Author Topic: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons  (Read 27982 times)

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Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2016, 02:42:02 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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"Talent sets the floor, character sets the ceiling".

Enough said let's bring this thread back in a year or two...

Character sets the ceiling?  The following guys may disagree:

- Lebron James is the best player in the NBA arguably, and he has horrendous character. 
- Dwight Howard was the best center in the NBA for years, and again, horrible character. 
- Draymond Green is a top 5 PF in the NBA and yet again - shocking character.
- Ditto Rondo during his prime. 
- Cousins is the best center in the NBA now, poor character

They have been pretty good in their prime, and not exactly shining with character

As for the "talent sets the floor" argument, you may want to explain that one to Perry Jones!

Lol! Maybe we should start by agreeing on a definition of the word character...
To contest that quote is to imply that just with Talent and without a strong minded competitor spirit that pushes you to go the extra mile and produce the necessary efforts, you can just come in a dominate just because you are talented.
You can see and interpret that quote as you see but the point is Talent ALONE is not enough! You also need EFFORT (consistent), COMMITMENT (to perfect your craft), and sometimes also LUCK (Avoid injuries, fit with team, good coaching to harvest your skills), etc.
By the way, that quote is from Bill Belichick himself...
You can go tell him what you think about his quote.
I personally see in Simmons Flawed Talent (no Jumpers, no post moves) and Little Effort (maybe my personal view but effort wise Simmons didn't bring it as much as I would have expected).
Doesn't mean he can't turn it out and be a dominant force going forward.
But for now, until today, I dont see him as a dominant force and like the skills Jaylen Brown is bringing to the table for my team. Let's see in a couple of years who is the best overall player on both ends of the court...

Pretty much.

Just look at Lebron.  His combination of size/strength/athleticism is arguably unlike we've ever seen in this league.  Add to that his basketball IQ, his court vision, his body control and his natural basketball instincts - for a guy with that type of talent it would have been [dang] near impossible for him to become anything less then an All-Star.  If he didn't try AT ALL he'd probably still be a 20/5/5 guy.

You could say the same for Shaq or Wilt Chamberlain in their era.  This guys were so physically dominant against anybody they came up against that they could have cruised on a nightly basis and still dominated.

On the other hand if you look at a guy like Jimmy Butler or Paul Pierce - those guys aren't gifted with elite talent.  Both around 6'7" which is dead on average for a SF.  Neither had dominant athleticism and neither was exactly a natural born shooter.  On paper neither one of those guys should be anything more then a decent starter or a really good role player, yet both managed to be legitimate stars - and I guarantee it didn't come easy for either one of them.  Both guys would have had to work their butts off in order to dominate the way they have. 

I think I do get what he's trying to say with the quote, but I think he's said it wrong.

To me a player's floor and ceiling are both measures of potential - high BAD the player could potentially become (floor) versus high GOOD the player could potentially become (ceiling).  I think both limits are set by talent.

For example Lebron was never going to be a bench warmer with his level of talent.  He was never going to be a fringe starter.  He was never going to be even just a solid starter.  With the talent he has he could make zero effort and he'd probably still be an All-Star or at the very least a borderline All-Star.  Hence the floor is, indeed, determined by his talent.

However with Lebron's talent, he had the potential to become the greatest player ever to play the game.  That is, ultimately, his ceiling.  What has determined that ceiling?  Again, it's his talent.

What character determines is where (within that 'floor-to-ceiling' range) the player actually ends up reaching.

So perhaps a more accurate quote would be "talent determines the potential, character determines the reality".

Avery Bradley is a great example.  He's got some talent for sure, but he's certainly not supremely talented.  He's got a lot of limitations in his talent - lack of height, lack of offensive instincts (play-making), lack of hand/eye coordination (ball handling), etc.   This lack of talent is what has ultimately limited his ceiling to that of a good starter / fringe All-Star.  Bradley has some of the greatest individual character in the NBA in every way imaginable (motor, work ethic, selflessness, etc) and because of that he has already, at the age of 25, come extremely close to reaching that ceiling. 

But everybody knows that no matter how great Bradley's character is, he's not going to suddenly take a massive leap and develop into a top 5 player in the NBA 2-3 years from now. He's not going to find himself up there with the Lebron's, Durant's, Westbrook's (etc) among the NBA elite.   Why do we know that?  Because unfortunately for AB, he quite simply doesn't have the talent.   

All the character in the world doesn't RAISE your ceiling as a player - it merely increases the probability of you one day reach it.  No amount of work will make AB grow into a 6'8" / 250 pound freak.  No amount of work will allow AB to dribble the ball like Kyrie, or see the floor like Rondo.   It's just not in him. 

