Author Topic: Are you more excited about seeing Brown than you were about seeing Marcus...  (Read 39172 times)

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Offline LarBrd33

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I agree, Lbbrd lost the arguement. He's not consistent with his takes and is avoiding Clay's point. He's just reiterating the same garbage. Reminds me of Goodell's press conferences when people would ask him about the Brady Suspension.
what argument did I lose?  Explain it to me.   Has someone proven that brown is seen as a better protect than Marcus smart was in 2014?  Or are just arbitrarily saying I lost some argument i wasn't participating in cuz y'all are a bunch of parrots of one another.
You really do live on an Egyptian river. at times it is sad to you like this.
yea I asked him a pretty straight forward question and he started talking about Jabari Parker. Tps around fellas
Fine Clay...

What's your "Straight forward" question... and how does it at all apply to the topic of this thread? 

As far as i can tell, I made the accurate statement that Marcus Smart was seen as a greater prospect in 2014 than Jaylen Brown is today.   Instead of addressing that, you decided to bellyache about Chad Ford's credibility and claim I said things about Chad Ford that I never actually said.   If the squawk squadron would rather talk about Chad Ford and Jahlil Okafor than participate in a discussion about Brown's perceived potential vs Smart's perceived potential in 2014, so be it.  I've already said everything I need to say about that tired old topic in dozens of other threads.  If I need to cut and paste some previous responses about Jahlil Okafor to appease the hoard and drop some knowledge, I'll give the fans what they want.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 04:01:13 AM by LarBrd33 »

Offline LarBrd33

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Are these the "straight-forward" questions you are referring to?   


#1 Why do you choose to believe that he (Ford) is not embellishing and exageratting things when he says these tiers are developed by talking to a large group of scouts and league executives? [/b]

Answer:  I believe Ford talks to scouts/execs. 

Quote
#2 how come you have constantly refused to believe him (Ford) when he said: [/b]
a) [okafor] "just doesn't fit the schemes that most NBA coaches are after, including I think the 76ers. So I think there was a major miscalculation on the part of Sam Hinkie when he selected him at [three]"
b) "Philly asked would we trade for the No. 3 pick, or the No. 4 pick or the No. 5 pick for a guy like Okafor, would that be good value for us?' And I think they've walked out of that scenario saying, 'We don't think we can actually get that for Okafor right now."'
c) He didn't rank Okafor as one of the top rookies based on simulated convesations with scouts
http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14448751/ranking-karl-anthony-towns-kristaps-porzingis-2015-rookies-future-potential-nba

Answer:  I never suggested Ford is fabricating reports.  There's a misconception perpetuated by the squak squadron that I am in denial about how rival teams see Okafor's current trade value.  I'm keenly aware that there's a widespread narrative that Okafor's trade value is very low.  It means very little if Philly is unwilling to trade him for very little.   Last I checked, Okafor hasn't been traded for very little.    For clarity:  I believe rival teams are telling guys like Ford that Okafor has minimal trade value.   Further clarity:  I've been saying that Philly is probably just going to keep Okafor if nobody is willing to give them anything significant for him.  If Philly was willing to give him away for minimal return, he wouldn't still be a 76er.

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Why do you pick and choose when to believe him when it suits your agenda, but then completely dismiss his insider knowledge when it goes against what you have been arguing for?
Answer:  I don't.

Quote
Aren't his tiers predictive powers an absolute embarrassment?
Answer:  Nope.  They seem to be a fairly accurate representation of how scouts/Gms see those prospects prior to the NBA draft.   You're attempting to attack Ford here, but really what your issue seems to be is that NBA scouts, in general, has no excuse for Greg Oden busting (despite being picked #1) and Giannis playing well (despite being picked #15).   Direct your frustration at the right target.

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You say the point of them is not to predict, but if it is a sampling of scouts and executives predicting a guy's NBA future and they are consistently off what is the point?
Answer:  Good question, Clay.  That's the first one that is actually relevant to this topic.   TP!
First of all, they aren't "Consistently off".  It's fairly obvious that sports scouts can't 100% accurately predict how a player will project long term.  There will be guys who surpass expectations (like Giannis) and guys who will disappoint (Marcus Smart so far).  That said, pro scouting is actually a lot better than it gets credit for.  You need look no further than the correlation between top NBA players and where they were drafted.  Unsurprisingly, the majority of all-star players are taken towards the top of the draft.  That suggests that teams have a better-than-average understanding of which amateur players will transition well to the pros.    When scouts peg a player as having star potential, it tends to happen far more often than the players they peg as not having star potential.  Otherwise, the majority of the all-star team would be made up of late 1st round/2nd round/undrafted talent... and that's not the case.  It seems you're attempting to say that the NBA draft from top to bottom is a crap shoot.  Guys projected as superstars (the Karl Towns of the world) are no better than guys not projected as superstars (the Fab Melos of the world).  That's kinda silly.   Scouts have a better than average understanding of how prospects compare within a draft... and scouts have a better than average understanding of how prospects compare across all drafts.  That's how they can peg someone like "LeBron James" to be a potential transcendent talent in high school.  Nobody was calling Anthony Bennett a potential transcendent talent.  Not all prospects are created equally.   The #3 pick in 2003 (Carmelo Anthony) was seen as a vastly superior prospect to the #3 pick in 2013 (Otto Porter).   

