Are you more excited about seeing Brown than you were about seeing Marcus...

[GratefulCs]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

When you compare Randle's ceiling to something a bit above Smart's floor then yeah, Randle wins. Nice job.

They are both presumably at their floors.  Seems it's a tossup which floor is better.  Apparently NBA2k16 thinks Randle's floor is better, for instance.   Yet to be seen if either will improve beyond their floor.  We've only seen 1 season out of Randle.  We've seen 2 out of Smart and in some ways he regressed.

That really doesnt respond to the idea that your comparison was dumb. Right now Randle could be a Jared Sullinger level guy, while Smart has the potential to turn into a Chauncey Billups or a Mike Conley. You dont take Jared Sullinger over Chauncy Billups or Mike Conley.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Randle is arguably better now and may be better long-term.

you wrote that you dont draft Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph.

You don't draft the next Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph. 

The comment was made that Smart basically looked exactly like Tony Allen in College and that all anyone should have expected him to become was Tony Allen:

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

... the suggestion there is that it was foolish to expect him to ever be anything more than Tony Allen long term... but obviously people expected him to be more than Tony Allen.   

My point was, if they really thought he was going to develop into the next Tony Allen, they wouldn't have taken him 6th.  Clearly they had higher expectations than him developing into the next Tony Allen.  You don't draft a guy who projects to be the next Tony Allen over a guy who projects to be the next Zach Randolph (Randle).

Not sure where you got the idea we were comparing Smart's floor to Randle's ceiling. 

Again, my comment was:  "If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th."  They wanted a star there, not a long-term role player.

So basically, I disagree with what IDreamCeltic is saying.    Everyone expected more from Smart than "the next Tony Allen".   Some people were comparing him to Westbrook, Evans, Harden, Wade, etc.   He was widely thought at the time to have star potential... hence why he went 6th.  He's been a disappointment thus far.  Hopefully he makes a major leap soon.  If he peaks out at Tony Allen, that's a big disappointment considering we used a #6 pick on him.

Obviously, Smart isn't as good as Tony Allen yet and Randle isn't as good as Randolph yet.  We were always referring to what could develop into.

From what I remember, people were exploding when you compared Smart to Tony Allen during his rookie season. So in that sense, I can't imagine any of the posters really expecting Smart was going to be a future role player. TBH, I hated the pick. I never liked Smart because of his physical limitations. No vert or first step. Loved his intangibles though. I was hoping the guy could at least average 15 a game for his career but he has been a disappointment.

Also, I made a thread last year on the Smart vs. Randle debate. Thank you for bringing the truth on this board. That guy could be better. Smart wouldn't even start on the Lakers either, haha. People on this thread are blind I think. Randle is right there, if not better already. Also Randle would start on this team, while Smart doesn't as well. So again, people need to get their green goggles checked and actually hold Smart accountable. There is so much he can improve upon and hasn't.

randle wouldn't start on the sixers


This is fun!

[tankcity!]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

When you compare Randle's ceiling to something a bit above Smart's floor then yeah, Randle wins. Nice job.

They are both presumably at their floors.  Seems it's a tossup which floor is better.  Apparently NBA2k16 thinks Randle's floor is better, for instance.   Yet to be seen if either will improve beyond their floor.  We've only seen 1 season out of Randle.  We've seen 2 out of Smart and in some ways he regressed.

That really doesnt respond to the idea that your comparison was dumb. Right now Randle could be a Jared Sullinger level guy, while Smart has the potential to turn into a Chauncey Billups or a Mike Conley. You dont take Jared Sullinger over Chauncy Billups or Mike Conley.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Randle is arguably better now and may be better long-term.

you wrote that you dont draft Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph.

You don't draft the next Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph. 

The comment was made that Smart basically looked exactly like Tony Allen in College and that all anyone should have expected him to become was Tony Allen:

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

... the suggestion there is that it was foolish to expect him to ever be anything more than Tony Allen long term... but obviously people expected him to be more than Tony Allen.   

My point was, if they really thought he was going to develop into the next Tony Allen, they wouldn't have taken him 6th.  Clearly they had higher expectations than him developing into the next Tony Allen.  You don't draft a guy who projects to be the next Tony Allen over a guy who projects to be the next Zach Randolph (Randle).

Not sure where you got the idea we were comparing Smart's floor to Randle's ceiling. 

Again, my comment was:  "If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th."  They wanted a star there, not a long-term role player.

So basically, I disagree with what IDreamCeltic is saying.    Everyone expected more from Smart than "the next Tony Allen".   Some people were comparing him to Westbrook, Evans, Harden, Wade, etc.   He was widely thought at the time to have star potential... hence why he went 6th.  He's been a disappointment thus far.  Hopefully he makes a major leap soon.  If he peaks out at Tony Allen, that's a big disappointment considering we used a #6 pick on him.

Obviously, Smart isn't as good as Tony Allen yet and Randle isn't as good as Randolph yet.  We were always referring to what could develop into.

From what I remember, people were exploding when you compared Smart to Tony Allen during his rookie season. So in that sense, I can't imagine any of the posters really expecting Smart was going to be a future role player. TBH, I hated the pick. I never liked Smart because of his physical limitations. No vert or first step. Loved his intangibles though. I was hoping the guy could at least average 15 a game for his career but he has been a disappointment.

Also, I made a thread last year on the Smart vs. Randle debate. Thank you for bringing the truth on this board. That guy could be better. Smart wouldn't even start on the Lakers either, haha. People on this thread are blind I think. Randle is right there, if not better already. Also Randle would start on this team, while Smart doesn't as well. So again, people need to get their green goggles checked and actually hold Smart accountable. There is so much he can improve upon and hasn't.

randle wouldn't start on the sixers


This is fun!

Well he might if they put Simmons at SF which they could and they actually might do that this year tbh. Cause they would start Noel with Okafor. Or Saric.

[chilidawg]

The ultimate gang that couldn't shoot straight!

[GratefulCs]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

When you compare Randle's ceiling to something a bit above Smart's floor then yeah, Randle wins. Nice job.

They are both presumably at their floors.  Seems it's a tossup which floor is better.  Apparently NBA2k16 thinks Randle's floor is better, for instance.   Yet to be seen if either will improve beyond their floor.  We've only seen 1 season out of Randle.  We've seen 2 out of Smart and in some ways he regressed.

