Are you more excited about seeing Brown than you were about seeing Marcus...

[tarheelsxxiii]

^ Lol. TP.

[LarBrd33]

This entire argument was about why a man had an opinion two years ago, as if hindsight could make him change his past self's mind.

Ironically enough, he used Chad Ford's rankings to solidify his past self's opinion.

yeah pretty much.  Ford was just one of countless that labeled Smart a potential all star prospect.  Even my bubbletea guy was high on Smart and my bubbletea guy doesn't screw around when it comes to prospect evaluation.

[tarheelsxxiii]

^ You gotta admit that was funny.

[Surferdad]

Alright guys.  There's some really great points in this thread.  I'd like to take a moment to give credit to some of them.

#1 - I agree that Marcus Smart was considered a better prospect in 2014 than Brown was in 2016.  2014 was believed at the time to be a tremendous draft.  Smart was thought to have all-star potential.  He was believed to be NBA ready.   Brown is seen as a lesser prospect from a lesser draft.  Expectations are lower for Brown in the short term because he's thought to be less NBA ready.  Brown isn't widely expected to develop into an all star.  TP.

#2 -  Great point that Chad Ford's draft tiers reflect how scouts and execs feel about prospects prior to the draft.  You'll see similar consensus opinions from every other draft related source.  Smart was seen as a tier-2 prospect (potential all star).  Jaylen brown is seen as a tier 3/4 prospect (future starter/rotation player).  A lot of sources felt brown was a reach at #3.   If 2014 Smart and 2016 Brown were coming out in the same draft, I have to admit that Smart would go ahead of Brown.

#3 - Despite expectations, I'm more exited about Brown than I was about Smart.  The unknown is intriguing.  Also, expectations are often subverted.  Such was the case with players like Giannis (who went 15th and surpassed expectations) and such has been the case with Smart thus far (a very disappointing first two years).  So I'm banking on Brown defying expectations and developing into a superstar some day.  I know it's super unlikely, but I'm hoping for the best and I'm excited about his long term future. 

#4 - Excellent point on Ford's sources. I admit it's true that what rival GM's think of okafor's trade value has nothing to do with how Okafor will develop long term and whether or not Philly will trade him for a small pittance.  I've never doubted that ford's sources are telling him okafor has minimal trade value.  Obviously his trade value has taken a hit.   The point I've made is that Philly is unlikely to trade him away unless they get what they think he is worth.  So far, he hasn't been traded... So all these rival GM's saying how worthless he is hardly matters if those teams can't acquire him for their weak offers.  Tommy point.

#5 -  Yes, I agree that it's possible to quantify expectations between draft classes.  Yes, this is different than our expectations years later.  A great example:  Bucks fans were undoubtedly more excited about Jabari Parker in 2014 (#2 pick with huge expectations) than they were about Giannis in 2013 (#15 pick who at the time had far less expectations).  If you poll that fan base now, you might find a lot of them are far more excited about Giannis.   I agree we shouldn't ignore that point.  The expectations for Lebron James were significantly higher than the expectations for Anthony Bennett despite the fact they were both #1 picks by the Cavs.  The expectations for Dwyane Wade in 2003 were significantly higher than Cody Zeller in 2014 despite the fact Wade was a #5 pick and Zeller was a #4 pick.  And the expectations for Marcus smart were higher than the expectations for Jaylen brown despite the fact brown was a #3 pick.   Good news is, you don't have to agree with expectations. I'm sure there is someone out there that immediately thought Giannis was going to be a superstar and thought Jabari Parker was overrated. 

#6. Yes, it's way too early to call philly a failure or a success.  Several of their key players have yet to play a basketball game.  I agree that the super tanking method was intriguing and they are currently loaded with some prospects that could develop into superstars as a result.  Who knows if the process will work out, but it's hard not to be a little impressed with what they accomplished so far.   Hopefully they fail. 