This thread was started with the question:  "Are you more excited about seeing Brown than you were about seeing Marcus".   

Short answer:  "Yes"

Long answer (I'll leave out Chad Ford since it was a trigger for you):  The 2014 draft was widely seen (at the time) as being a much higher caliber draft than the 2016 draft.   It was thought to have as many as 8 potential all-stars at the top of the draft.  Marcus Smart was one of those players.   Several analysts called him one of the two most "NBA-Ready" prospects in the entire draft.   Guys like David Thorpe believed Marcus Smart (based on how NBA-ready he was) was a rookie of the year candidate and suggested that he could be the best player from the class in the first 5 years (with other more raw prospects like Wiggins, Gordon, Exum needing more time to adjust).  There were high expectations for him in the short-term.  Many compared him to Tyreke Evans.  Some thought he'd be the next Westbrook.  Some thought he would be more in the Oladipo territory.   The common narrative at the time was that Smart made Rondo expendable and Rondo's days were numbered (they were).   Long-term, he was widely seen as having all-star potential, but few thought he could become a franchise player.   On a personal level, I was excited about the pick and thrilled to have a true star prospect (I was one of the first guys to jump on the tank bandwagon).  There were guys I liked more than Smart, though... such as Julius Randle.  And I worried about us selecting another undersized shooting guard who couldn't shoot.  I was thrilled to have him, though.  And I'm still excited to see if he makes a leap in year 3 after two disappointing seasons.  I'm happy he's become a great defensive role player, but if we're being truthful, all of us expected more than a Tony Allen clone with our #6 pick.

As for Jaylen Brown, while some instantly got drunk on the green Kool Aid as soon as he put on the Celtic cap, the consensus was that the 2016 draft had at most two true star prospects.   Brown wasn't one of them.  They had been calling it a two player draft for a while and there was no consensus #3 pick.   I wouldn't say Brown's selection at #3 was entirely surprising (he was a good selection considering our roster makeup and long-term goals), but it wouldn't have been all that surprising to see him fall to #8 either.   Right now, expectations for him in the short-term are relatively low.  He struggled offensively in the D-League.  He's raw.  He's a 19 year old kid that we hope will make an impact off the bench defensively.   He's not seen as the same level of prospect as Smart was in 2014.   That said, I'm very excited to watch him develop.  I'm more optimistic about his long-term future than I was about Smart.  Maybe it's because Brown is more of an unknown.  A 19 year old kid making the leap after a Freshman season.   Maybe he ends up a total bust.  Maybe he ends up a true superstar.   He probably ends up somewhere in the middle... but right now I'm pumped.  The "unknown" is always more exciting.   
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 04:12:21 AM by LarBrd33 »

Offline chambers

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Internet wars are a serious thing.

Just so annoying to try and have a legitimate discussion when someone wants to scream, shout, declare their self appointed expertise- but won't listen or acknowledge to other forum members when it doesn't suit them.

In the real world this is called 'delusion'.
None of that happened here.   I made some accurate statements that didn't align with what a couple trolls here wanted to believe... so they decided to bring up Jahlil Okafor and declare "victory" when I refused to take the bait.

actually, you used Chad Ford's ranking systems as a 'be all, end all' argument that people were more excited about Smart and that Smart was a higher touted prospect than Brown.

Celticsclay then pointed out that you thought Ford was worthless when it came to his discussions about Okafur's lack of value. (Because you value Okafur very highly) ..aka, Ford's info/opinion doesn't suit your Okafor appreciation.

You then replied and avoided his point about Chard Ford- who's tier system was the foundation and very basis of your argument- and then suggested that because Clay had pointed out your previously stated opinion on Chad Brown, that Clay was trying to change the topic- when you are clearly the one trying to change the topic and avoiding his question...a question which is completely fine and actually imperative as the basis of your argument.

He's asked you literally 5 times, and every time you avoid the question by saying you're 'not taking the bait', because you know that you can't acknowledge his point without admitting you were either wrong about Okafur or wrong about Ford's legitimacy as a draft tier specialist.