That really doesnt respond to the idea that your comparison was dumb. Right now Randle could be a Jared Sullinger level guy, while Smart has the potential to turn into a Chauncey Billups or a Mike Conley. You dont take Jared Sullinger over Chauncy Billups or Mike Conley.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Randle is arguably better now and may be better long-term.

you wrote that you dont draft Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph.

You don't draft the next Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph. 

The comment was made that Smart basically looked exactly like Tony Allen in College and that all anyone should have expected him to become was Tony Allen:

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

... the suggestion there is that it was foolish to expect him to ever be anything more than Tony Allen long term... but obviously people expected him to be more than Tony Allen.   

My point was, if they really thought he was going to develop into the next Tony Allen, they wouldn't have taken him 6th.  Clearly they had higher expectations than him developing into the next Tony Allen.  You don't draft a guy who projects to be the next Tony Allen over a guy who projects to be the next Zach Randolph (Randle).

Not sure where you got the idea we were comparing Smart's floor to Randle's ceiling. 

Again, my comment was:  "If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th."  They wanted a star there, not a long-term role player.

So basically, I disagree with what IDreamCeltic is saying.    Everyone expected more from Smart than "the next Tony Allen".   Some people were comparing him to Westbrook, Evans, Harden, Wade, etc.   He was widely thought at the time to have star potential... hence why he went 6th.  He's been a disappointment thus far.  Hopefully he makes a major leap soon.  If he peaks out at Tony Allen, that's a big disappointment considering we used a #6 pick on him.

Obviously, Smart isn't as good as Tony Allen yet and Randle isn't as good as Randolph yet.  We were always referring to what could develop into.

From what I remember, people were exploding when you compared Smart to Tony Allen during his rookie season. So in that sense, I can't imagine any of the posters really expecting Smart was going to be a future role player. TBH, I hated the pick. I never liked Smart because of his physical limitations. No vert or first step. Loved his intangibles though. I was hoping the guy could at least average 15 a game for his career but he has been a disappointment.

Also, I made a thread last year on the Smart vs. Randle debate. Thank you for bringing the truth on this board. That guy could be better. Smart wouldn't even start on the Lakers either, haha. People on this thread are blind I think. Randle is right there, if not better already. Also Randle would start on this team, while Smart doesn't as well. So again, people need to get their green goggles checked and actually hold Smart accountable. There is so much he can improve upon and hasn't.

randle wouldn't start on the sixers


This is fun!

Well he might if they put Simmons at SF which they could and they actually might do that this year tbh. Cause they would start Noel with Okafor. Or Saric.

all i'm saying is that i like smart. I would have liked randle if he were on the celtics. Once these guys are 28 then we can make a fair assesment of who's better.

By the way, MAJOR TP for your koz quote in your sig. How could anyone not think we're better this year? (If healthy)

[alldaboston]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

When you compare Randle's ceiling to something a bit above Smart's floor then yeah, Randle wins. Nice job.

They are both presumably at their floors.  Seems it's a tossup which floor is better.  Apparently NBA2k16 thinks Randle's floor is better, for instance.   Yet to be seen if either will improve beyond their floor.  We've only seen 1 season out of Randle.  We've seen 2 out of Smart and in some ways he regressed.

That really doesnt respond to the idea that your comparison was dumb. Right now Randle could be a Jared Sullinger level guy, while Smart has the potential to turn into a Chauncey Billups or a Mike Conley. You dont take Jared Sullinger over Chauncy Billups or Mike Conley.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Randle is arguably better now and may be better long-term.

you wrote that you dont draft Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph.

You don't draft the next Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph. 

The comment was made that Smart basically looked exactly like Tony Allen in College and that all anyone should have expected him to become was Tony Allen:

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

... the suggestion there is that it was foolish to expect him to ever be anything more than Tony Allen long term... but obviously people expected him to be more than Tony Allen.   

My point was, if they really thought he was going to develop into the next Tony Allen, they wouldn't have taken him 6th.  Clearly they had higher expectations than him developing into the next Tony Allen.  You don't draft a guy who projects to be the next Tony Allen over a guy who projects to be the next Zach Randolph (Randle).

Not sure where you got the idea we were comparing Smart's floor to Randle's ceiling. 

Again, my comment was:  "If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th."  They wanted a star there, not a long-term role player.

So basically, I disagree with what IDreamCeltic is saying.    Everyone expected more from Smart than "the next Tony Allen".   Some people were comparing him to Westbrook, Evans, Harden, Wade, etc.   He was widely thought at the time to have star potential... hence why he went 6th.  He's been a disappointment thus far.  Hopefully he makes a major leap soon.  If he peaks out at Tony Allen, that's a big disappointment considering we used a #6 pick on him.

Obviously, Smart isn't as good as Tony Allen yet and Randle isn't as good as Randolph yet.  We were always referring to what could develop into.

From what I remember, people were exploding when you compared Smart to Tony Allen during his rookie season. So in that sense, I can't imagine any of the posters really expecting Smart was going to be a future role player. TBH, I hated the pick. I never liked Smart because of his physical limitations. No vert or first step. Loved his intangibles though. I was hoping the guy could at least average 15 a game for his career but he has been a disappointment.

Also, I made a thread last year on the Smart vs. Randle debate. Thank you for bringing the truth on this board. That guy could be better. Smart wouldn't even start on the Lakers either, haha. People on this thread are blind I think. Randle is right there, if not better already. Also Randle would start on this team, while Smart doesn't as well. So again, people need to get their green goggles checked and actually hold Smart accountable. There is so much he can improve upon and hasn't.

No Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. he wouldn't. They already have d'angelo Russell. Someone who I'm pretty sure everyone on this board can acknowledge is a much better prospect than Smart.

Randle would not in any circumstance start on this team. Don't look at just the stats dude. I watch a lot of Lakers basketball (I get their channel). Randle can't defend, can't pass, can't shoot jumpers, doesn't have a right hand. Frankly, if I were to choose between Randle and Nance Jr (the guy they picked last year right before RJ), I'd take Nance. He's a great defender, hustle guy, affects the game in many ways, and has developed a nice jumper (albeit it was just summer league). He also has incredible chemistry with Russell in the PnR and is an adequate rebounder too.

