exactly help your cause.  In fact, they prove the exact opposite of what you think.  Yes, Philly lacks overall talent and thus role players have bigger roles and play more minutes than they would elsewhere, but pretty much across the board those role players are performing at or above their Philly level when they go to better teams, they just do so in lesser roles because those teams have more talent.

[celticsclay]

Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.

So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike

Spitting a bunch of numbers that you may or may not understand on a page isn't really explaining anything, but I'll play.

Apparently the main argument here is that Olynyk has been playing in a "competitive environment", so we should ignore the fact that he was limited to 20 mpg in a rotation where the minutes were clearly there for the taking. Or that he's a seven footer who cannot rebound or control the paint, and has no offensive came within 10 feet. In fact, an argument can be made that Covington, who has established himself as a competent 3-and-D type, can do just as fine as Olynyk in a 20-minute rotational role on a contended.

Are we ignoring the fact that since Philly has started their marvelous experiment there have been a large number of players that have seen their numbers completely crumble once leaving Philadelphia and have put up worse numbers or fallen out of the league completely since leaving? I don't get how people can ignore this fact at this point.

Look at:
MCW
Sims
Mbah a Moute
Ish Smith (between his stops, it is like a time series analysis!)
Spencer Hawes
KJ McDaniels
Tony Wroten

How can we not be extremely skeptical that anyone outside of Noel, Okafor that was on their roster last season would be able to crack another team's rotation after watching this the last few years?

Ish Smith was every bit as good in New Orleans as he was in Philadelphia, he just had more shots and more minute opportunities in Philly so his total points were higher. 

Spencer Hawes best stint ever was in Cleveland after he left Philly.

MCW just had his most efficient season ever, just less shots on a better team.  He also rebounded and assisted at around the same percentage. 

Mbah a Moute just started 61 games for the Clippers.  Last time I checked they were a pretty good team, no?

McDaniels per 36 was better in Houston than Philly and was far more efficient.  Didn't play as many minutes, but actually performed better away from Philly.

Even Sims per 36 was right around the same player in Brooklyn as he was in Philly. 

Wroten hasn't played anywhere but Philly.  Who knows what he will do, but all of your other examples, don't exactly help your cause.  In fact, they prove the exact opposite of what you think.  Yes, Philly lacks overall talent and thus role players have bigger roles and play more minutes than they would elsewhere, but pretty much across the board those role players are performing at or above their Philly level when they go to better teams, they just do so in lesser roles because those teams have more talent.

You are moderately intelligent no? If a guy can't land on an NBA roster (and he tried to like heck signing a summer league make good team) how in the world are his per 36 numbers playing for a team benching it's best two players on a 10 game losing streak relevant to anything?
Like seriously? We have a 25 year old guy that can't make an NBA roster and you are trying to talk to me about his per 36 numbers on a team that elects not to keep him on their roster...

KJ McDaniels can not stay in the Rockets rotation. He has not been good enough. Isn't that more important than what his per 36 numbers would be based on 6.5 minutes?

Wroten keeps getting cut (and by teams that desperately need talent). It means not good.

Of all of the posters on these board you drag the conversations into such nonsense because you don't accept the basic premises that if a guy can't make the league he isn't very good or if he can't crack a rotation he isn't very good. Do better pal. 

[LarBrd33]

What's this thread about now?  I want to make a hot take.

[celticsclay]

What's this thread about now?  I want to make a hot take.

Basically moranis is saying Covington is good or better than KO while also arguing that Henry Sims had good per 36 numbers before being cut by the nets, KJ mcdabiels has good 36 numbed despite being unable to crack the rotation and saying MCW has improved his efficiency or something

[LarBrd33]

What's this thread about now?  I want to make a hot take.

Basically moranis is saying Covington is good or better than KO while also arguing that Henry Sims had good per 36 numbers before being cut by the nets, KJ mcdabiels has good 36 numbed despite being unable to crack the rotation and saying MCW has improved his efficiency or something

Is the comparing of KO to Covington intended to suggest KO is one of our wasted assets - since we used a lotto pick on him?