You do this all the time.
You're either ignoring a legitimate point because it doesn't suit your current mood/opinion or you are completely stupid. And you aren't stupid.
You love internet conflict and on the internet, it appears that you have a very hard time admitting or accepting that you may be wrong about certain Celtics stuff.

But yeah, you tend to ignore pretty much any comments or discussion that question your often bold declarations/ statements because you're either:
a) rude
b) hypocritical
c) wrong

...and then you play the bait card like 'I'm not taking the bait, you're just targeting me' as if other posters are coming after you when your attitude and disrespect towards other Celticsblog members were generally the spark that ignited the flame.

I mean this in the most honest, zero malice intended way, but your lack of rebuttal or acknowledgement on legit arguments or counter points to your arguments is disrespectful and attention seeking.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline LarBrd33

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Internet wars are a serious thing.

Just so annoying to try and have a legitimate discussion when someone wants to scream, shout, declare their self appointed expertise- but won't listen or acknowledge to other forum members when it doesn't suit them.

In the real world this is called 'delusion'.
None of that happened here.   I made some accurate statements that didn't align with what a couple trolls here wanted to believe... so they decided to bring up Jahlil Okafor and declare "victory" when I refused to take the bait.

actually, you used Chad Ford's ranking systems as a 'be all, end all' argument that people were more excited about Smart and that Smart was a higher touted prospect than Brown.
Yeah I get it... Chad Ford is a trigger for some folks here.   If it makes you feel better, ignore Ford.  There's still a mountain of media, scouts, analysts, websites, blogs, etc that you can look to for evidence that the 2014 Draft was seen as (at the time) a far superior draft than 2016.   The top 8 prospects in 2014 were thought to have all-star potential.   This year, the consensus was that there were 2 guys with legit star potential (Simmons and maybe Ingram) and a bunch of lesser prospects.   

I get that me using Ford's tier article ruffled some jimmies, but the point remains wholly accurate.  Smart was seen as a superior prospect in 2014 than Brown is today.  It's actually pretty hilarious to me that memories are this poor.   Smart was widely thought to be an NBA-Ready talent who could threaten for Rookie of the Year (if Rondo was traded) in what was widely regarded as a terrific draft.    Expectations for Brown are lower.  A lot of "experts" felt he was a reach at #3.  He isn't expected to make much of an impact in year 1.  If you truly are desperate for a source other than ESPN dismissing the quality of the 2016 Draft (particularly picks after 1 and 2), here's a quote from cbssports that reflects the general consensus:

Quote
. No getting around it: It's a down draft year

Hate to get negative, but this is the reality and a major plot point to this year's draft. The crop of college players isn't considered that deep, and that goes for the lottery pool as well. The 2013 class was considered weak, and yeah, we've seen a lot of validation of that theory in the three years since. Nearly every team in the lottery has made calls on trying to move down, and because the pool isn't so inspiring, don't be shocked if a lot of mock drafts you see wind up being off in terms of where guys are taken. Opinions vary wildly on a lot of prospects, so much so that you could see some big shifts -- which makes for good drama and shock value, if nothing else -- as the first round plays out on Thursday.

Just to reiterate, I'm more excited about Brown in 2016 than I was about Smart in 2014.   Facts is facts, though.  It's a tribute to my acceptance that players can defy expectations that I'm more pumped about Brown than I was about Smart - given that Smart was seen as a superior prospect to what the "experts" see Brown as.

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Celticsclay then pointed out that you thought Ford was worthless when it came to his discussions about Okafur's lack of value. (Because you value Okafur very highly) ..aka, Ford's info/opinion doesn't suit your Okafor appreciation.

See above for a more in-depth response to this.  But I've been pretty consistent in my opinion of Okafor.   I get that some people don't understand what my opinion of Okafor is.  It's widely known that rival teams believe Okafor's trade value is low.  I'm not denying "sources" have told Ford this.  I've never denied that.  What a rival GM tells Chad Ford about Okafor doesn't really have anything to do with how Okafor will play long-term and whether or not Philly is willing to trade away Okafor for anything less than a significant piece.   I see a lot of trolls here celebrating about Okafor's "lack of trade value".   When he is traded for something insignificant, you can celebrate about how "right" you were... hopefully it's to Boston so we can celebrate together.  Until then, Okafor is a 76er and I assume getting him would take far more than anyone has offered.  Proof - Nobody has been able to acquire him yet.  Understand that Okafor being "worth very little" only matters if they are required to trade him.  They have him under contract for at least 3 years.  It doesn't matter if other teams think he is worth very little.  They can just keep him.  If a team like Boston wants him, they'll have to pay what Philly is willing to take.   Of course, this has nothing to do with Ford's draft tier article and it has even less to do with how excited you should be about Jaylen Brown.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 04:51:27 AM by LarBrd33 »

Offline jpotter33

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Internet wars are a serious thing.