[tankcity!]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

When you compare Randle's ceiling to something a bit above Smart's floor then yeah, Randle wins. Nice job.

They are both presumably at their floors.  Seems it's a tossup which floor is better.  Apparently NBA2k16 thinks Randle's floor is better, for instance.   Yet to be seen if either will improve beyond their floor.  We've only seen 1 season out of Randle.  We've seen 2 out of Smart and in some ways he regressed.

That really doesnt respond to the idea that your comparison was dumb. Right now Randle could be a Jared Sullinger level guy, while Smart has the potential to turn into a Chauncey Billups or a Mike Conley. You dont take Jared Sullinger over Chauncy Billups or Mike Conley.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Randle is arguably better now and may be better long-term.

you wrote that you dont draft Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph.

You don't draft the next Tony Allen over the next Zach Randolph. 

The comment was made that Smart basically looked exactly like Tony Allen in College and that all anyone should have expected him to become was Tony Allen:

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

... the suggestion there is that it was foolish to expect him to ever be anything more than Tony Allen long term... but obviously people expected him to be more than Tony Allen.   

My point was, if they really thought he was going to develop into the next Tony Allen, they wouldn't have taken him 6th.  Clearly they had higher expectations than him developing into the next Tony Allen.  You don't draft a guy who projects to be the next Tony Allen over a guy who projects to be the next Zach Randolph (Randle).

Not sure where you got the idea we were comparing Smart's floor to Randle's ceiling. 

Again, my comment was:  "If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th."  They wanted a star there, not a long-term role player.

So basically, I disagree with what IDreamCeltic is saying.    Everyone expected more from Smart than "the next Tony Allen".   Some people were comparing him to Westbrook, Evans, Harden, Wade, etc.   He was widely thought at the time to have star potential... hence why he went 6th.  He's been a disappointment thus far.  Hopefully he makes a major leap soon.  If he peaks out at Tony Allen, that's a big disappointment considering we used a #6 pick on him.

Obviously, Smart isn't as good as Tony Allen yet and Randle isn't as good as Randolph yet.  We were always referring to what could develop into.

From what I remember, people were exploding when you compared Smart to Tony Allen during his rookie season. So in that sense, I can't imagine any of the posters really expecting Smart was going to be a future role player. TBH, I hated the pick. I never liked Smart because of his physical limitations. No vert or first step. Loved his intangibles though. I was hoping the guy could at least average 15 a game for his career but he has been a disappointment.

Also, I made a thread last year on the Smart vs. Randle debate. Thank you for bringing the truth on this board. That guy could be better. Smart wouldn't even start on the Lakers either, haha. People on this thread are blind I think. Randle is right there, if not better already. Also Randle would start on this team, while Smart doesn't as well. So again, people need to get their green goggles checked and actually hold Smart accountable. There is so much he can improve upon and hasn't.

No **** he wouldn't. They already have d'angelo Russell. Someone who I'm pretty sure everyone on this board can acknowledge is a much better prospect than Smart.

Randle would not in any circumstance start on this team. Don't look at just the stats dude. I watch a lot of Lakers basketball (I get their channel). Randle can't defend, can't pass, can't shoot jumpers, doesn't have a right hand. Frankly, if I were to choose between Randle and Nance Jr (the guy they picked last year right before RJ), I'd take Nance. He's a great defender, hustle guy, affects the game in many ways, and has developed a nice jumper (albeit it was just summer league). He also has incredible chemistry with Russell in the PnR and is an adequate rebounder too.

I'm not a randle fan either. I've only seen highlights but hate his short arms. He powered people through in college and will struggle to do the same in the NBA. I'm just saying it's up for debate and something to watch out for in the future. Me personally, I wanted Randle during the draft because his trade value would be higher IMO.

Also, yes I really can't say for sure he would start on the Celtics. Maybe his defense is that bad that is beyond repair. My brain is telling me if we can have KO defend on this team, why can't he? But I haven't watched him play enough to really speak to it.

[LarBrd33]

 Here's the problem. If we actually did think he wouldn't be any better than Tony Allen, I say we still draft him.

 I agree we expected him to be better, but you can't knock him for drafting Tony Allen 2.0

 The fact is there was no better choice at the sixth spot in that horrible draft. Yeah I said Horrible. Wiggins and Parker were the two big names and that remains true.

 It was Randle or Smart and we chose right, especially for our needs.

 Oklahoma state producing some fine defenders though.

 Per 40 Stats College sophmore year.

 Tony Allen 20.3 ppg 7rpg 4apg 2.6 spg
                     .504% .297% .675%

        Smart. 22ppg 7.2rpg 5.8apg 3.5spg
                     .422% .299% .728%

 Same college, both sophomores, very comparable numbers with Tony having a bug advantage with Fg% probably because he's a quicker and better overall athlete than Marcus.

 Same crappy 3p%, and Smart is the slightly better defender. If the Celtics new they were getting Tony Allen all over again, I say they were fine with that plain and simple.

 Even with the benefit oh Heinsight the only guys in tge discussion at #6 in the lottery were.

 #7 Randle
 #8 Stuaskas
 #9 Vonleh
 #10 Payton
 #11 Doug Mcbuckets
 #12 Saric
 #13 Lavine

 So you tell me LB, or anyone else, who the heck do you want out if that list.

I'm still fine with the pick even though Smart right now is a poor man's Tony Allen.  He's still really young.  I'm hopeful he makes a leap next year.    It's true I wanted Randle over him, but I wasn't all that upset about the pick given our roster construction at the time.  And I'm not all that upset about the pick now.  Randle has only one season under his belt and there's a chance he doesn't make significant improvements either. 

The main point was that expectations for Smart were pretty high back in 2014.  Tony Allen was seen as a worst-case scenario... and it still is.   Most people saw him as having all-star potential.  He was believed to be an NBA-ready player who would make an impact on both ends immediately despite weak shooting in College.    He's been disappointing so far, but it's still early. 