#7  Thank you for the thoughtful PMs and compliments, but really I just need to reiterate that I'm just some random dumb Celtic fan. I never set out to have a following or fan club, so it's a little embarrassing when people tell me how much they enjoy my posts.  I just share my opinion of the team and post here for my own entertainment and because I love the Celtics and the NBA in general.  I think it's great if people disagree with me because it sparks discussion.  It's weird to me that people remember so many of my posts... I have a real hard time distinguishing one person from another on this forum. I probably couldn't tell you one way or the other how a certain member of this forum feels about a given topic. I just respond to the text as I see it without consideration for what that person may have said in the past.   Thanks nonetheless, but seriously there are a few members here who probably know way more about basketball than I do.  I wish they would post more and lurk less.

#8 I agree that the conversation about okafor was off topic and unnecessary. It seemed intended to side track this thread which is intended to be about excitement/expectations about Jaylen brown and Marcus smart.   I tried my best to avoid the tired old okafor conversation, but oh well.  I agree that my responses should put that side topic to rest so we can focus on what matters. 

Thanks guys.  It's a lot to think about.  This is a great forum.   I'm pumped for the upcoming season.  I'm hopeful smart makes a leap in year 3 and brown turns into a star long term.  TPs all around.

Thanks Lbbrd. This is a great post. I think people should move on now.

TP.  Hopefully that cleared things up.  Can't wait for the season to start.  I'm really excited to watch Jaylen evolve.  He's a low CP/high IV dratini with the potential to be a near-perfect dragonite if powered up with enough poke-candy and stardust.    Exciting times.

EDIT:  Wow.  18,000 posts.  Every one of them a Home Dinger.   Incredible. 

Congrats, you are now the only Dennis Johnson on the board.  Respect.

[IDreamCeltics]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?" 

[Snakehead]

I would say I am more excited going in but Smart won me over very quickly with his defense.  Smart is one of my favorite defensive players I've ever watched (up there with guys like the Glove and KG) and to say that about a guy two years in is a big deal.  I think he can make a big jump on offense if he cleans up his shooting and gets more comfortable off the dribble and as a passer, where I think he is a lot better than people say.

Also I would compare the situations.  Smart was drafted with Rondo starting and also on that team that lets not forget was based around Jeff Green for a while.  It's crazy how far the team has come since then.

I think I am more excited to watch Brown going in than I was Smart because I personally think Brown is a strong fit to step in right away and do some things this team really needs in guarding SFs, attacking in transition, rebounding, and going to the rim.  He won't be asked to do as much and the fit makes a lot of sense right away for me.

I still am a big believer in Smart and he is my favorite player on the team but of course you have to like a bigger player with a lot of potential like Brown too.  It helps I'm sure that I am up on the team in general.  There are other things I'm more excited for this year than Jaylen (including Smart in his third year) and when Smart was drafted the team was a mess.

[Snakehead]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

Because his numbers were a bit more like Evans and Wade than they were Tony Allen?  He did more as a passer and averaged more assists per game, right where Evans and Wade were.  Smart is a better passer than people give him credit for and he is getting better off the dribble.  People say things like Poor Man's Tony Allen and he has the elite defense already and he is getting better off the dribble, where Allen is weak.  I think he is a better passer for sure.  He needs to get a lot better at shooting but he has confidence as a scorer.  The potential is there.  I am ready for a big year.

You can knock Smart for being not Tyreke in his rookie year if you want but Tyreke has never played half the defense.

[SHAQATTACK]

Marcus pays good defense and if Brown can score , the combo should work out.

[LarBrd33]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that. 

[Ilikesports17]

I think many of you missed the bit where he is comparing excitement levels of Brown at the moment, to Marcus a year ago, NOT when he came out of school.

Also the Tyreke Evans stuff is a bit ridiculous. I do remember hearing all sorts of comps. Wade, Westbrook, Evans you name it. However to suggest that Marcus Smart is a disappointment because he hasnt been Tyreke Evans is a bit ridiculous. Id take Smart over Evans all day long and if Smart put up 20-6-5 with his defense at age 22, that would put him in Wade-Wall territory.

[LarBrd33]

I think many of you missed the bit where he is comparing excitement levels of Brown at the moment, to Marcus a year ago, NOT when he came out of school.