Just so annoying to try and have a legitimate discussion when someone wants to scream, shout, declare their self appointed expertise- but won't listen or acknowledge to other forum members when it doesn't suit them.

In the real world this is called 'delusion'.
None of that happened here.   I made some accurate statements that didn't align with what a couple trolls here wanted to believe... so they decided to bring up Jahlil Okafor and declare "victory" when I initially refused to take the bait.

I've resisted commenting on several of your outlandish remarks in this thread, because I know you just do it to get the attention that you so obviously lack getting elsewhere.

But I find it absolutely hilarious that you have the audacity to call anyone else on here a "troll" when you're undoubtedly the biggest troll on this blog. What makes it even funnier is the fact that you claim to "only hit home dingers"'(Seriously,, who says this kind of stuff about themselves? You're like the Celticsblog version of a narcissistic, delusional Donald Trump.), yet you've "struck out" many, many more times than you've "hit a home dinger," especially regarding anything with Philly.

But you keep doing you, boo-boo. Delusions of grandeur aren't any realer than this fake persona that you put on around here. I just wish we all had the self-control to not feed your addiction and respond to your ridiculous attention-grabs on here.

Offline LarBrd33

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Internet wars are a serious thing.

Just so annoying to try and have a legitimate discussion when someone wants to scream, shout, declare their self appointed expertise- but won't listen or acknowledge to other forum members when it doesn't suit them.

In the real world this is called 'delusion'.
None of that happened here.   I made some accurate statements that didn't align with what a couple trolls here wanted to believe... so they decided to bring up Jahlil Okafor and declare "victory" when I initially refused to take the bait.

What makes it even funnier is the fact that you claim to "only hit home dingers"'(Seriously,, who says this kind of stuff about themselves? You're like the Celticsblog version of a narcissistic, delusional Donald Trump.), yet you've "struck out" many, many more times than you've "hit a home dinger," especially regarding anything with Philly.
Philly's in great shape.  Time will tell whether or not their plan was a success.  Nobody can really declare that a failure or a success at this point.  In terms of landing top prospects, it's a success (Ben Simmons was the golden prize of this draft), but nobody really knows how it will turn out.  Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid and Dario Saric have literally never played an NBA game yet.  We're going to need a few years to see if the super-tanking worked.  It certainly net them some high quality prospects, but we don't know yet how it will fit together.   Anyone who uses my opinion of Philly against me doesn't get it.  First of all, they probably couldn't even summarize what my opinion of that team is.  You have trolls who keep calling me a Philly fan, for instance.  I've never claimed to be a fan of that team.  I've just consistently said their method was intriguing and they have acquired a ton of young talent with high ceilings.    Second, my "opinion" of Philly has thus far been pretty accurate.  So using it against me makes little to no sense.  Anyways.  #Prokafor #HinkieIsTheGOAT #HeDiedForOurSins #TrustTheProcess

Also, while I may have a few haters here and there, most people love me, because I tell it like it is and I have the best words.

Honestly, it's weird to me that people are being this defensive.  I get people getting worked up over comparing a Celtic player to a Laker player, but we're literally talking about two Celtic players - both of which could end up great.   I'm admitting that I am more excited about Brown while acknowledging that Smart was seen as a superior prospect.  It's almost like seeing two highly touted Celtic prospects compared to each other is breaking people's homer microchips.  They don't know how to react, so they are just defaulting to hostility and foaming at the mouth about Chad Ford and Jahlil Okafor.   Bizarre. 

I think it's fair to acknowledge that Smart's disappointing first two seasons have contributed to lowering the expectations for Brown.   I think most people here reasonably expect Brown to make moderate contributions off the bench in year 1, while "NBA-Ready" Marcus Smart was expected to make a far greater impact early on.    Seems most of us are more excited about Brown, though, because he was a higher pick and he's 19 years old.  A lot of us have convinced ourselves his ceiling is higher, because we've seen less of him.  The unknown is always more appealing.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 05:28:52 AM by LarBrd33 »

Offline KG Living Legend

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 Who's the better prospect ultimately? Probably Brown. Screw Chad Ford.

 Ivan Rabb is a top 10 pick in this draft and he will most likely blow up without Jaylen Brown it town.

 Smart played quite a bit more minutes than Brown because of his tremendous defense and OK State is not the best program, suspect talent.

 Let's remember that Smart played 2 years to brown's 1 year. Smart was the sixth pick in a crappy three player draft.

 Brown went third in a more talent loaded draft, that's a big clue right there.

 So let's look at per 40 stats from their freshman Year's.

