Author Topic: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks  (Read 2238 times)

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2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« on: July 29, 2016, 12:50:21 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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How do the Celts stack up against these teams from last season?

Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2016, 01:10:15 PM »

Offline ChillyWilly

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This team, as is, feels very similar to those 2 teams talent wise. I know some will moan that's not good enough and they would be correct this team as constituted is not good enough to win it all.

However only 1 team wins it all in a given year and we don't have any chance at the 3 guys who would push us to that point. Curry, KD or Lebron.

I'm happy to be watching competitive Celtics basketball again. Last 2 seasons there was no pressure we were still rebuilding now I personally expect out of first round and very strong showing in round 2 at least. Conference finals doesn't seem far fetched, actually sounds like a realistic goal in year 4 of Stevens.

2017-2018 will be when I'll expect this to be a team that would scare other finals teams. If the Celtics are not than I'll be joining the crowd of hey "fireworks" time.
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Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2016, 01:22:03 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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This team, as is, feels very similar to those 2 teams talent wise. I know some will moan that's not good enough and they would be correct this team as constituted is not good enough to win it all.

However only 1 team wins it all in a given year and we don't have any chance at the 3 guys who would push us to that point. Curry, KD or Lebron.

I'm happy to be watching competitive Celtics basketball again. Last 2 seasons there was no pressure we were still rebuilding now I personally expect out of first round and very strong showing in round 2 at least. Conference finals doesn't seem far fetched, actually sounds like a realistic goal in year 4 of Stevens.

2017-2018 will be when I'll expect this to be a team that would scare other finals teams. If the Celtics are not than I'll be joining the crowd of hey "fireworks" time.

Some good points. Depending how this team performs (especially by the trade deadline) I think you could expect some early fireworks

Celtics should be in front of the line to grab a marquee player (if such player will be traded) by the trade deadline. In parallel there will be an eye on how poorly the nets perform (if Lopez is traded/or another year full of injuries, Danny seriously hit jackpot).  Another eye on how the high  end 2017 prospects like Jackson/Giles perform.

Maybe these prospects are cant miss and unless you can get a super super nba player in return you dont trade the 2017 1st

Kind of went off topic here.

Going back on track , i agree we are comparable to these teams. Still cant beat Lebron and the Cavs.

Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2016, 01:30:33 PM »

Offline Timdawgg

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This team, as is, feels very similar to those 2 teams talent wise. I know some will moan that's not good enough and they would be correct this team as constituted is not good enough to win it all.

However only 1 team wins it all in a given year and we don't have any chance at the 3 guys who would push us to that point. Curry, KD or Lebron.

I'm happy to be watching competitive Celtics basketball again. Last 2 seasons there was no pressure we were still rebuilding now I personally expect out of first round and very strong showing in round 2 at least. Conference finals doesn't seem far fetched, actually sounds like a realistic goal in year 4 of Stevens.

2017-2018 will be when I'll expect this to be a team that would scare other finals teams. If the Celtics are not than I'll be joining the crowd of hey "fireworks" time.

I am right there with you.  Kind of amazing work for both Ainge and Stevens to get us back in shape so quick. 

It's weird but talent wise we seem right on par with Toronto and Atlanta of last year but this team is different. They have this spark/energy that makes me believe they would have been better than both of those teams. You have all that heart and hustle with now more talent, and more experience and I think they will be better than those 2 from last year but still not as good as the Cavs.
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Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2016, 01:54:17 PM »

Offline snively

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I'd say we're on par with the Hawks - they had the scoring differential of a 51 win team, which is about where I'd peg us.

Very similar strengths and weaknesses. Both teams feature highly mobile team defenses that can keep guards out of the paint, generate turnovers and contest 3s. Both offenses geared around a dynamic penetrating guard playing with high-quality shot finishers and shooting bigs.

Both teams very weak on the glass and vulnerable to physical big men.

Both teams very short on secondary ball-handling particularly at the wings - leads to major offensive issues when teams take away the primary point of attack and force the wings to create/initiate.

The Celtics have a stronger defensive group on the perimeter (though they lack anyone as versatile as Millsap in the paint). More significantly, Boston has the advantage of being able to funnel more of its offense through a single efficient point with Isaiah who not only scores and assists at a high volume but rarely turns it over. Atlanta's committee-based approach produces a lot more turnovers and doesn't hide limited ball-handlers as well as Boston has done with AB and Crowder.

