Are you more excited about seeing Brown than you were about seeing Marcus...

[alldaboston]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

[celticsclay]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

Haha I am glad someone else noticed it. My points were pretty straight forward and valid and I guess without a valid response he slithered off into a topic change with his tail between his legs. TP for noticing.

[walker834]

I wanted Marcus and said that he was a volume scorer in college. I also said he gave us options with Rondo and was more a basketball player and not necessarily his replacement.  Does that count? 

I'm also excited for both equally though for different reasons.  I wanted both as well though.  Players developing does not disapoint me.  Yeah Marcus could have been better out of the gate but he's developing so what.  He's had to take a backseat to players in the offense with Isaiah running the show anyways and figure out his role in different ways.

I'm excited for Marcus a smidgen more.  I think this is the year he proves the doubters wrong.   Smart coming into the league really struck me though because of his leadership and defense.   Marcus is my favorite celtic although Bradley is up there and learning to be a fan of Isaiah. Horford good signing.  Was a bigger fan of KO than Sully coming in. Most people used to think Sully could do no wrong and KO was trash when Sully was blowing assignments on defense just the same as Jeff Green or anyone on that team.   Said Crowder was a steal in that trade at the time and was going to be what Bass should have been with more range.

I'm excited for Brown because he's a rookie and a human highlight reel with his athleticism.   Also love the way he takes it to the basket. He's a legit scorer and defender and wing player which we haven't had the likes of since Paul Pierce..

Ainge always manages to keep the players I like most so I'm apparently doing something right.  He also drafts the way  I usually expect him to.

I go against the grain quite a bit though, when most people were clamoring for Embiid I was wary of his injury. I wanted Marcus  and was one of the few and know this.  I also was on Embiid as a sleeper way before most people but as he rose up draft boards I did not think he was worth that especially with his foot.

[walker834]

What is appealing about Marcus is his leadership and defense.  He is a rare breed that way.  I wonder sometimes if he will ever get to be the leader he can be here but I hope so.  You have to score points to be a leader in ways especially from the guard spot.  But if he gets his percentages right I think he'll be that, and we'll start to see what he really can be here.  It's still tough for him with Isaiah here.  He needs to play point with Isaiah in the game and they need to switch off more where they both are truly a tandem. With Rozier in the mix it's going to be tough. Another player I liked though when a lot of people panned that pick.  Having those 3 guys is awesome. I hope we make it work. Smart not being a volume scorer here is fine but he needs to get his percentages right.  Bill Russell was never a huge scorer but he did it in other ways.  If Marcus is averaging 3 or 4 steals a game at the pro level with decent percentages and being a leader from the guard spot along with Isaiah, Bradley and Rozier people will take notice.  I'm really excited to see that all come together.

[Eddie20]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

Haha I am glad someone else noticed it. My points were pretty straight forward and valid and I guess without a valid response he slithered off into a topic change with his tail between his legs. TP for noticing.

I'll give LB the benefit of the doubt since he's a very busy guy and just probably posting on some Sixers board. You have to give the guy credit. He may write a lot of nonsense, but he sure writes a lot. His word per post is unrivaled.

[celticsclay]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

Haha I am glad someone else noticed it. My points were pretty straight forward and valid and I guess without a valid response he slithered off into a topic change with his tail between his legs. TP for noticing.

I'll give LB the benefit of the doubt since he's a very busy guy and just probably posting on some Sixers board. You have to give the guy credit. He may write a lot of nonsense, but he sure writes a lot. His word per post is unrivaled.

I know he is your long time adversary on here . That being said he clearly got backed into a corner by his comments and instead of saying either 1) your right. I can't say he is garbage for how he ranks Okafor but good for how he ranks other tiers (*waits for hell to freeze over) 2) yea they aren't really a legit ranking system so probably not worth debating.

Instead he says 3) don't want to address these topics i am so busy, so ill regurgitate the same stuff i have said repeatedly and hope nobody notices...

I'm just happy a few people noticed it.

[dannyboy35]

I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?

I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?

While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1.

Yeah, sorry, re % I was looking at the wrong category in basketball reference..

Tyreke Evans had 10 more minutes per game, and 10 more shots per game, on a team that won 25 games, as a rookie. That seems a weird comparison. I get that they are comparable players, just the other variables make this particular comparison too crazy.

I with you on 95% of the stuff you post on here, but this Marcus Smart stuff is just too weird.