 Smart   18.3 ppg 6.9 rpg 5apg .404 fg%
 
 Brown  21.2 ppg 7.8 rpg 3apg .431 fg%

 Smart obviously crushes him on defense, but Brown has great potential there to guard anyone.

 Brown had a down year for himself and was still the third pick, let that sink in.

 Brown has the height advantage, reach advantage, quickness, speed, Jumping advantage by a landslide. He's just a much more god given athlete than Smart.

 Riddle me this, if you were drafting and Smart and Brown were in the same draft both freshman who would you take?

 I'd take Brown.

 

Offline celticsclay

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Internet wars are a serious thing.

Just so annoying to try and have a legitimate discussion when someone wants to scream, shout, declare their self appointed expertise- but won't listen or acknowledge to other forum members when it doesn't suit them.

In the real world this is called 'delusion'.
None of that happened here.   I made some accurate statements that didn't align with what a couple trolls here wanted to believe... so they decided to bring up Jahlil Okafor and declare "victory" when I refused to take the bait.

actually, you used Chad Ford's ranking systems as a 'be all, end all' argument that people were more excited about Smart and that Smart was a higher touted prospect than Brown.

Celticsclay then pointed out that you thought Ford was worthless when it came to his discussions about Okafur's lack of value. (Because you value Okafur very highly) ..aka, Ford's info/opinion doesn't suit your Okafor appreciation.

You then replied and avoided his point about Chard Ford- who's tier system was the foundation and very basis of your argument- and then suggested that because Clay had pointed out your previously stated opinion on Chad Brown, that Clay was trying to change the topic- when you are clearly the one trying to change the topic and avoiding his question...a question which is completely fine and actually imperative as the basis of your argument.

He's asked you literally 5 times, and every time you avoid the question by saying you're 'not taking the bait', because you know that you can't acknowledge his point without admitting you were either wrong about Okafur or wrong about Ford's legitimacy as a draft tier specialist.

You do this all the time.
You're either ignoring a legitimate point because it doesn't suit your current mood/opinion or you are completely stupid. And you aren't stupid.
You love internet conflict and on the internet, it appears that you have a very hard time admitting or accepting that you may be wrong about certain Celtics stuff.

But yeah, you tend to ignore pretty much any comments or discussion that question your often bold declarations/ statements because you're either:
a) rude
b) hypocritical
c) wrong

...and then you play the bait card like 'I'm not taking the bait, you're just targeting me' as if other posters are coming after you when your attitude and disrespect towards other Celticsblog members were generally the spark that ignited the flame.

I mean this in the most honest, zero malice intended way, but your lack of rebuttal or acknowledgement on legit arguments or counter points to your arguments is disrespectful and attention seeking.
well said

Offline tankcity!

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Internet wars are a serious thing.

Just so annoying to try and have a legitimate discussion when someone wants to scream, shout, declare their self appointed expertise- but won't listen or acknowledge to other forum members when it doesn't suit them.

In the real world this is called 'delusion'.
None of that happened here.   I made some accurate statements that didn't align with what a couple trolls here wanted to believe... so they decided to bring up Jahlil Okafor and declare "victory" when I refused to take the bait.

actually, you used Chad Ford's ranking systems as a 'be all, end all' argument that people were more excited about Smart and that Smart was a higher touted prospect than Brown.
Yeah I get it... Chad Ford is a trigger for some folks here.   If it makes you feel better, ignore Ford.  There's still a mountain of media, scouts, analysts, websites, blogs, etc that you can look to for evidence that the 2014 Draft was seen as (at the time) a far superior draft than 2016.   The top 8 prospects in 2014 were thought to have all-star potential.   This year, the consensus was that there were 2 guys with legit star potential (Simmons and maybe Ingram) and a bunch of lesser prospects.   

I get that me using Ford's tier article ruffled some jimmies, but the point remains wholly accurate.  Smart was seen as a superior prospect in 2014 than Brown is today.  It's actually pretty hilarious to me that memories are this poor.   Smart was widely thought to be an NBA-Ready talent who could threaten for Rookie of the Year (if Rondo was traded) in what was widely regarded as a terrific draft.    Expectations for Brown are lower.  A lot of "experts" felt he was a reach at #3.  He isn't expected to make much of an impact in year 1.  If you truly are desperate for a source other than ESPN dismissing the quality of the 2016 Draft (particularly picks after 1 and 2), here's a quote from cbssports that reflects the general consensus:

Quote
. No getting around it: It's a down draft year

Hate to get negative, but this is the reality and a major plot point to this year's draft. The crop of college players isn't considered that deep, and that goes for the lottery pool as well. The 2013 class was considered weak, and yeah, we've seen a lot of validation of that theory in the three years since. Nearly every team in the lottery has made calls on trying to move down, and because the pool isn't so inspiring, don't be shocked if a lot of mock drafts you see wind up being off in terms of where guys are taken. Opinions vary wildly on a lot of prospects, so much so that you could see some big shifts -- which makes for good drama and shock value, if nothing else -- as the first round plays out on Thursday.