Likewise not even his utter disregard for his body and complete lack of discipline were able to stop Jared Sullinger from being a fringe starter at the NBA level - he's just too darn talented to ever fall below that point.   
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 03:46:49 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2016, 02:57:37 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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"Talent sets the floor, character sets the ceiling".

Enough said let's bring this thread back in a year or two...

Character sets the ceiling?  The following guys may disagree:

- Lebron James is the best player in the NBA arguably, and he has horrendous character. 
- Dwight Howard was the best center in the NBA for years, and again, horrible character. 
- Draymond Green is a top 5 PF in the NBA and yet again - shocking character.
- Ditto Rondo during his prime. 
- Cousins is the best center in the NBA now, poor character

They have been pretty good in their prime, and not exactly shining with character

As for the "talent sets the floor" argument, you may want to explain that one to Perry Jones!

Lol! Maybe we should start by agreeing on a definition of the word character...
To contest that quote is to imply that just with Talent and without a strong minded competitor spirit that pushes you to go the extra mile and produce the necessary efforts, you can just come in a dominate just because you are talented.
You can see and interpret that quote as you see but the point is Talent ALONE is not enough! You also need EFFORT (consistent), COMMITMENT (to perfect your craft), and sometimes also LUCK (Avoid injuries, fit with team, good coaching to harvest your skills), etc.
By the way, that quote is from Bill Belichick himself...
You can go tell him what you think about his quote.
I personally see in Simmons Flawed Talent (no Jumpers, no post moves) and Little Effort (maybe my personal view but effort wise Simmons didn't bring it as much as I would have expected).
Doesn't mean he can't turn it out and be a dominant force going forward.
But for now, until today, I dont see him as a dominant force and like the skills Jaylen Brown is bringing to the table for my team. Let's see in a couple of years who is the best overall player on both ends of the court...

Not meaning to be a smarty pants here, but the quote was:
"Talent sets the floor, character sets the ceiling"

With all due respect to Bill Belichick, that's a pretty stupid quote. 

It's a stupid quote because there have obviously been lots of talented players who have struggled mightily to ever crack a rotation.  There have also been a ton of lots of high character players who have never become anything close to stars, and tons of low character (and highly talented) players who have become stars.   

If you like you can try to read between the lines and create assumptions about what Belichick meant to say, with the aim of defending his credibility, then you can do that.  You can insist that he meant to say "you need talent and hard work", but that's not what he said, so insisting this would be making assumptions and putting words in his mouth. 

We don't know what he meant, and we don't know what he was thinking.  All we know is what he said - and what he said was, quite honestly, pretty darn illogical.

Because if talent really did determine floor and character really did determine ceiling, then:

1) Guys like Perry Jones and James Young should getting meaningful minutes on NBA teams by now

2) Guys like Brandon Bass, Amir Johnson and Derek Fisher should have been All-Stars

Huh?  Dude can't even dribble with his 'strong hand', lol ::) ;D, and the only thing worse than that is his consistently putting more effort into his hairdo as opposed to his 'game' - whatever that is ::). Ugh.

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #212 on: August 25, 2016, 11:51:56 AM »

Offline drogbagarnett

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"Talent sets the floor, character sets the ceiling".

Enough said let's bring this thread back in a year or two...

Character sets the ceiling?  The following guys may disagree:

- Lebron James is the best player in the NBA arguably, and he has horrendous character. 
- Dwight Howard was the best center in the NBA for years, and again, horrible character. 
- Draymond Green is a top 5 PF in the NBA and yet again - shocking character.
- Ditto Rondo during his prime. 
- Cousins is the best center in the NBA now, poor character

They have been pretty good in their prime, and not exactly shining with character

As for the "talent sets the floor" argument, you may want to explain that one to Perry Jones!

Lol! Maybe we should start by agreeing on a definition of the word character...
To contest that quote is to imply that just with Talent and without a strong minded competitor spirit that pushes you to go the extra mile and produce the necessary efforts, you can just come in a dominate just because you are talented.
You can see and interpret that quote as you see but the point is Talent ALONE is not enough! You also need EFFORT (consistent), COMMITMENT (to perfect your craft), and sometimes also LUCK (Avoid injuries, fit with team, good coaching to harvest your skills), etc.
By the way, that quote is from Bill Belichick himself...
You can go tell him what you think about his quote.
I personally see in Simmons Flawed Talent (no Jumpers, no post moves) and Little Effort (maybe my personal view but effort wise Simmons didn't bring it as much as I would have expected).
Doesn't mean he can't turn it out and be a dominant force going forward.
But for now, until today, I dont see him as a dominant force and like the skills Jaylen Brown is bringing to the table for my team. Let's see in a couple of years who is the best overall player on both ends of the court...

