Author Topic: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?  (Read 29952 times)

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Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #120 on: August 30, 2016, 11:39:17 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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That is all underselling that he is 7 feet tall.
Olynyk's entire playing career so far is underselling that he is 7 feet tall. He looks and plays like Luis Scola.
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Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #121 on: August 30, 2016, 11:43:22 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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I agree the guy is trolling.  If he is basing his argument off the fact that Delly got paid just wait and see what KO gets.  KO is the best 3pt shooting big in the game.  Dude is gonna get paid WAY more then Delly.
He is... if you don't count Dirk, Ryan Anderson, Chris Bosh, and Kevin Love. And then there are Scola, Frye, and Leonard that are arguably at least as good.

The highest 3p% among the first 4 was Dirk at 36.8% (while Kelly was at 40.5%), and only Love and Anderson had more 3pa/36

Source: http://bkref.com/tiny/gtJ0R

The next group has much better percentages than the first, but Kelly still beats all of them (although Scola at 40.4% is essentially the same, but at much lower volume).  Frye and Leonard both beat him for 3pa, but their percentages are significantly lower

Source: http://bkref.com/tiny/8WvcE

Unfortunately, I couldn't fit them all on one page, so the comparisons are separate
I'm bitter.

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #122 on: August 30, 2016, 11:45:31 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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The biggest difference comes in the form of minutes, with Anderson playing 30.4 and Kelly playing 20.2 per game, although the circumstances there differed, with the Celtics winning 48 games while the Pelicans only won 30.
Anderson played 36 mpg and averaged 19 ppg on a 2013 NO team that was 12-10 in the games he was on the court. That's the type of player he was when he was deemed to be worth $20 million a year, and before injuries did him in.

So the Rockets paid him based on his 2013 play, ignoring the recent injuries, rather than on his 2016 play?
I'm bitter.

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #123 on: August 30, 2016, 11:50:05 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I agree the guy is trolling.  If he is basing his argument off the fact that Delly got paid just wait and see what KO gets.  KO is the best 3pt shooting big in the game.  Dude is gonna get paid WAY more then Delly.
He is... if you don't count Dirk, Ryan Anderson, Chris Bosh, and Kevin Love. And then there are Scola, Frye, and Leonard that are arguably at least as good.

The highest 3p% among the first 4 was Dirk at 36.8% (while Kelly was at 40.5%), and only Love and Anderson had more 3pa/36

Source: http://bkref.com/tiny/gtJ0R

The next group has much better percentages than the first, but Kelly still beats all of them (although Scola at 40.4% is essentially the same, but at much lower volume).  Frye and Leonard both beat him for 3pa, but their percentages are significantly lower

Source: http://bkref.com/tiny/8WvcE

Unfortunately, I couldn't fit them all on one page, so the comparisons are separate
Two other things you need to take into account: (1)  track record, and (2) volume. Otherwise, your best three-point shooting big will clearly be Enes Kanter.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #124 on: August 30, 2016, 11:52:58 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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The biggest difference comes in the form of minutes, with Anderson playing 30.4 and Kelly playing 20.2 per game, although the circumstances there differed, with the Celtics winning 48 games while the Pelicans only won 30.
Anderson played 36 mpg and averaged 19 ppg on a 2013 NO team that was 12-10 in the games he was on the court. That's the type of player he was when he was deemed to be worth $20 million a year, and before injuries did him in.

So the Rockets paid him based on his 2013 play, ignoring the recent injuries, rather than on his 2016 play?
Oh, duh. The Pelicans apparently paid him $8 million/year. I thought it was more like $13-15 million. Which still obviously isn't $20 million, but he still has a track record of playing big minutes on winning teams, and I expect GMs to come down to earth crashing down the road. I don't think  Olynyk will command anything close to Anderson's contract.
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Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #125 on: August 30, 2016, 12:03:36 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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The biggest difference comes in the form of minutes, with Anderson playing 30.4 and Kelly playing 20.2 per game, although the circumstances there differed, with the Celtics winning 48 games while the Pelicans only won 30.
Anderson played 36 mpg and averaged 19 ppg on a 2013 NO team that was 12-10 in the games he was on the court. That's the type of player he was when he was deemed to be worth $20 million a year, and before injuries did him in.