Just to reiterate, I'm more excited about Brown in 2016 than I was about Smart in 2014.   Facts is facts, though.  It's a tribute to my acceptance that players can defy expectations that I'm more pumped about Brown than I was about Smart - given that Smart was seen as a superior prospect to what the "experts" see Brown as.

Quote
Celticsclay then pointed out that you thought Ford was worthless when it came to his discussions about Okafur's lack of value. (Because you value Okafur very highly) ..aka, Ford's info/opinion doesn't suit your Okafor appreciation.

See above for a more in-depth response to this.  But I've been pretty consistent in my opinion of Okafor.   I get that some people don't understand what my opinion of Okafor is.  It's widely known that rival teams believe Okafor's trade value is low.  I'm not denying "sources" have told Ford this.  I've never denied that.  What a rival GM tells Chad Ford about Okafor doesn't really have anything to do with how Okafor will play long-term and whether or not Philly is willing to trade away Okafor for anything less than a significant piece.   I see a lot of trolls here celebrating about Okafor's "lack of trade value".   When he is traded for something insignificant, you can celebrate about how "right" you were... hopefully it's to Boston so we can celebrate together.  Until then, Okafor is a 76er and I assume getting him would take far more than anyone has offered.  Proof - Nobody has been able to acquire him yet.  Understand that Okafor being "worth very little" only matters if they are required to trade him.  They have him under contract for at least 3 years.  It doesn't matter if other teams think he is worth very little.  They can just keep him.  If a team like Boston wants him, they'll have to pay what Philly is willing to take.   Of course, this has nothing to do with Ford's draft tier article and it has even less to do with how excited you should be about Jaylen Brown.

Lbrrd. No one is arguing about Smart vs. Brown. You said earlier that the expectations were for him to average 20 points a game in his rookie season based on the tier he was on. That is a fact. That is exactly what you said. Clay is saying you should take the tier thing with a grain of salt.

Second, I've only seen one poster agree with you. And that person was agreeing with you on something the rest of the posters aren't even arguing about. Again, this isn't about Smart vs. Brown. This is about your rookie expectations on Smart.

Third, you don't actually tell it like it is. I'm not bias and I believe everyone on this board knows this about me. You on the other hand are very stubborn and ignore people's point. I've never seen you admit defeat no matter how wrong you are at certain times. I mean you called some posters a troll, and I don't think you meant me from what I read. But, dude look at your avatar picture. That's very hypocritical of you to say.

Fourth, to me it seems like you want attention. That's why you do this. You make asinine statements that get people riled up. You're taking the Felger and Mazz model. When you decided to write that article on the internet, it was then when I realized you want to make a career out of this. So it's pretty clear to me that you do make posts like this and then ignore people's points to rile them up to maybe advanced your career. By the way, I'm happy you stood up to Eddie. Shows you have a backbone. You should never let someone attack you like that about your personal life. Good for you bro.

Lastly, how come I knew Marcus Smart was overrated coming out of the draft? It's not rocket science to see that a the guy doesn't have a good first step. He wasn't even an efficient scorer in college. I mean either you don't have a brain for yourself and let Ford make your assumptions on player evaluation, or you're just playing dumb to win the argument because my freaking eyes told me this dude is going to have trouble scoring. I'll admit I thought he would be better than Tony Allen though. I think most people wanted him to be able to average 15 with amazing defense for his career.

It's just disappointing that you play games like this because you bring great insight and I think you have a really good understanding of what makes a team great. You have a great basketball mind, but the way you respond to posters just turns everything into a ****storm.


Offline hwangjini_1

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Internet wars are a serious thing.

Just so annoying to try and have a legitimate discussion when someone wants to scream, shout, declare their self appointed expertise- but won't listen or acknowledge to other forum members when it doesn't suit them.

In the real world this is called 'delusion'.
None of that happened here.   I made some accurate statements that didn't align with what a couple trolls here wanted to believe... so they decided to bring up Jahlil Okafor and declare "victory" when I refused to take the bait.

actually, you used Chad Ford's ranking systems as a 'be all, end all' argument that people were more excited about Smart and that Smart was a higher touted prospect than Brown.

Celticsclay then pointed out that you thought Ford was worthless when it came to his discussions about Okafur's lack of value. (Because you value Okafur very highly) ..aka, Ford's info/opinion doesn't suit your Okafor appreciation.