Expectations are lower for Jaylen Brown than they were from Smart.  In-part, because he's seen as a lesser prospect than Smart was.  In-part, because fans have already been burned by Smart and have lowered expectations for Jaylen as a result.   Nobody anticipates Jaylen starting anytime next year.   For the most part, people expect that he's a long-term project that hopefully makes some defensive contributions off the bench.  This should be a top team in the East without relying on Brown so he really doesn't have any pressure to perform.  When Smart entered, he was thought to be the guy who was going to take the reigns from Rondo as "the man".  Despite expectations being lower for Brown, many of us (myself included) are more excited about Jaylen Brown than we were about Smart in 2014 or Smart in 2015.   Jaylen is more mysterious.  His age adds to his allure.  His physical attributes and potential skillset are intriguing.  Yeah, he might end up more Kedrick Brown/Gerald Green than Jimmy Butler/Tracy McGrady, but right now I'm super excited to watch what he can develop into.   Despite how either Smart or Brown were looked at by experts, I have higher hopes for the raw mystery box that is Jaylen Brown than I was for the 6'4 defensive roleplaying bricklayer that people thought could develop into a star back in 2014.

Yeah but just by looking at the numbers don't you think the experts are kind of stupid for thinking that smart was going to be so much better than Tony Allen.

Well... yes...  which is why tankcity so kindly points out that I was expressing concern before Smart's rookie season that he might peak out as Tony Allen... and why I'm admitting that I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown in 2016 than I ever was in 2014 about Smart - primarily because I was never really as sold on expert predictions that Smart was going to be the next Tyreke Evans and be "the man" right out of the gate.   But as tankcity kindly points out, people were labeling me a troll for comparing Smart to Tony Allen back then (typical).  WHy?  Because the vast majority of experts and people on this forum had far, far greater expectations of Marcus SMart than him developing into the next Tony Allen.   You don't take the next Tony Allen 6th in a loaded draft.   He was widely believed to have star potential.  He still might.

That's why it's a bit concerning that we're two years into Smart's career and he's not yet as good as Tony Allen was in his prime.  We still have far greater hopes for Smart than that.  I really hope he makes a leap next year. 

And for those who are confused... yes, I'm aware you watched Tony Allen when he played on the Celtics.  From 2011-2016, Allen was a 5x All-Defense player.  His peak happened AFTER he left the Celtics, so I don't blame anyone here for being unfamiliar with it.   It would be like saying, "Jaylen Brown might be the next Joe Johnson" and someone here saying "Joe Johnson sucks!  He couldn't stay as a starter for us!"...

Tony Allen's peak:   All-Defense 1st team
Marcus Smart:  No All-Defense selection

Tony Allen career:  48% FG/28% 3P
Smart last year:  35% FG/25% 3P

We could waste more time debating if Smart is near Tony Allen's defensive role player peak right now, but it's honestly pretty depressing.  Despite my concerns at the time, most here had far greater expectations for Smart   We all hope that Smart makes a major leap past Tony Allen territory next year and makes the comp irrelevant. 

So yeah, I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown than I was about Smart despite the fact most experts saw Smart as a superior prospect than what they see Brown as.  I worried that Smart would do what he's ended up doing.   With Brown, I have some worries as well, but he's raw and young enough that I'm just excited about the unknown.
 

[rollie mass]

 i get tired of defending marcus to critics that don't take into consideration smarts injury history
smart was a rookie caught up in a merry go round of new players, while losing rondo and green
then you have that high ankle sprain that kept him off the court for a large part of season and when he did comeback his lift was hampered,marcus was in pain till mid summer-marcus shot 33 % from 3
2nd summer league dislocated fingers ,then a dis located knee that kept him out till new year--stats were badly effected and his shooting was hampered by both injuries
if you played basketball at any high level, you will know how those injuries effected his first two years-
-healthy this year with a full summer working on his shot-
there were two recent articles that have finally in print recognized his injuries-
about time

[Eja117]

i get tired of defending marcus to critics that don't take into consideration smarts injury history
smart was a rookie caught up in a merry go round of new players, while losing rondo and green
then you have that high ankle sprain that kept him off the court for a large part of season and when he did comeback his lift was hampered,marcus was in pain till mid summer-marcus shot 33 % from 3
2nd summer league dislocated fingers ,then a dis located knee that kept him out till new year--stats were badly effected and his shooting was hampered by both injuries
if you played basketball at any high level, you will know how those injuries effected his first two years-
-healthy this year with a full summer working on his shot-
there were two recent articles that have finally in print recognized his injuries-
about time

When a guy plays completely out of control a lot to the point he frequently injures himself....that matters

[celticsclay]

 Here's the problem. If we actually did think he wouldn't be any better than Tony Allen, I say we still draft him.

 I agree we expected him to be better, but you can't knock him for drafting Tony Allen 2.0

 The fact is there was no better choice at the sixth spot in that horrible draft. Yeah I said Horrible. Wiggins and Parker were the two big names and that remains true.

 It was Randle or Smart and we chose right, especially for our needs.

 Oklahoma state producing some fine defenders though.

 Per 40 Stats College sophmore year.

 Tony Allen 20.3 ppg 7rpg 4apg 2.6 spg
                     .504% .297% .675%

        Smart. 22ppg 7.2rpg 5.8apg 3.5spg
                     .422% .299% .728%

 Same college, both sophomores, very comparable numbers with Tony having a bug advantage with Fg% probably because he's a quicker and better overall athlete than Marcus.

 Same crappy 3p%, and Smart is the slightly better defender. If the Celtics new they were getting Tony Allen all over again, I say they were fine with that plain and simple.

 Even with the benefit oh Heinsight the only guys in tge discussion at #6 in the lottery were.

 #7 Randle
 #8 Stuaskas
 #9 Vonleh
 #10 Payton
 #11 Doug Mcbuckets
 #12 Saric
 #13 Lavine

 So you tell me LB, or anyone else, who the heck do you want out if that list.

I'm still fine with the pick even though Smart right now is a poor man's Tony Allen.  He's still really young.  I'm hopeful he makes a leap next year.    It's true I wanted Randle over him, but I wasn't all that upset about the pick given our roster construction at the time.  And I'm not all that upset about the pick now.  Randle has only one season under his belt and there's a chance he doesn't make significant improvements either. 

The main point was that expectations for Smart were pretty high back in 2014.  Tony Allen was seen as a worst-case scenario... and it still is.   Most people saw him as having all-star potential.  He was believed to be an NBA-ready player who would make an impact on both ends immediately despite weak shooting in College.    He's been disappointing so far, but it's still early. 

