Author Topic: Are you more excited about seeing Brown than you were about seeing Marcus...  (Read 39245 times)

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Offline celticsclay

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.
lol at the tiers. They are so off we might as well talk about pogs
I don't think you understand what the tiers are.

Believe me I do. We have discussed this previously and we when we looked at them from previous drafts they just didn't pan out as accurate and in some cases were completely laughable. Whether he is really polling scouts and executives or just making stuff up as he goes, they have proven to be awful predictors. Larbrd I think you personally could make better guesses than the tier system has ended up putting out.
Looking at them from previous drafts misses the point.  The fact that your hot take is to look at the previous drafts and laugh off the "tiers" essentially proves you don't understand the concept.

IF you're ignorant enough to believe that Scouts can't tell the difference between a Karl Towns, Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin or John Wall level prospect... from a Anthony Bennett, Nik Stauskas or Jaylen Brown level prospect, I don't know what I could possibly tell you to help you understand the concept of Ford's yearly article.

Yes, there will be guys labelled "Tier 1" that will bust (Greg Oden, for instance).   And yes, there will be guys labelled "Tier 4-6" that will greatly exceed expectations (Rudy Gorbert for instance)...  But looking at how players progressed has very little to do with how they are perceived when they entered the draft.   Smart was supposed to be more "can't-miss" than Jaylen is right now.  Jaylen might exceed expectations.  If he does, great.   But there's a decent chance he fails.  That would be less surprising than how disappointing Smart has been.
yes any idiot can tell John wall is a top level all star that people expected to make many all star games. That is not what the value would be. The value would be whether it has any value in actually guess Which players turn into starters, rotation players or bench scrubs. When his system has Jeff Whithey being the same level prospect as Rudy gobert or the Greak freak either the scouts he claims to be talking to don't watch international basketball or he is just making stuff up again.

Offline trickybilly

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

You sure are rough man. 15+ ppg, 35% from three, second team all-defence, in his third season for a number 6 pick (setting aside your valid points about pre-draft expectations being top tier) - that is still a disappointment (of sorts)??? I can't go with you there, that seems OTT homie.

By the way, I think his "future star" label is already gone, but his "multi-year all-star" label is very much still a realistic probability.

There are just SO many top 10 guys that stink, that if you get a guy with ++ defense, and average offense (including hustle/mop up offense), in the BACK half of the top 10, you simply cannot apply a "disappointment" label. And this all discounts the fact that it is just awesome to watch him play, and his 1-per-game highlight plays..

Well, I said I didn't want to get into an argument about Marcus and I've done and gone and typed this all out. I'm happy agreeing to disagree about this. Marcus Rulez. 2017, Banner 18 baby....
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Offline LarBrd33

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.
lol at the tiers. They are so off we might as well talk about pogs
I don't think you understand what the tiers are.

Believe me I do. We have discussed this previously and we when we looked at them from previous drafts they just didn't pan out as accurate and in some cases were completely laughable. Whether he is really polling scouts and executives or just making stuff up as he goes, they have proven to be awful predictors. Larbrd I think you personally could make better guesses than the tier system has ended up putting out.
Looking at them from previous drafts misses the point.  I still don't think you understand it.
it is not complicated at all. Coming from a guy that retroactively altered his draft boards to appear smarter I don't even 100% believe he is getting the kind of input he claims to even develop them. Keep posting it by all means and telling other posters they don't understand them though. It's real great material

Clay, in Pokemon Go terms... just because Jaylen is a 2K egg doesn't mean he's automatically going to be Pidgey or Zubat... there's a chance that 2K egg hatches something rare like a Squirtle, Charmander, or Pikachu.  On the flip side, just because Smart was a 10K egg doesn't mean he was automatically going to be a Lapras, Snorlax, Chansee, Aerodacyl, Magmar, or Pinsor... there's a chance he ends up a regular ol Eevee.  Not every top tier/10K egg ends up a super rare Pokemon... it just means that scouts/experts think it's far more likely.   

The point of Ford's yearly article is to find out from Scouts which of the prospects they see as 10K eggs, 5K eggs and 2k eggs.   You never REALLY know what they'll end up being, though.  You just know that 10K has a much higher chance of being a rare/star.  Knowing that some drafts (like 2013) have no 10K eggs is interesting, but it doesn't mean it's impossible for one of those 2K eggs to end up something significant regardless.

So telling me after the fact, "I looked at what the eggs hatched and all the 10k eggs ended up Eevees and a couple of the 2K ended up Charmanders... Charmanders are way better than Eevees so clearly the egg system is broken" misses the point.  You've been missing the point for a while. 