You then replied and avoided his point about Chard Ford- who's tier system was the foundation and very basis of your argument- and then suggested that because Clay had pointed out your previously stated opinion on Chad Brown, that Clay was trying to change the topic- when you are clearly the one trying to change the topic and avoiding his question...a question which is completely fine and actually imperative as the basis of your argument.

He's asked you literally 5 times, and every time you avoid the question by saying you're 'not taking the bait', because you know that you can't acknowledge his point without admitting you were either wrong about Okafur or wrong about Ford's legitimacy as a draft tier specialist.

You do this all the time.
You're either ignoring a legitimate point because it doesn't suit your current mood/opinion or you are completely stupid. And you aren't stupid.
You love internet conflict and on the internet, it appears that you have a very hard time admitting or accepting that you may be wrong about certain Celtics stuff.

But yeah, you tend to ignore pretty much any comments or discussion that question your often bold declarations/ statements because you're either:
a) rude
b) hypocritical
c) wrong

...and then you play the bait card like 'I'm not taking the bait, you're just targeting me' as if other posters are coming after you when your attitude and disrespect towards other Celticsblog members were generally the spark that ignited the flame.

I mean this in the most honest, zero malice intended way, but your lack of rebuttal or acknowledgement on legit arguments or counter points to your arguments is disrespectful and attention seeking.
well said
chambers points, all of them, are spot on, well written, and well intended. perhaps lb will eventually learn and grow emotionally with such advice. we can all hope. tp.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Offline LarBrd33

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Alright guys.  There's some really great points in this thread.  I'd like to take a moment to give credit to some of them.

#1 - I agree that Marcus Smart was considered a better prospect in 2014 than Brown was in 2016.  2014 was believed at the time to be a tremendous draft.  Smart was thought to have all-star potential.  He was believed to be NBA ready.   Brown is seen as a lesser prospect from a lesser draft.  Expectations are lower for Brown in the short term because he's thought to be less NBA ready.  Brown isn't widely expected to develop into an all star.  TP.

#2 -  Great point that Chad Ford's draft tiers reflect how scouts and execs feel about prospects prior to the draft.  You'll see similar consensus opinions from every other draft related source.  Smart was seen as a tier-2 prospect (potential all star).  Jaylen brown is seen as a tier 3/4 prospect (future starter/rotation player).  A lot of sources felt brown was a reach at #3.   If 2014 Smart and 2016 Brown were coming out in the same draft, I have to admit that Smart would go ahead of Brown.

#3 - Despite expectations, I'm more exited about Brown than I was about Smart.  The unknown is intriguing.  Also, expectations are often subverted.  Such was the case with players like Giannis (who went 15th and surpassed expectations) and such has been the case with Smart thus far (a very disappointing first two years).  So I'm banking on Brown defying expectations and developing into a superstar some day.  I know it's super unlikely, but I'm hoping for the best and I'm excited about his long term future. 

#4 - Excellent point on Ford's sources. I admit it's true that what rival GM's think of okafor's trade value has nothing to do with how Okafor will develop long term and whether or not Philly will trade him for a small pittance.  I've never doubted that ford's sources are telling him okafor has minimal trade value.  Obviously his trade value has taken a hit.   The point I've made is that Philly is unlikely to trade him away unless they get what they think he is worth.  So far, he hasn't been traded... So all these rival GM's saying how worthless he is hardly matters if those teams can't acquire him for their weak offers.  Tommy point.

#5 -  Yes, I agree that it's possible to quantify expectations between draft classes.  Yes, this is different than our expectations years later.  A great example:  Bucks fans were undoubtedly more excited about Jabari Parker in 2014 (#2 pick with huge expectations) than they were about Giannis in 2013 (#15 pick who at the time had far less expectations).  If you poll that fan base now, you might find a lot of them are far more excited about Giannis.   I agree we shouldn't ignore that point.  The expectations for Lebron James were significantly higher than the expectations for Anthony Bennett despite the fact they were both #1 picks by the Cavs.  The expectations for Dwyane Wade in 2003 were significantly higher than Cody Zeller in 2014 despite the fact Wade was a #5 pick and Zeller was a #4 pick.  And the expectations for Marcus smart were higher than the expectations for Jaylen brown despite the fact brown was a #3 pick.   Good news is, you don't have to agree with expectations. I'm sure there is someone out there that immediately thought Giannis was going to be a superstar and thought Jabari Parker was overrated. 

#6. Yes, it's way too early to call philly a failure or a success.  Several of their key players have yet to play a basketball game.  I agree that the super tanking method was intriguing and they are currently loaded with some prospects that could develop into superstars as a result.  Who knows if the process will work out, but it's hard not to be a little impressed with what they accomplished so far.   Hopefully they fail. 