Pretty much.

Just look at Lebron.  His combination of size/strength/athleticism is arguably unlike we've ever seen in this league.  Add to that his basketball IQ, his court vision, his body control and his natural basketball instincts - for a guy with that type of talent it would have been [dang] near impossible for him to become anything less then an All-Star.  If he didn't try AT ALL he'd probably still be a 20/5/5 guy.

You could say the same for Shaq or Wilt Chamberlain in their era.  This guys were so physically dominant against anybody they came up against that they could have cruised on a nightly basis and still dominated.

On the other hand if you look at a guy like Jimmy Butler or Paul Pierce - those guys aren't gifted with elite talent.  Both around 6'7" which is dead on average for a SF.  Neither had dominant athleticism and neither was exactly a natural born shooter.  On paper neither one of those guys should be anything more then a decent starter or a really good role player, yet both managed to be legitimate stars - and I guarantee it didn't come easy for either one of them.  Both guys would have had to work their butts off in order to dominate the way they have. 

I think I do get what he's trying to say with the quote, but I think he's said it wrong.

To me a player's floor and ceiling are both measures of potential - high BAD the player could potentially become (floor) versus high GOOD the player could potentially become (ceiling).  I think both limits are set by talent.

For example Lebron was never going to be a bench warmer with his level of talent.  He was never going to be a fringe starter.  He was never going to be even just a solid starter.  With the talent he has he could make zero effort and he'd probably still be an All-Star or at the very least a borderline All-Star.  Hence the floor is, indeed, determined by his talent.

However with Lebron's talent, he had the potential to become the greatest player ever to play the game.  That is, ultimately, his ceiling.  What has determined that ceiling?  Again, it's his talent.

What character determines is where (within that 'floor-to-ceiling' range) the player actually ends up reaching.

So perhaps a more accurate quote would be "talent determines the potential, character determines the reality".

Avery Bradley is a great example.  He's got some talent for sure, but he's certainly not supremely talented.  He's got a lot of limitations in his talent - lack of height, lack of offensive instincts (play-making), lack of hand/eye coordination (ball handling), etc.   This lack of talent is what has ultimately limited his ceiling to that of a good starter / fringe All-Star.  Bradley has some of the greatest individual character in the NBA in every way imaginable (motor, work ethic, selflessness, etc) and because of that he has already, at the age of 25, come extremely close to reaching that ceiling. 

But everybody knows that no matter how great Bradley's character is, he's not going to suddenly take a massive leap and develop into a top 5 player in the NBA 2-3 years from now. He's not going to find himself up there with the Lebron's, Durant's, Westbrook's (etc) among the NBA elite.   Why do we know that?  Because unfortunately for AB, he quite simply doesn't have the talent.   

All the character in the world doesn't RAISE your ceiling as a player - it merely increases the probability of you one day reach it.  No amount of work will make AB grow into a 6'8" / 250 pound freak.  No amount of work will allow AB to dribble the ball like Kyrie, or see the floor like Rondo.   It's just not in him. 

Likewise not even his utter disregard for his body and complete lack of discipline were able to stop Jared Sullinger from being a fringe starter at the NBA level - he's just too darn talented to ever fall below that point.   

Lol! So I guess we also need to define Talent then... :-)
I feel you are mixing up Talent and Physical traits.
To me Talent is more about the skills (shooting, court vision, rebounding flair, etc) regardless of your physics.
We have seen tall athletic players barely making an NBA team. Just because you are tall and muscular doesn't mean you can ball...
A better illustration of the quote to me would be "your skills set your floor and your grit sets your ceiling" or something like that...

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #213 on: August 25, 2016, 06:20:36 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Just because you are tall and muscular doesn't mean you can ball...

But you can take up space and push people, set mean picks around that is worth something on the court.  It is not what it used to be worth, the NBA has cut down on the rough play.   Just ask Marc Iavoroni who played six years in the nba being a hatchet man.

Re: anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons
« Reply #214 on: August 25, 2016, 07:13:21 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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"Talent sets the floor, character sets the ceiling".

Enough said let's bring this thread back in a year or two...