Smart was actually more of a 5K egg (outside of the 10K tier that Wiggins, Parker and Embiid sat in).  I was expecting a Ponyta, but so far it looks like he's going to be a Polywag.  He hasn't fully hatched yet, though... we'll see what happens.   Brown is a 2K egg... but I'm feelin pretty excited about this one.  I have high hopes he'll be a Bulbasaur. 

« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 03:23:55 AM by LarBrd33 »

Offline LarBrd33

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1. 

Offline alldaboston

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1.

So because "multiple people" compared Smart to Evans, you're gonna go with the word of "multiple people" and say that Smart has to have a season like Evans, or else he's a disappointment?

Those same "multiple people" compared Ben Simmons to Magic Johnson, to Lebron James. If Ben Simmons doesn't have the rookie season that Magic or Lebron had, is he a disappointment? Or nah, since he plays for what seems to be your favorite NBA team along with the Celtics.
Don't forget, those same "multiple people" also compared Brandon Ingram to Kevin Durant. If Ingram doesn't have the rookie season that KD had, is he also a disappointment?

The "multiple people" aren't always right, you know...
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

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Offline trickybilly

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1.

Yeah, sorry, re % I was looking at the wrong category in basketball reference..

Tyreke Evans had 10 more minutes per game, and 10 more shots per game, on a team that won 25 games, as a rookie. That seems a weird comparison. I get that they are comparable players, just the other variables make this particular comparison too crazy.

I with you on 95% of the stuff you post on here, but this Marcus Smart stuff is just too weird.

Anyway, here's hoping Smart's decent shooting form near the end of last year becomes the norm, and we can all go back to firing Danny.  :angel:

I have to take issue with the poor man's Tony Allen comment too. What are you basing that on? I think I could make a case for him being a rich man's Tony Allen both at this stage of his career and projected out further to Smart's fifth year in the league (when TA got his first All-Defense nod, albeit second team)..



« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 05:44:25 AM by trickybilly »
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Offline LarBrd33

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1.

So because "multiple people" compared Smart to Evans, you're gonna go with the word of "multiple people" and say that Smart has to have a season like Evans, or else he's a disappointment?

Those same "multiple people" compared Ben Simmons to Magic Johnson, to Lebron James. If Ben Simmons doesn't have the rookie season that Magic or Lebron had, is he a disappointment? Or nah, since he plays for what seems to be your favorite NBA team along with the Celtics.
Don't forget, those same "multiple people" also compared Brandon Ingram to Kevin Durant. If Ingram doesn't have the rookie season that KD had, is he also a disappointment?

The "multiple people" aren't always right, you know...
"Multiple people" = widely believed to be a prospect with star potential.  2014 was thought to be a tremendous draft and Smart was one of around 8 prospects that were believed to be possible stars.  Smart was thought to be one of the two most NBA ready in that draft class.  He hasn't lived up to those expectations at all.  He was one of the worst offensive players in the league last year.  He's been disappointing to anyone not moving goal posts.  Next year is a big one for him.   

My expectations of Smart were greater than they are for Brown - and rightfully so.  Smart was a higher level prospect than Brown is.  Few project Brown to be a star.  Here's hoping he gets there. 

All that said, I'm more excited about Brown than I was about Smart.  I'm intrigued by the type of player Brown can become if he surpasses expectations.

Online jpotter33

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1.

As I've said many times on here, you're the one to blame for your disappointment with Smart. Those are totally unrealistic numbers to expect from him. You just had way too high of expectations for him.

And I really question the claim that many said he was going to put up similar stats to someone like Tyreke, which is about as much of an outlier for a rookie as there can be. What I remember was that everyone said he was the most NBA ready top prospect, which was pretty much true, and he'd earn his time on the floor defensively and mostly only get opportunistic offense. He's not far off from that projection. Sure, his offense hasn't progressed nearly as much as I thought it would, though injury and role on the team definitely has halted his progress there, but he's blown away expectations with his defense. So I think you really sell Smart short for the value he has for this team. It really says something for his overall value to the team that he can put up those God-awful offensive percentages and still average as many minutes as he does on a playoff team, even a playoff team with the third best record last year.

But I expect he'll win many more fans over this year in a better-suited role for himself as the leader of the second unit.

Online jpotter33

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1.

So because "multiple people" compared Smart to Evans, you're gonna go with the word of "multiple people" and say that Smart has to have a season like Evans, or else he's a disappointment?

Those same "multiple people" compared Ben Simmons to Magic Johnson, to Lebron James. If Ben Simmons doesn't have the rookie season that Magic or Lebron had, is he a disappointment? Or nah, since he plays for what seems to be your favorite NBA team along with the Celtics.
Don't forget, those same "multiple people" also compared Brandon Ingram to Kevin Durant. If Ingram doesn't have the rookie season that KD had, is he also a disappointment?