So the Rockets paid him based on his 2013 play, ignoring the recent injuries, rather than on his 2016 play?
Oh, duh. The Pelicans apparently paid him $8 million/year. I thought it was more like $13-15 million. Which still obviously isn't $20 million, but he still has a track record of playing big minutes on winning teams, and I expect GMs to come down to earth crashing down the road. I don't think  Olynyk will command anything close to Anderson's contract.

I don't think he will, either (especially since he's missing the big cap space boom by a year), but the suggestion that Dellavadova money (<$10 million/year) is more than Kelly can get is ridiculous, and Anderson is the best example of a great young 3 point shooter who came off the bench and became a FA in the new cap climate

I agree the guy is trolling.  If he is basing his argument off the fact that Delly got paid just wait and see what KO gets.  KO is the best 3pt shooting big in the game.  Dude is gonna get paid WAY more then Delly.
He is... if you don't count Dirk, Ryan Anderson, Chris Bosh, and Kevin Love. And then there are Scola, Frye, and Leonard that are arguably at least as good.

The highest 3p% among the first 4 was Dirk at 36.8% (while Kelly was at 40.5%), and only Love and Anderson had more 3pa/36

Source: http://bkref.com/tiny/gtJ0R

The next group has much better percentages than the first, but Kelly still beats all of them (although Scola at 40.4% is essentially the same, but at much lower volume).  Frye and Leonard both beat him for 3pa, but their percentages are significantly lower

Source: http://bkref.com/tiny/8WvcE

Unfortunately, I couldn't fit them all on one page, so the comparisons are separate
Two other things you need to take into account: (1)  track record, and (2) volume. Otherwise, your best three-point shooting big will clearly be Enes Kanter.

I took volume into account, but due to the huge minutes played range I used 3pa per36.  Given that they each played a good amount of minutes each game, that should even things out

I certainly don't think KO is the best 3 point shooting big (I'd take Dirk every day and twice on Sundays), but also don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that he might be.  He shot the lights out last year, and if he repeats that this year he'll have a good case for it (depending on how others do as well)
I'm bitter.

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #126 on: August 30, 2016, 12:25:00 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I actually forgot that Robert Covington and Matthew Dellavedova were undrafted but otherwise in the 2013 draft.  A fairly strong argument could be made that both would be ahead of Olynyk in a re-draft as well.

No it couldn't.  Delle is a backup pg who wouldn't start for any good team that didn't have LeBron Janes.  Covington was a marginal rotation player on one of the worst teams in league history.

Mike
Dellavedova just signed a large contract.  He has shot over 40% from three point range the last two years.  Last time I checked, Olynyk was a back-up as well, whose claim to fame is being a worse three point shooter than Dellavedova.

Covington is a SF that is a good defender (and far better than KO), currently a better rebounder, etc.  Covington shoots too many threes, but is a quality shooter from there (not as good as KO, but shoots a much higher volume playing on a worse team so doesn't have as many open/good looks as KO). 

You guys act like Olynyk is a future all star.  He isn't.  He is a back-up who barely averaged 20 minutes a game last year, and who got worse pretty much everywhere except 3 point shooter from his 2nd to 3rd year.  KO is a back-up for a reason.  That is his end game.  He will never be much more than he is now i.e. good shooting range, ok passer, but terrible rebounder and below average defender.  Maybe Delly will only ever be a back-up also, but he is a better three point shooter and a better defender.  Covington has actually shown the ability to be a respectable starter, playing starters minutes with solid production.  Yeah, the Sixers were terrible, but not all terrible teams are comprised of entirely terrible players.  Covington's skill set would transfer very well to pretty much any team.

Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #127 on: August 30, 2016, 12:43:58 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.
So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #128 on: August 30, 2016, 12:55:05 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.
So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #129 on: August 30, 2016, 01:00:04 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.
So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike

Yea I mean seriously. Covington was literally offered to us for nothing a few months ago and nobody even cared. Are you saying people wouldn't be more excited if the offer was Olynik, Noel and two first rounders for the 3rd pick we wouldn't have been a little more interested? Will be curious how long Covington even lasts in the league outside of Philly.