Lol.  Yeah.  In that case, it's a no-contest.  I can't imagine anyone being more excited about Marcus Smart in Year 2, after a dreadfully disappointing rookie campaign, than watching the Jaylen Brown mystery box in Year 1.

[Ilikesports17]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

When you compare Randle's ceiling to something a bit above Smart's floor then yeah, Randle wins. Nice job.

[LarBrd33]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

When you compare Randle's ceiling to something a bit above Smart's floor then yeah, Randle wins. Nice job.

They are both presumably at their floors.  Seems it's a tossup which floor is better.  Apparently NBA2k16 thinks Randle's floor is better, for instance.   Yet to be seen if either will improve beyond their floor.  We've only seen 1 season out of Randle.  We've seen 2 out of Smart and in some ways he regressed. 

[ThaPreacher]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

I don't think it is a silly debate. I believe that Smart was drafted by Boston, because Randle refused to return for another workout.  Ainge was high on Randle,  for good reason.
But Randle declined a final workout.  Case closed.

I don't know if Smart's offense regressed, though the stat line wasn't favorable.
Certainly, he didn't make the progress with his shooting (in games) that we would have liked.
Randle suffered through Kobe's final tour.  I believe that he would be demonstrating even greater value in a different system. Randle has some valuable offensive talent.

Would you trade Marcus Smart for Julius Randle- right now today?

I think the answer depends upon too many other factors.  Smart, Bradley, Rozier are pieces to a plan, all expendable, but each one important.  And I think that any of them are potentially part of a trade that lands us a much bigger fish than Randle.

While it isn't a Bird vs Magic debate, it is a interesting thing to watch.

[LarBrd33]

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

How did anyone watch Marcus Smart play at the same school as Tony Allen, putting up nearly identical numbers, with the same body type and style and say, "He looks like a cross between Tyreke Evans and Dwayne Wade?"

If they thought he was the next tony Allen, he wouldn't have gone 6th.  Julius Randle was widely believed to be a guy who, while limited defensively, could be a Zach Randolph level all star averaging 20 and 10 some day.   You don't pick Tony Allen above that.

BTW, I told people last Summer that Smart vs Randle was going to continue to be an interesting debate and people acted like I was out of my mind, because Randle missed his rookie season.  Throughout the season, I continued to believe Smart was above him.   Randle closed the gap considerably, though.   Averaged a double-double.   Per-36 numbers of 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds.   Randle Vs Smart is a real thing.   It's going to be really interesting to see how these two develop.   Clearly Smart is on another level defensively.   Randle still looks like he could be a future Zach Randolph some day.     FWIW... NBA2k16 ratings recently came out and they have Randle with a higher Overall rating (77) than Smart (76), so there's that.

I don't think it is a silly debate. I believe that Smart was drafted by Boston, because Randle refused to return for another workout.  Ainge was high on Randle,  for good reason.
But Randle declined a final workout.  Case closed.

I don't know if Smart's offense regressed, though the stat line wasn't favorable.
Certainly, he didn't make the progress with his shooting (in games) that we would have liked.
Randle suffered through Kobe's final tour.  I believe that he would be demonstrating even greater value in a different system. Randle has some valuable offensive talent.

Would you trade Marcus Smart for Julius Randle- right now today?

I think the answer depends upon too many other factors.  Smart, Bradley, Rozier are pieces to a plan, all expendable, but each one important.  And I think that any of them are potentially part of a trade that lands us a much bigger fish than Randle.

While it isn't a Bird vs Magic debate, it is a interesting thing to watch.

We already had a lot of PFs at the time (Bass, Olynyk, Sully) so picking Smart made sense... especially because we hoped he would be our starting PG once Rondo left (all signs pointed towards Rondo fleeing in free agency or getting traded). 

It's an interesting to thing to think about now, because Smart is likely our backup guard this year (with Rozier seemingly coming on strong).   There might be a greater opportunity for Randle to start on this team right now.  Is Olynyk our starting PF now or are we planning on starting Amir and Horford together?