The "multiple people" aren't always right, you know...
"Multiple people" = widely believed to be a prospect with star potential.  2014 was thought to be a tremendous draft and Smart was one of around 8 prospects that were believed to be possible stars.  Smart was thought to be one of the two most NBA ready in that draft class.  He hasn't lived up to those expectations at all.  He was one of the worst offensive players in the league last year.  He's been disappointing to anyone not moving goal posts.  Next year is a big one for him.

You're the only one that I've seen who has compared him to, or at least expected something similar as, Tyreke Evans in his rookie year, which is illogical anyways due to that being a major outlier in rookie seasons.

Offline LarBrd33

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1.

As I've said many times on here, you're the one to blame for your disappointment with Smart. Those are totally unrealistic numbers to expect from him. You just had way too high of expectations for him.
Nah.  You're just moving goal posts.  Anyone who expected Marcus Smart to be shooting 34% and 22% from three while coming off the bench as a defensive role player deep into his second season would never have advocated taking him #6.   That's mid-to-late 1st round pick production... Not production expected from a Top 6 pick in what was widely believed to be the best draft in a decade. 

Spare me the "your expectations were too high" excuses.  Smart has unquestionable been a massive disappointment.  The good news is that he has another year where making a major leap is plausible. 

And in context of this thread it hardly matters.  Despite acknowledging that Smart was believed to be a superior prospect to what Brown is, I'm still more excited about Brown's potential future than I was about Smart's future.

Reason being:  The D Wade comps seemed ridiculous.  Smart was thought to be a Tyreke Evans type who would contribute immediately but never be a superstar.  Whereas, Brown might be a total bust, but he seems to have the physical tools and raw skillset that might give him a higher ceiling in the unlikely scenario he surpasses expectations.  If everything comes together for Brown, he has a chance to be better than Tyreke Evans. 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 06:21:48 AM by LarBrd33 »

Online jpotter33

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As for the OP, I don't think so due to the differing contexts.

Smart was the first high draft pick that we had picked for quite a while, and we knew that he was going to get a ton of playing time. We also pretty much sucked all year to get him, so he was treasured. He was also viewed as the next great Celtic leader to lead us into the promised land, which I still think he will end up being.

Brown, on the other hand, is coming at a much different time. We're one of the best teams in the NBA, and it feels like we're not even close to being done yet being so young and so many assets still. This means that Brown won't get too much playing time this year, and we have actual winning to focus on.

I wanted a trade on draft night, but I didn't mind the Brown pick over others. He's quickly become one of my favorite Celtics, and I'm guessing I'll end up liking him just as much as Smart this year.

I'm just excited and ready for the season to finally start!

Offline Big333223

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As for the OP, I don't think so due to the differing contexts.

Smart was the first high draft pick that we had picked for quite a while, and we knew that he was going to get a ton of playing time. We also pretty much sucked all year to get him, so he was treasured. He was also viewed as the next great Celtic leader to lead us into the promised land, which I still think he will end up being.

Brown, on the other hand, is coming at a much different time. We're one of the best teams in the NBA, and it feels like we're not even close to being done yet being so young and so many assets still. This means that Brown won't get too much playing time this year, and we have actual winning to focus on.

I wanted a trade on draft night, but I didn't mind the Brown pick over others. He's quickly become one of my favorite Celtics, and I'm guessing I'll end up liking him just as much as Smart this year.

I'm just excited and ready for the season to finally start!
Yeah, it's so different with Brown than it was with Smart.

On top of that, I think I'd say I'm more excited for what Brown can eventually be than I was for Smart but I think it's going to take a couple of seasons so while I am excited to see Brown play this year, I'm more excited for a time in the future when he'll be better able to play to his potential.
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Offline dannyboy35

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Only after comparing summer leagues. From who was left I supported the smart pick and was surprised at the brown pick but wasn't upset. I liked that I think Danny taking a guy that may take some time relieved by nervousness about Stevens letting guys with higher feeling sit the pond too much more.
  As soon as I saw smart need to pick up the ball under summer league pressure and not be able to drive and finish I lost a lot of hope on his ceiling right away and it hasn't returned. I think he's a great role player to have though.
  To me, brown showed no signs of bad handle. He wasn't picking up the ball, lived to drive and would get fouled and he has a better looking shot to me than smart. He's a much better athlete too. Even though both their aberages stink from outside I'm more comfortable seeing brown( at least now) shoot an open corner 3 than smart. Anytime smart shoots I kinda cringe.