Expectations are lower for Jaylen Brown than they were from Smart.  In-part, because he's seen as a lesser prospect than Smart was.  In-part, because fans have already been burned by Smart and have lowered expectations for Jaylen as a result.   Nobody anticipates Jaylen starting anytime next year.   For the most part, people expect that he's a long-term project that hopefully makes some defensive contributions off the bench.  This should be a top team in the East without relying on Brown so he really doesn't have any pressure to perform.  When Smart entered, he was thought to be the guy who was going to take the reigns from Rondo as "the man".  Despite expectations being lower for Brown, many of us (myself included) are more excited about Jaylen Brown than we were about Smart in 2014 or Smart in 2015.   Jaylen is more mysterious.  His age adds to his allure.  His physical attributes and potential skillset are intriguing.  Yeah, he might end up more Kedrick Brown/Gerald Green than Jimmy Butler/Tracy McGrady, but right now I'm super excited to watch what he can develop into.   Despite how either Smart or Brown were looked at by experts, I have higher hopes for the raw mystery box that is Jaylen Brown than I was for the 6'4 defensive roleplaying bricklayer that people thought could develop into a star back in 2014.

Yeah but just by looking at the numbers don't you think the experts are kind of stupid for thinking that smart was going to be so much better than Tony Allen.

Well... yes...  which is why tankcity so kindly points out that I was expressing concern before Smart's rookie season that he might peak out as Tony Allen... and why I'm admitting that I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown in 2016 than I ever was in 2014 about Smart - primarily because I was never really as sold on expert predictions that Smart was going to be the next Tyreke Evans and be "the man" right out of the gate.   But as tankcity kindly points out, people were labeling me a troll for comparing Smart to Tony Allen back then (typical).  WHy?  Because the vast majority of experts and people on this forum had far, far greater expectations of Marcus SMart than him developing into the next Tony Allen.   You don't take the next Tony Allen 6th in a loaded draft.   He was widely believed to have star potential.  He still might.

That's why it's a bit concerning that we're two years into Smart's career and he's not yet as good as Tony Allen was in his prime.  We still have far greater hopes for Smart than that.  I really hope he makes a leap next year. 

And for those who are confused... yes, I'm aware you watched Tony Allen when he played on the Celtics.  From 2011-2016, Allen was a 5x All-Defense player.  His peak happened AFTER he left the Celtics, so I don't blame anyone here for being unfamiliar with it.   It would be like saying, "Jaylen Brown might be the next Joe Johnson" and someone here saying "Joe Johnson sucks!  He couldn't stay as a starter for us!"...

Tony Allen's peak:   All-Defense 1st team
Marcus Smart:  No All-Defense selection

Tony Allen career:  48% FG/28% 3P
Smart last year:  35% FG/25% 3P

We could waste more time debating if Smart is near Tony Allen's defensive role player peak right now, but it's honestly pretty depressing.  Despite my concerns at the time, most here had far greater expectations for Smart   We all hope that Smart makes a major leap past Tony Allen territory next year and makes the comp irrelevant. 

So yeah, I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown than I was about Smart despite the fact most experts saw Smart as a superior prospect than what they see Brown as.  I worried that Smart would do what he's ended up doing.   With Brown, I have some worries as well, but he's raw and young enough that I'm just excited about the unknown.
 

plus all the tiers. all the tiers.
tears

[Ilikesports17]

 Here's the problem. If we actually did think he wouldn't be any better than Tony Allen, I say we still draft him.

 I agree we expected him to be better, but you can't knock him for drafting Tony Allen 2.0

 The fact is there was no better choice at the sixth spot in that horrible draft. Yeah I said Horrible. Wiggins and Parker were the two big names and that remains true.

 It was Randle or Smart and we chose right, especially for our needs.

 Oklahoma state producing some fine defenders though.

 Per 40 Stats College sophmore year.

 Tony Allen 20.3 ppg 7rpg 4apg 2.6 spg
                     .504% .297% .675%

        Smart. 22ppg 7.2rpg 5.8apg 3.5spg
                     .422% .299% .728%

 Same college, both sophomores, very comparable numbers with Tony having a bug advantage with Fg% probably because he's a quicker and better overall athlete than Marcus.

 Same crappy 3p%, and Smart is the slightly better defender. If the Celtics new they were getting Tony Allen all over again, I say they were fine with that plain and simple.

 Even with the benefit oh Heinsight the only guys in tge discussion at #6 in the lottery were.

 #7 Randle
 #8 Stuaskas
 #9 Vonleh
 #10 Payton
 #11 Doug Mcbuckets
 #12 Saric
 #13 Lavine

 So you tell me LB, or anyone else, who the heck do you want out if that list.

I'm still fine with the pick even though Smart right now is a poor man's Tony Allen.  He's still really young.  I'm hopeful he makes a leap next year.    It's true I wanted Randle over him, but I wasn't all that upset about the pick given our roster construction at the time.  And I'm not all that upset about the pick now.  Randle has only one season under his belt and there's a chance he doesn't make significant improvements either. 

The main point was that expectations for Smart were pretty high back in 2014.  Tony Allen was seen as a worst-case scenario... and it still is.   Most people saw him as having all-star potential.  He was believed to be an NBA-ready player who would make an impact on both ends immediately despite weak shooting in College.    He's been disappointing so far, but it's still early. 

Expectations are lower for Jaylen Brown than they were from Smart.  In-part, because he's seen as a lesser prospect than Smart was.  In-part, because fans have already been burned by Smart and have lowered expectations for Jaylen as a result.   Nobody anticipates Jaylen starting anytime next year.   For the most part, people expect that he's a long-term project that hopefully makes some defensive contributions off the bench.  This should be a top team in the East without relying on Brown so he really doesn't have any pressure to perform.  When Smart entered, he was thought to be the guy who was going to take the reigns from Rondo as "the man".  Despite expectations being lower for Brown, many of us (myself included) are more excited about Jaylen Brown than we were about Smart in 2014 or Smart in 2015.   Jaylen is more mysterious.  His age adds to his allure.  His physical attributes and potential skillset are intriguing.  Yeah, he might end up more Kedrick Brown/Gerald Green than Jimmy Butler/Tracy McGrady, but right now I'm super excited to watch what he can develop into.   Despite how either Smart or Brown were looked at by experts, I have higher hopes for the raw mystery box that is Jaylen Brown than I was for the 6'4 defensive roleplaying bricklayer that people thought could develop into a star back in 2014.