Character sets the ceiling?  The following guys may disagree:

- Lebron James is the best player in the NBA arguably, and he has horrendous character. 
- Dwight Howard was the best center in the NBA for years, and again, horrible character. 
- Draymond Green is a top 5 PF in the NBA and yet again - shocking character.
- Ditto Rondo during his prime. 
- Cousins is the best center in the NBA now, poor character

They have been pretty good in their prime, and not exactly shining with character

As for the "talent sets the floor" argument, you may want to explain that one to Perry Jones!

Lol! Maybe we should start by agreeing on a definition of the word character...
To contest that quote is to imply that just with Talent and without a strong minded competitor spirit that pushes you to go the extra mile and produce the necessary efforts, you can just come in a dominate just because you are talented.
You can see and interpret that quote as you see but the point is Talent ALONE is not enough! You also need EFFORT (consistent), COMMITMENT (to perfect your craft), and sometimes also LUCK (Avoid injuries, fit with team, good coaching to harvest your skills), etc.
By the way, that quote is from Bill Belichick himself...
You can go tell him what you think about his quote.
I personally see in Simmons Flawed Talent (no Jumpers, no post moves) and Little Effort (maybe my personal view but effort wise Simmons didn't bring it as much as I would have expected).
Doesn't mean he can't turn it out and be a dominant force going forward.
But for now, until today, I dont see him as a dominant force and like the skills Jaylen Brown is bringing to the table for my team. Let's see in a couple of years who is the best overall player on both ends of the court...

Pretty much.

Just look at Lebron.  His combination of size/strength/athleticism is arguably unlike we've ever seen in this league.  Add to that his basketball IQ, his court vision, his body control and his natural basketball instincts - for a guy with that type of talent it would have been [dang] near impossible for him to become anything less then an All-Star.  If he didn't try AT ALL he'd probably still be a 20/5/5 guy.

You could say the same for Shaq or Wilt Chamberlain in their era.  This guys were so physically dominant against anybody they came up against that they could have cruised on a nightly basis and still dominated.

On the other hand if you look at a guy like Jimmy Butler or Paul Pierce - those guys aren't gifted with elite talent.  Both around 6'7" which is dead on average for a SF.  Neither had dominant athleticism and neither was exactly a natural born shooter.  On paper neither one of those guys should be anything more then a decent starter or a really good role player, yet both managed to be legitimate stars - and I guarantee it didn't come easy for either one of them.  Both guys would have had to work their butts off in order to dominate the way they have. 

I think I do get what he's trying to say with the quote, but I think he's said it wrong.

To me a player's floor and ceiling are both measures of potential - high BAD the player could potentially become (floor) versus high GOOD the player could potentially become (ceiling).  I think both limits are set by talent.

For example Lebron was never going to be a bench warmer with his level of talent.  He was never going to be a fringe starter.  He was never going to be even just a solid starter.  With the talent he has he could make zero effort and he'd probably still be an All-Star or at the very least a borderline All-Star.  Hence the floor is, indeed, determined by his talent.

However with Lebron's talent, he had the potential to become the greatest player ever to play the game.  That is, ultimately, his ceiling.  What has determined that ceiling?  Again, it's his talent.

What character determines is where (within that 'floor-to-ceiling' range) the player actually ends up reaching.

So perhaps a more accurate quote would be "talent determines the potential, character determines the reality".

Avery Bradley is a great example.  He's got some talent for sure, but he's certainly not supremely talented.  He's got a lot of limitations in his talent - lack of height, lack of offensive instincts (play-making), lack of hand/eye coordination (ball handling), etc.   This lack of talent is what has ultimately limited his ceiling to that of a good starter / fringe All-Star.  Bradley has some of the greatest individual character in the NBA in every way imaginable (motor, work ethic, selflessness, etc) and because of that he has already, at the age of 25, come extremely close to reaching that ceiling. 

But everybody knows that no matter how great Bradley's character is, he's not going to suddenly take a massive leap and develop into a top 5 player in the NBA 2-3 years from now. He's not going to find himself up there with the Lebron's, Durant's, Westbrook's (etc) among the NBA elite.   Why do we know that?  Because unfortunately for AB, he quite simply doesn't have the talent.   

All the character in the world doesn't RAISE your ceiling as a player - it merely increases the probability of you one day reach it.  No amount of work will make AB grow into a 6'8" / 250 pound freak.  No amount of work will allow AB to dribble the ball like Kyrie, or see the floor like Rondo.   It's just not in him. 

Likewise not even his utter disregard for his body and complete lack of discipline were able to stop Jared Sullinger from being a fringe starter at the NBA level - he's just too darn talented to ever fall below that point.   



 Great post Crimson Tp.