#7  Thank you for the thoughtful PMs and compliments, but really I just need to reiterate that I'm just some random dumb Celtic fan. I never set out to have a following or fan club, so it's a little embarrassing when people tell me how much they enjoy my posts.  I just share my opinion of the team and post here for my own entertainment and because I love the Celtics and the NBA in general.  I think it's great if people disagree with me because it sparks discussion.  It's weird to me that people remember so many of my posts... I have a real hard time distinguishing one person from another on this forum. I probably couldn't tell you one way or the other how a certain member of this forum feels about a given topic. I just respond to the text as I see it without consideration for what that person may have said in the past.   Thanks nonetheless, but seriously there are a few members here who probably know way more about basketball than I do.  I wish they would post more and lurk less.

#8 I agree that the conversation about okafor was off topic and unnecessary. It seemed intended to side track this thread which is intended to be about excitement/expectations about Jaylen brown and Marcus smart.   I tried my best to avoid the tired old okafor conversation, but oh well.  I agree that my responses should put that side topic to rest so we can focus on what matters. 

Thanks guys.  It's a lot to think about.  This is a great forum.   I'm pumped for the upcoming season.  I'm hopeful smart makes a leap in year 3 and brown turns into a star long term.  TPs all around.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 01:25:23 PM by LarBrd33 »

Offline hwangjini_1

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guys, no matter what you intend or desire or argue or try to do with lb's insecurities and personality problems...

he..
will..
not...
change and has no desire to change.

please stop feeding him so at least whole threads are not eaten up by his need for attention.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Offline LarBrd33

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please stop feeding him


That post reminded me of a cat my old roommate had that was like 30 pounds.  All that thing would do is eat and take giant dumps.  I worried about the cat's health.   My roommate would just leave a giant bowl of food out for the cat all day.   I think what you're trying to say is that I'm comparable to an adorable obese fluffy hairball of a feline named Palacio.   I forget why they named the cat Palacio.  I think it was a family name.  I preferred to call him "Miracle Milt". 






Offline tarheelsxxiii

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I'll never understand why such intelligent people keep missing the bus here. By attempting to call him out for hypocrisy, you play right into his hand of developing a ton of attention to his threads/posts. That's what he wants, he's even banking on it. It brings him the attention he's craving for personal / professional gains; ironically, without it, there'd be no LB conundrum (i.e., he's such a good/high-upside poster, but horrible troll).

If it bothers you that much, put your efforts to ignoring him. Regardless of his primary motivation, it is glaringly apparent that he feeds off arousing emotions in others. It gives him a sense of control -- "Look how powerful I am... half the forum, including top posters, are dysregulated by me yet again." Quit feeding his narcissistic supply.
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Offline LarBrd33

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I think there's a little hyperbole there.

I made a few basic statements here that people apparently disagreed with (or rather, just feel like disagreeing with me about something so they would rather change the subject than address these statements).

1 - Smart was seen as a better prospect in 2014 than Brown is seen.    Others in this thread have confirmed that.

2 -  Smart has been a disappointment thus far.  Hard to argue against that when his shooting last year was historically bad.   Smart being a disappointment (thus far) has been confirmed by others in this thread. 

3 - I am more excited about Brown than I was about Smart.  Despite lower expectations from experts/media, I have more irrational hope in Brown's long-term prospects.  We've seen players (like Smart) defy expectations in the past so hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and exceeds expectations.   Many others in this thread are more excited about Brown as well, so I don't see the issue.

All three statements are relevant to this thread's purpose.

I also assume some people got upset at the Tyreke Evans comps, because Smart came nowhere close to matching that level of rookie offensive output.  It is what it is.  Tyreke Evans came up pretty often when discussing Smart in 2014.  Others here have confirmed that.

I can understand if folks are sensitive to statement #2, but it is what it is.   The idea that 2014 was thought to be a loaded draft with several potential all-stars and 2016 is an off draft with lesser prospects is pretty established across countless sources.  Perhaps it was a mistake to use Chad Ford's Draft Tiers as a source for establishing that expectations were higher for Smart.  Seems like it's a trigger for a few people and instead of discussing the three main points, they wanted to create a straw man argument about Ford's credibility.  I tried to avoid it, but eventually by popular demand explained my opinion of Ford's credibility.

I post in most threads.  They don't always devolve into attacks on my character.  When they do, I'll do my best to respond to the concerns - as I've done here sufficiently.    If anyone has any counter-points to my three basic statements, feel free to share them.  But arguing about Chad Ford's credibility or Jahlil Okafor's perceived trade value is entirely off-topic.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 02:55:08 PM by LarBrd33 »