Yeah but just by looking at the numbers don't you think the experts are kind of stupid for thinking that smart was going to be so much better than Tony Allen.

Well... yes...  which is why tankcity so kindly points out that I was expressing concern before Smart's rookie season that he might peak out as Tony Allen... and why I'm admitting that I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown in 2016 than I ever was in 2014 about Smart - primarily because I was never really as sold on expert predictions that Smart was going to be the next Tyreke Evans and be "the man" right out of the gate.   But as tankcity kindly points out, people were labeling me a troll for comparing Smart to Tony Allen back then (typical).  WHy?  Because the vast majority of experts and people on this forum had far, far greater expectations of Marcus SMart than him developing into the next Tony Allen.   You don't take the next Tony Allen 6th in a loaded draft.   He was widely believed to have star potential.  He still might.

That's why it's a bit concerning that we're two years into Smart's career and he's not yet as good as Tony Allen was in his prime.  We still have far greater hopes for Smart than that.  I really hope he makes a leap next year. 

And for those who are confused... yes, I'm aware you watched Tony Allen when he played on the Celtics.  From 2011-2016, Allen was a 5x All-Defense player.  His peak happened AFTER he left the Celtics, so I don't blame anyone here for being unfamiliar with it.   It would be like saying, "Jaylen Brown might be the next Joe Johnson" and someone here saying "Joe Johnson sucks!  He couldn't stay as a starter for us!"...

Tony Allen's peak:   All-Defense 1st team
Marcus Smart:  No All-Defense selection

Tony Allen career:  48% FG/28% 3P
Smart last year:  35% FG/25% 3P

We could waste more time debating if Smart is near Tony Allen's defensive role player peak right now, but it's honestly pretty depressing.  Despite my concerns at the time, most here had far greater expectations for Smart   We all hope that Smart makes a major leap past Tony Allen territory next year and makes the comp irrelevant. 

So yeah, I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown than I was about Smart despite the fact most experts saw Smart as a superior prospect than what they see Brown as.  I worried that Smart would do what he's ended up doing.   With Brown, I have some worries as well, but he's raw and young enough that I'm just excited about the unknown.
 

How dare you disrespect the holy Chad Ford Tier System? Blasphemy.

[celticsclay]

 Here's the problem. If we actually did think he wouldn't be any better than Tony Allen, I say we still draft him.

 I agree we expected him to be better, but you can't knock him for drafting Tony Allen 2.0

 The fact is there was no better choice at the sixth spot in that horrible draft. Yeah I said Horrible. Wiggins and Parker were the two big names and that remains true.

 It was Randle or Smart and we chose right, especially for our needs.

 Oklahoma state producing some fine defenders though.

 Per 40 Stats College sophmore year.

 Tony Allen 20.3 ppg 7rpg 4apg 2.6 spg
                     .504% .297% .675%

        Smart. 22ppg 7.2rpg 5.8apg 3.5spg
                     .422% .299% .728%

 Same college, both sophomores, very comparable numbers with Tony having a bug advantage with Fg% probably because he's a quicker and better overall athlete than Marcus.

 Same crappy 3p%, and Smart is the slightly better defender. If the Celtics new they were getting Tony Allen all over again, I say they were fine with that plain and simple.

 Even with the benefit oh Heinsight the only guys in tge discussion at #6 in the lottery were.

 #7 Randle
 #8 Stuaskas
 #9 Vonleh
 #10 Payton
 #11 Doug Mcbuckets
 #12 Saric
 #13 Lavine

 So you tell me LB, or anyone else, who the heck do you want out if that list.

I'm still fine with the pick even though Smart right now is a poor man's Tony Allen.  He's still really young.  I'm hopeful he makes a leap next year.    It's true I wanted Randle over him, but I wasn't all that upset about the pick given our roster construction at the time.  And I'm not all that upset about the pick now.  Randle has only one season under his belt and there's a chance he doesn't make significant improvements either. 

The main point was that expectations for Smart were pretty high back in 2014.  Tony Allen was seen as a worst-case scenario... and it still is.   Most people saw him as having all-star potential.  He was believed to be an NBA-ready player who would make an impact on both ends immediately despite weak shooting in College.    He's been disappointing so far, but it's still early. 

Expectations are lower for Jaylen Brown than they were from Smart.  In-part, because he's seen as a lesser prospect than Smart was.  In-part, because fans have already been burned by Smart and have lowered expectations for Jaylen as a result.   Nobody anticipates Jaylen starting anytime next year.   For the most part, people expect that he's a long-term project that hopefully makes some defensive contributions off the bench.  This should be a top team in the East without relying on Brown so he really doesn't have any pressure to perform.  When Smart entered, he was thought to be the guy who was going to take the reigns from Rondo as "the man".  Despite expectations being lower for Brown, many of us (myself included) are more excited about Jaylen Brown than we were about Smart in 2014 or Smart in 2015.   Jaylen is more mysterious.  His age adds to his allure.  His physical attributes and potential skillset are intriguing.  Yeah, he might end up more Kedrick Brown/Gerald Green than Jimmy Butler/Tracy McGrady, but right now I'm super excited to watch what he can develop into.   Despite how either Smart or Brown were looked at by experts, I have higher hopes for the raw mystery box that is Jaylen Brown than I was for the 6'4 defensive roleplaying bricklayer that people thought could develop into a star back in 2014.

Yeah but just by looking at the numbers don't you think the experts are kind of stupid for thinking that smart was going to be so much better than Tony Allen.

Well... yes...  which is why tankcity so kindly points out that I was expressing concern before Smart's rookie season that he might peak out as Tony Allen... and why I'm admitting that I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown in 2016 than I ever was in 2014 about Smart - primarily because I was never really as sold on expert predictions that Smart was going to be the next Tyreke Evans and be "the man" right out of the gate.   But as tankcity kindly points out, people were labeling me a troll for comparing Smart to Tony Allen back then (typical).  WHy?  Because the vast majority of experts and people on this forum had far, far greater expectations of Marcus SMart than him developing into the next Tony Allen.   You don't take the next Tony Allen 6th in a loaded draft.   He was widely believed to have star potential.  He still might.