Anyway, here's hoping Smart's decent shooting form near the end of last year becomes the norm, and we can all go back to firing Danny. 

I have to take issue with the poor man's Tony Allen comment too. What are you basing that on? I think I could make a case for him being a rich man's Tony Allen both at this stage of his career and projected out further to Smart's fifth year in the league (when TA got his first All-Defense nod, albeit second team)..

I would say right now it's fairly accurate to say smart is a poor man's Tony Allen. Allen is a much better defender and can still slash . They're both so bad at shooting that to me it's not even worth a comparison. Smart can't stay with a pg as of now and although more careful with the ball I definitely think Allen is more skilled with handle.

[mctyson]

I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   

No way.  Jaylen Brown was #2 behind Ben Simmons coming out of high school.  He is a much higher quality prospect than Marcus was. 

Though that doesn't mean he will be equally as good or better of an NBA player.

[showtime]

much more excited about Brown. Was not excited at all about the Smart pick, and he has proven me right!!

[LarBrd33]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

Haha I am glad someone else noticed it. My points were pretty straight forward and valid and I guess without a valid response he slithered off into a topic change with his tail between his legs. TP for noticing.

Clay, I assume you wrote more of the same.  I didn't read it.  Rather stick on topic this time.  Ping me if you have a direct question.

[celticsclay]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

Haha I am glad someone else noticed it. My points were pretty straight forward and valid and I guess without a valid response he slithered off into a topic change with his tail between his legs. TP for noticing.

Clay, I assume you wrote more of the same.  I didn't read it.  Rather stick on topic this time.  Ping me if you have a direct question.

 i did ping you, but others would like to see your answer to this inconsistency. In simple terms


1) chad ford presents tiers as way of projecting career path - larbrd says this is good and presents as evidence
2) chad ford says okafor trade value low, sixers cant get top 6 pick in draft, ranks him 6th in rookie class - larbrd says chad ford is making up stuff and idiot
3) celticsclay and rest of forum = 

[LarBrd33]

I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   

No way.  Jaylen Brown was #2 behind Ben Simmons coming out of high school.  He is a much higher quality prospect than Marcus was. 

Though that doesn't mean he will be equally as good or better of an NBA player.

Hopefully they both end up stars.  It would be a real shame if both of those guys ended up role players.

I'm more optimistic about Jaylen's future than I was about Smart's in 2014.  Certainly more optimistic about his future than Smart's right now.   I knew Smart was projected as being a borderline star, but I have a bias against undersized shooting guards who can't shoot.  And while opinions of Jaylen range from "future bench player" to "future star", I'm still pretty excited about the possibilities with him.

[alldaboston]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

Haha I am glad someone else noticed it. My points were pretty straight forward and valid and I guess without a valid response he slithered off into a topic change with his tail between his legs. TP for noticing.

TP back at ya man. LarBrd makes good posts here (for the most part), but when there's evidence against what he's saying, he completely ignores it. It's a shame, it prevents some good discussion.

[LarBrd33]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

Haha I am glad someone else noticed it. My points were pretty straight forward and valid and I guess without a valid response he slithered off into a topic change with his tail between his legs. TP for noticing.

Clay, I assume you wrote more of the same.  I didn't read it.  Rather stick on topic this time.  Ping me if you have a direct question.

 i did ping you, but others would like to see your answer to this inconsistency. In simple terms


1) chad ford presents tiers as way of projecting career path - larbrd says this is good and presents as evidence
2) chad ford says okafor trade value low, sixers cant get top 6 pick in draft, ranks him 6th in rookie class - larbrd says chad ford is making up stuff and idiot
3) celticsclay and rest of forum = 

Ford: "Teams group players based on overall talent and potential. Then, the teams rank the players in each tier based on need. After talking to several GMs and scouts whose teams employ this system, here is how the tiers look this year."

The annual draft tier article is not the same as his mock draft.  It usually comes out a day or two before the actual draft and the draft typically shakes out as the "Draft Tier" article lays out... with the guys projected "Potential Franchise Players" going at the top... the guys projected "Potential all-stars" going next, the guys projected "NBA Starters" going next, etc.   