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #130 on: August 30, 2016, 01:01:21 PM »

Offline incoherent

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The fact that there is a debate on whether or not KO is or could be the best 3 shooting big in the league 100% proves that half this thread is a completely waste of time.


Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #131 on: August 30, 2016, 01:06:57 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The fact that there is a debate on whether or not KO is or could be the best 3 shooting big in the league 100% proves that half this thread is a completely waste of time.

do you feel like there should be no debate?

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #132 on: August 30, 2016, 01:18:39 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.
So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike
The fact that Covington on a 10 win team had more Defensive win shares than Olynyk did on a 48 win team shows the vast discrepancy in their defensive ability and prowess.  I mean you do understand that win shares are based on actual wins and yet use those as some sort of example that Olynyk is better, shows the absurdity of your position.  Of course, you hold Covington's increased role on a bad team against him, but don't also recognize that playing a lesser role on a better team helps the efficiency of Olynyk.  It does work both ways. 

Here is their seasons last year http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=olynyke01&y2=2016&p2=covinro01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Statistically, Olynyk is a better shooter from the field, passer, and doesn't turn it over as much (though doesn't have the ball as much either).  Covington is the better foul shooter, rebounder and steal generator.  They are about the same in shot blocking and personal fouls.

Given however, that Covington has shown he can play starter minutes/role and is a better defender, it certainly is reasonable to assume a GM would take Covington over Olynyk. 
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Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #133 on: August 30, 2016, 01:36:16 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Lol at Covington! Grab some popcorn fellas, Moranis is spinning his yarn.
So perhaps you can kindly explain what Kelly Olynyk has done that makes him better than Robert Covington right now?

Covington 2015-2016 stats.
PER 13.2
OWS -.1
DSW 2.1

KO 2015-2016 stats
PER 16.3
OWS 2.1
DWS 2.0

And, of course, you can add in that KO has been playing in a competitive environment while Covington has essentially been putting up stats for a glorified YMCA team.

There are more people around here than you can shake a stick at who talk like they understand basketball but then aggressively refuse to examine the most basic evidence before shooting their mouths off.

Mike
The fact that Covington on a 10 win team had more Defensive win shares than Olynyk did on a 48 win team shows the vast discrepancy in their defensive ability and prowess. 

And you just showed that you don't under stand anything.  That's not how defensive win shares work, as evidenced by the fact that a vastly better defender on the Celtics like Avery Bradley had a DWS last season of 2.8 to Kelly's 2.0 or that Jared Sullinger had a 3.6 DWS last season to Nerlens Noel's 2.8.

Do you even actually watch basketball?

Mike

Re: Anyone upset about the wasted assets?
« Reply #134 on: August 30, 2016, 01:40:31 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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you slay me moranis. You realize the number of players that had inflated stats from that 76ers team and can't acknowledge it yet?

Do you think Isaiah Canaan is going to have a long career averaging 11 to 12 points a game like he has on their jv team?

Do you not notice that Ish Smith was a marginal rotation player for 6 (6!) teams in 4 years never averaging more than 4.5 points a game and all of a sudden averaged 12 points and 14.5 points for the 76ers?

Did you notice how Luc Mbah a Moute started 61 games and averaged close to 10 points a game for the 76ers in 2014-2015? He then goes to the Clippers and averaged 3 a game. Yes he is a solid defensive player again we see how inflated these averages get playing for a terrible team.

What about MCW averaging 15 for the 76ers then immedietely plummeting to back up for a meh Bucks team?

Or who could forget old friend Tony Wroten averaging 16 points for the 76ers and then being waived twice this summer alone.

Look Covington might stick around as a backup whenever he gets to a real team, but he is not as good as KO and I have a really hard time believing that you believe that (especially as you see all these vaunted 76ers role players(in your mind only)  stumble out of the league in the next few years.