That's why it's a bit concerning that we're two years into Smart's career and he's not yet as good as Tony Allen was in his prime.  We still have far greater hopes for Smart than that.  I really hope he makes a leap next year. 

And for those who are confused... yes, I'm aware you watched Tony Allen when he played on the Celtics.  From 2011-2016, Allen was a 5x All-Defense player.  His peak happened AFTER he left the Celtics, so I don't blame anyone here for being unfamiliar with it.   It would be like saying, "Jaylen Brown might be the next Joe Johnson" and someone here saying "Joe Johnson sucks!  He couldn't stay as a starter for us!"...

Tony Allen's peak:   All-Defense 1st team
Marcus Smart:  No All-Defense selection

Tony Allen career:  48% FG/28% 3P
Smart last year:  35% FG/25% 3P

We could waste more time debating if Smart is near Tony Allen's defensive role player peak right now, but it's honestly pretty depressing.  Despite my concerns at the time, most here had far greater expectations for Smart   We all hope that Smart makes a major leap past Tony Allen territory next year and makes the comp irrelevant. 

So yeah, I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown than I was about Smart despite the fact most experts saw Smart as a superior prospect than what they see Brown as.  I worried that Smart would do what he's ended up doing.   With Brown, I have some worries as well, but he's raw and young enough that I'm just excited about the unknown.
 

How dare you disrespect the holy Chad Ford Tier System? Blasphemy.

i wish some one had done a statistical analysis on the difference between fords 3 and 4th tiers players and 4th and 5th tiers. I am curious if it would approach statistical significance and what strength.

[LarBrd33]

 Here's the problem. If we actually did think he wouldn't be any better than Tony Allen, I say we still draft him.

 I agree we expected him to be better, but you can't knock him for drafting Tony Allen 2.0

 The fact is there was no better choice at the sixth spot in that horrible draft. Yeah I said Horrible. Wiggins and Parker were the two big names and that remains true.

 It was Randle or Smart and we chose right, especially for our needs.

 Oklahoma state producing some fine defenders though.

 Per 40 Stats College sophmore year.

 Tony Allen 20.3 ppg 7rpg 4apg 2.6 spg
                     .504% .297% .675%

        Smart. 22ppg 7.2rpg 5.8apg 3.5spg
                     .422% .299% .728%

 Same college, both sophomores, very comparable numbers with Tony having a bug advantage with Fg% probably because he's a quicker and better overall athlete than Marcus.

 Same crappy 3p%, and Smart is the slightly better defender. If the Celtics new they were getting Tony Allen all over again, I say they were fine with that plain and simple.

 Even with the benefit oh Heinsight the only guys in tge discussion at #6 in the lottery were.

 #7 Randle
 #8 Stuaskas
 #9 Vonleh
 #10 Payton
 #11 Doug Mcbuckets
 #12 Saric
 #13 Lavine

 So you tell me LB, or anyone else, who the heck do you want out if that list.

I'm still fine with the pick even though Smart right now is a poor man's Tony Allen.  He's still really young.  I'm hopeful he makes a leap next year.    It's true I wanted Randle over him, but I wasn't all that upset about the pick given our roster construction at the time.  And I'm not all that upset about the pick now.  Randle has only one season under his belt and there's a chance he doesn't make significant improvements either. 

The main point was that expectations for Smart were pretty high back in 2014.  Tony Allen was seen as a worst-case scenario... and it still is.   Most people saw him as having all-star potential.  He was believed to be an NBA-ready player who would make an impact on both ends immediately despite weak shooting in College.    He's been disappointing so far, but it's still early. 

Expectations are lower for Jaylen Brown than they were from Smart.  In-part, because he's seen as a lesser prospect than Smart was.  In-part, because fans have already been burned by Smart and have lowered expectations for Jaylen as a result.   Nobody anticipates Jaylen starting anytime next year.   For the most part, people expect that he's a long-term project that hopefully makes some defensive contributions off the bench.  This should be a top team in the East without relying on Brown so he really doesn't have any pressure to perform.  When Smart entered, he was thought to be the guy who was going to take the reigns from Rondo as "the man".  Despite expectations being lower for Brown, many of us (myself included) are more excited about Jaylen Brown than we were about Smart in 2014 or Smart in 2015.   Jaylen is more mysterious.  His age adds to his allure.  His physical attributes and potential skillset are intriguing.  Yeah, he might end up more Kedrick Brown/Gerald Green than Jimmy Butler/Tracy McGrady, but right now I'm super excited to watch what he can develop into.   Despite how either Smart or Brown were looked at by experts, I have higher hopes for the raw mystery box that is Jaylen Brown than I was for the 6'4 defensive roleplaying bricklayer that people thought could develop into a star back in 2014.

Yeah but just by looking at the numbers don't you think the experts are kind of stupid for thinking that smart was going to be so much better than Tony Allen.

Well... yes...  which is why tankcity so kindly points out that I was expressing concern before Smart's rookie season that he might peak out as Tony Allen... and why I'm admitting that I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown in 2016 than I ever was in 2014 about Smart - primarily because I was never really as sold on expert predictions that Smart was going to be the next Tyreke Evans and be "the man" right out of the gate.   But as tankcity kindly points out, people were labeling me a troll for comparing Smart to Tony Allen back then (typical).  WHy?  Because the vast majority of experts and people on this forum had far, far greater expectations of Marcus SMart than him developing into the next Tony Allen.   You don't take the next Tony Allen 6th in a loaded draft.   He was widely believed to have star potential.  He still might.

That's why it's a bit concerning that we're two years into Smart's career and he's not yet as good as Tony Allen was in his prime.  We still have far greater hopes for Smart than that.  I really hope he makes a leap next year. 

And for those who are confused... yes, I'm aware you watched Tony Allen when he played on the Celtics.  From 2011-2016, Allen was a 5x All-Defense player.  His peak happened AFTER he left the Celtics, so I don't blame anyone here for being unfamiliar with it.   It would be like saying, "Jaylen Brown might be the next Joe Johnson" and someone here saying "Joe Johnson sucks!  He couldn't stay as a starter for us!"...