I'll use the 2013 example again.  In 2013, scouts/GM's didn't feel there was any single player in the top 2 tiers (potential franchise players/potential all-stars).   Hence, Anthony Bennett went #1.   The purpose of that article is to tell us how scouts feel about these guys when they enter the draft.   No scouts or GMs saw Anthony Bennett as a potential franchise player.  Yes, he went 1st.  Yes, in a mock draft he would have been seen as being selected in the "Top tier"... and I can see how that confuses some folks.   Ford's annual draft article doesn't refer to where the player is selected... it refers to the quality of the player as a prospect in comparison to every prospect who has ever entered the draft.  Maybe he should call it something other than a "tier".  But the point is, Anthony Bennett (despite being a #1 pick) was seen as a far lesser prospect than Karl Anthony Towns last year or Andrew Wiggins in 2014 or Anthony Davis in 2012.   THe point is, if those guys were all coming out at the same time, it wouldn't be a toss-up between taking Anthony Bennett and Karl Towns.  NOBODY would have taken Bennett over those guys.  Why?  BEcause he was a lesser prospect.   

You accept that, yes?   You aren't arguing that all #1 picks are made equally, are you?  Do you think Tim Duncan was seen as the same level of prospect as Kenyon Martin?   Do you think that Shaq was seen as the same level of prospect as Joe Smith?   They were all #1 picks... I assume you are aware that not all prospects are created equally in the eyes of scouts/GMs, right?

You're aware that Blake Griffin, Yao Ming and LeBron James were seen as vastly superior prospects to Michael Olowakandi and Kwame Brown, right?  They were all #1 picks...  But they were different level prospects.

Are you disputing this entire concept?  Do you think all #1 picks are created equally?  All #2 picks are created equally?  Surely, you're aren't that oblivious.

So, based on that annual draft article (unless you're assuming Ford is completely lying every year in spite of the fact the draft shakes roughly in line what what the tiers suggest), Jaylen Brown was seen as  Tier3/4 prospect.   Marcus Smart was seen as a Tier 2 prospect.  Meaning, if they came out at the same time, Brown would likely be drafted after Smart, because Scouts/GMs (according to Ford) saw Marcus Smart as a higher caliber prospect than Jaylen Brown.

You can stomp your feet and try to discredit Chad Ford's reporting in general... and that's fine.  But until someone else claims to speak directly to a ton of scouts/gms to form a consensus "Tier" article, he's our Go-To.  And discrediting Chad Ford's reporting isn't going to change the fact that the Brown selection at #3 was widely seen by the majority of people covering the draft as a reach.   The majority of the media had him going later than #3.   Why?  Because that's the info they got from scouts/gms... just like Ford.   

It's also not going to change the fact that the 2014 draft was WIDELY seen as a better draft than 2016.   That doesn't mean that 2014 was a lock to be great and 2016 is a lock to be underwhelming.  It just means that expectations for guys picked after Ben Simmons are far lesser than expectations for guys picked after Wiggins in 2014.  This year, after Simmons (and maybe Ingram) it was seen as more or less a crap shoot.  Some thought Dunn should go next.  Some thought Marquis Chriss should go next.  Some thought it should be Hield.  Some thought it should be Murray.  Some thought it was Brown.  Nobody really thought anyone from that group projected as a lock as an all-star.  Whereas, in 2014 the expectations were that Parker, Embiid and Wiggins were all possible franchise talent, while guys like Smart, Gordon, Exum and Randle all had definite all-star potential.   

If the fact we're talking about two Boston Celtics makes this conversation too hot for you to handle, we can use a non-Celtic example.   Based on the info Ford has relayed from Scouts/GMs, we can come to the conclusion that if Doug McDermott was coming out the same year as Buddy Hield, there's a chance McDermott would have been selected over Hield based on how Scouts/GMs apparently saw them as prospects.

[LarBrd33]

I skimmed the last couple pages.  Saw my name a bunch.  Instead of responding to everyone, I'll keep it simple.

Translation: Celticsclay called me out and I don't know how to respond to that, so here, let me say a bunch of irrelevant stuff I've already said before.

Haha I am glad someone else noticed it. My points were pretty straight forward and valid and I guess without a valid response he slithered off into a topic change with his tail between his legs. TP for noticing.

I'll give LB the benefit of the doubt since he's a very busy guy and just probably posting on some Sixers board. You have to give the guy credit. He may write a lot of nonsense, but he sure writes a lot. His word per post is unrivaled.

Eddie, you love to take not-so-subtle digs at my personal life.  It's cute.  You'd hate me so much if you actually knew what my life was like.  If in your mind, my world revolves around a love of the 76ers, I think that's terrific.