Offline dreamgreen

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I am, I wasn't excited about the Smart pick and he didn't do anything in Summer League to change that for me. Honestly he is still lacking in excitement for me, I think he brings a lot of good things but not impressed so far as a lottery pick. As for Brown I wasn't that excited about him either but his Summer League was impressive to me and I'm starting to have high hopes!

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I think Smart was seen as a higher quality prospect than Jaylen Brown is.   Like if you check out Chad Ford's yearly "Draft Tier" article, apparently according to scouts/experts Marcus Smart was a "Tier-2" level prospect... meaning a player with all-star potential.   Brown is seen as anywhere from Tier-3 (starter potential) or Tier-4 (rotation player potential).   

Despite this, guys can always disappoint or exceed expectations.  In the case of Smart, he been a major disappointment thus far and hasn't at all lived up to what he was billed as.  For two years, he's been nothing more than a defensive role player and offensive albatross.   Hopefully Brown goes in the other direction and vastly surpasses what people think he'll be.  The fact that he's 19 and shows some raw ability has me really excited to watch him develop.  I'm looking forward to seeing what he turns into long-term.  I have no expectations in year 1.  He's really raw and looks like he's a long way away from contributing.

What offensive production this year from Marcus would get you to change your opinion of him as a "major disappointment"?
I have hope Marcus will improve.  A lot of players have made leaps in Year 3.   But going into the draft he was supposed to be one of the two most "NBA Ready" players in the lotto and a lot of people compared his offensive game to Tyreke Evans (who averaged 20 points and 5 assists as a rookie).   A lot of us had reasonably high expectations that his floor was a high quality player on both ends of the court.  The belief was that he made Rondo instantly expendable.   Last year, he was literally one of the worst offensive players in the league.  He's been great at certain things and dreadful at others. 

Unless a switch flips and he shows that two-way potential we expected, there's not a lot he can do to shake the "major disappointment" label.  I have hope, though.

Agree entirely: with respect though, you didn't really answer my question.

What about 35%, 13pts/5assists.

Does he creep out of the "major disappointment" category if he gets that done?
While 13 points/5 assists and 35% shooting would be an improvement, it would be a long way off from shaking the "major disappointment" label.  If that's his numbers next season, the Marcus Smart hype train basically screeches to a halt.  He'd officially transition from "future star" to "long term role player".  I assume his trade value would take a big hit as well.  While he'd still have value as a defensive role player, his "future star" label would basically disappear.

If he gets his numbers up to 15+ points and his FG% above 40%, he'll shake the "Major" part of the "major disappointment" label.  But it would still be a disappointment.

I meant 35% from three. He was at .427 from the field last year.

Smart shot 34% last season and 25% from three.   Literally one of the worst offensive players in the league so far.

For me to not be disappointed in him, I'd have to see him average close to what Tyreke Evans did as a rookie:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 46% shooting.  That was what multiple people compared him to when he entered the league.   Tyreke Evans floor with Dwayne Wade ceiling.  He's been nowhere near that so far.  He's been a poor man's Tony Allen.

If Smart averages 15 points with 40% shooting that would be pretty awesome... but still falling short of what people expected him to be on the offensive end.  Good news is, he's got great intangibles and is a strong defender.  I like him.  I have hope he'll become much better.  But if we're talking about him shaking the "major disappointment" label, he has to start looking like the player we thought we were getting from day 1.

So because "multiple people" compared Smart to Evans, you're gonna go with the word of "multiple people" and say that Smart has to have a season like Evans, or else he's a disappointment?

Those same "multiple people" compared Ben Simmons to Magic Johnson, to Lebron James. If Ben Simmons doesn't have the rookie season that Magic or Lebron had, is he a disappointment? Or nah, since he plays for what seems to be your favorite NBA team along with the Celtics.
Don't forget, those same "multiple people" also compared Brandon Ingram to Kevin Durant. If Ingram doesn't have the rookie season that KD had, is he also a disappointment?

The "multiple people" aren't always right, you know...
"Multiple people" = widely believed to be a prospect with star potential.  2014 was thought to be a tremendous draft and Smart was one of around 8 prospects that were believed to be possible stars.  Smart was thought to be one of the two most NBA ready in that draft class.  He hasn't lived up to those expectations at all.  He was one of the worst offensive players in the league last year.  He's been disappointing to anyone not moving goal posts.  Next year is a big one for him.

You're the only one that I've seen who has compared him to, or at least expected something similar as, Tyreke Evans in his rookie year, which is illogical anyways due to that being a major outlier in rookie seasons.

Seriously.  Tyreke Evans had a better rookie season than Lebron James, yet somehow not reaching those stats is a disappointment for the 6th overall pick in a draft that was barely above average (despite some people insisting that it was epic)
I'm bitter.