Tony Allen's peak:   All-Defense 1st team
Marcus Smart:  No All-Defense selection

Tony Allen career:  48% FG/28% 3P
Smart last year:  35% FG/25% 3P

We could waste more time debating if Smart is near Tony Allen's defensive role player peak right now, but it's honestly pretty depressing.  Despite my concerns at the time, most here had far greater expectations for Smart   We all hope that Smart makes a major leap past Tony Allen territory next year and makes the comp irrelevant. 

So yeah, I'm more excited about Jaylen Brown than I was about Smart despite the fact most experts saw Smart as a superior prospect than what they see Brown as.  I worried that Smart would do what he's ended up doing.   With Brown, I have some worries as well, but he's raw and young enough that I'm just excited about the unknown.
 

How dare you disrespect the holy Chad Ford Tier System? Blasphemy.

i wish some one had done a statistical analysis on the difference between fords 3 and 4th tiers players and 4th and 5th tiers. I am curious if it would approach statistical significance and what strength.

So what you're really asking is if scouts/GM's are arbitrarily deciding which players they think have "superstar" potential (Towns), all-star potential (Smart) or otherwise (Brown). 

There were only a handful of players since 2000 that I remember being labelled "potential superstars'.   Yao Ming was definitely one of them and he never totally reached that level.  LeBron was one of them.  Kevin Durant and Greg Oden got the label.  Since Ford's tier articles started, he's had the following players listed as "potential superstars" per scouts/GMs:   Anthony Davis, John Wall, Blake Griffin, Joel Embiid, Jabari Parker, Andrew Wiggins, Karl Towns, Ben Simmons

Emphasis on the word "potential".  That's how those guys were seen prior to joining the league.  Super high ceilings with varied results thus far.

Several others got the label "all-star potential" (tier 2):   Kyrie Irving, Derrick Williams, Harrison Barnes, Bradley Beal, Michael-Kidd Gilchrist, Thomas Robinson, Dante Exum, Aaron Gordon, Marcus Smart, Julius Randle, Dario Saric, Noah Vonleh, Jahlil Okafor, Kristaps Porzingus, Emmanuel Mudiay, D'Angelo Russell, Brandon Ingram

There's some misses in there.  Emphasis on the word "Potential".   That's how those guys were seen prior to joining the league.  They were believed to project into all-stars.  Obviously, it's not an exact science.  Players get injured.  Players never develop.  Players lack motivation.  Other players exceed expectations and make surprising leaps in their games.  Sometimes scouts/GM's are just flat out wrong and take a bust high or see a guy like Rudy Gobert go 27th.  Nobody is denying that.   Only a complete idiot would think that the draft order is a perfect representation of how the players will rank long-term.   Some of the above players unsurprisingly failed to pan out.   Many of the guys who didn't get the "future superstar" or "future allstar" label unsurprisingly managed to get there regardless.   

Our hope is that Jaylen Brown ends up one of those players that develops into a "future allstar" despite not getting that label.  It's a fine thing to hope for.  As we all are aware, prospects of his caliber occasionally surpass expectations.  Some folks even disagree with the consensus (I remember a minority of fans being really mad Giannis fell all the way to #15).  That's all fine and dandy.  Scouts/GM's can be wrong.  Fans can be right. 

You're attacking the draft in general.  You seem disappointed that someone like Derrick Williams went #2 in the draft and didn't turn into a star as scouts/GMs believed he'd be.   I assure you, the team that selected him 2nd is even more disappointed.    You seem hurt and betrayed that someone like Andre Drummond could end up an all-star despite being selected all the way at 9th, being passed up by 8 teams who didn't see him as having as much potential as someone like Dion Waiters and Thomas Robinson.   I'm with you on that... I was hoping we'd trade for Detroit's pick on draft night so we could select Drummond. 

But you're trying to suggest this is a Chad Ford problem.  And that's wrong.   Chad Ford's draft tiers reflect how teams feel about these prospects prior the draft.   Ford didn't force anyone to take Derrick Williams 2nd.  Ford didn't force 8 teams to pass on Drummond.  It's not Chad Ford's fault that reportedly every team picking 3-8 was exploring trading down or out of a draft range believed to be weak.  It makes no sense to blame Chad Ford for this.  Retroactively looking at how these guys panned out misses the point entirely.   This thread is asking how we felt about Marcus Smart in the past.  It's not about how we feel about Marcus Smart now.   Smart was labelled a future allstar.  That's why he was taken 6th.  Don't blame Chad Ford if Marcus Smart busts.  That's not his fault. 

[GratefulCs]

i get tired of defending marcus to critics that don't take into consideration smarts injury history
smart was a rookie caught up in a merry go round of new players, while losing rondo and green
then you have that high ankle sprain that kept him off the court for a large part of season and when he did comeback his lift was hampered,marcus was in pain till mid summer-marcus shot 33 % from 3
2nd summer league dislocated fingers ,then a dis located knee that kept him out till new year--stats were badly effected and his shooting was hampered by both injuries
if you played basketball at any high level, you will know how those injuries effected his first two years-
-healthy this year with a full summer working on his shot-
there were two recent articles that have finally in print recognized his injuries-
about time

TP

[LarBrd33]

i get tired of defending marcus to critics that don't take into consideration smarts injury history
smart was a rookie caught up in a merry go round of new players, while losing rondo and green
then you have that high ankle sprain that kept him off the court for a large part of season and when he did comeback his lift was hampered,marcus was in pain till mid summer-marcus shot 33 % from 3
2nd summer league dislocated fingers ,then a dis located knee that kept him out till new year--stats were badly effected and his shooting was hampered by both injuries
if you played basketball at any high level, you will know how those injuries effected his first two years-
-healthy this year with a full summer working on his shot-
there were two recent articles that have finally in print recognized his injuries-
about time

TP

I'm a fan of the Marcus Smart injury conspiracy theories.  At no point has he shown an ability to consistently finish at the hoop or hit shots.  I sincerely hope injuries are the reason for his historically bad offense.  Regardless, year 3 is a huge season for young players.  I really hope he makes a leap.  This is a make or break year to a certain extent.  He's definitely going to continue having a career as a solid defender off the bench, but if he doesn't make a leap this season a lot of folks will lose whatever faith they have left in his all-star potential.

While we're at it... another great conspiracy theory is that Marcus Smart's haircut is to blame for his historically bad shooting:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSK77Asxhpo

Here's hoping Smart's new tighter cheeze wiz toppings improve his shooting form.