But by the same token Atlanta was more balanced offensively. They had a strong second option in Millsap that we won't (Horford's much more equpped to playing the Bosh in Miami style 3rd wheel and always has been). They also had a more potent, if erratic, 6th man in Schroder that we won't - Smart plays more like Sefalosha than a true 6th man, and Rozier and Brown aren't ready for primetime. Finally they had a bit better shooting.

The comparison with Toronto is tougher because the styles are so different. An iso-heavy offense with more firepower and a bigger but slower and more limited frontcourt. I'd put us just slightly below last year's Raps. The 2 high-volume playmakers in the backcourt makes them tougher to stop and while their size handicaps their defense, the offensive edge still puts them over us.
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Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2016, 02:14:58 PM »

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I would say that the difference between us and those teams is that we have the opportunity to have a lot better depth and role players than they did based on growth from our younger players. Perhaps the Raptor would have been the same if Demare Carroll had not been banged up all season.
However, if you look at some of the guys that played serious minutes for the Raptors last year like Scola, Ross, James Johnson and Patterson. Perhaps I am undervaluing Patterson because he is hard to judge. However, it seems like our core bench players this year will be Smart, Olynik, Brown and Rozier. All of those guys have the chance to elevate their games to having more upside and being better players than any of the guys off Toronto's bench. Smart is probably better than those guys. 

Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2016, 02:26:05 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think the addition of Horford puts the Celts in the same tier as those teams, whereas previously they were a clear step below, at least for the purposes of playoff ball.


The real question here is, do the Celts match up any better with Cleveland than those two teams did.  In other words, will the Celts be as easy for the Cavs to steamroll as the Raps and Hawks were?
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Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2016, 02:50:58 PM »

Online celticsclay

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I think the addition of Horford puts the Celts in the same tier as those teams, whereas previously they were a clear step below, at least for the purposes of playoff ball.


The real question here is, do the Celts match up any better with Cleveland than those two teams did.  In other words, will the Celts be as easy for the Cavs to steamroll as the Raps and Hawks were?

I think we clearly have better wing and guard defenders than either of those teams. Crowder, Bradley and Smart are much better defenders than lowry (who is solid) and a gimpy Carrol and derozen. Korver, Teague and Bazemore isn't really even in the same league.

I would also add, I wouldn't say a 6 game series where the raptors were missing their starting center and had Carroll as a shell of himself was exactly a steamroll was it?

Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2016, 03:13:23 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think the addition of Horford puts the Celts in the same tier as those teams, whereas previously they were a clear step below, at least for the purposes of playoff ball.


The real question here is, do the Celts match up any better with Cleveland than those two teams did.  In other words, will the Celts be as easy for the Cavs to steamroll as the Raps and Hawks were?

I think we clearly have better wing and guard defenders than either of those teams. Crowder, Bradley and Smart are much better defenders than lowry (who is solid) and a gimpy Carrol and derozen. Korver, Teague and Bazemore isn't really even in the same league.

I would also add, I wouldn't say a 6 game series where the raptors were missing their starting center and had Carroll as a shell of himself was exactly a steamroll was it?

I think the Raps series was a steamroll, yes.  The Raps won a couple of games, and that's not nothing.

That said, the Cavs were never, at any point, scared of the Raptors.  That was obvious to me, and various observers commenting on the series indicated that as well.

The Raps gave the Cavs a better fight than the Hawks, to be sure, but I don't think of it as a close series.  I don't think anybody on either side ever really genuinely believed the Raps had a chance.


I agree with you that the Celts have a deeper cadre of aggressive wing defenders to help manage Irving and James. 

With that said, the Celts, like the Raps and Hawks, lack any really imposing wing defenders with above average size.  I think they have a similar weakness against the "power wing" type players as a result, James being the foremost example of that kind of player.
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Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2016, 03:55:31 PM »

Online celticsclay

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I think the addition of Horford puts the Celts in the same tier as those teams, whereas previously they were a clear step below, at least for the purposes of playoff ball.


The real question here is, do the Celts match up any better with Cleveland than those two teams did.  In other words, will the Celts be as easy for the Cavs to steamroll as the Raps and Hawks were?

I think we clearly have better wing and guard defenders than either of those teams. Crowder, Bradley and Smart are much better defenders than lowry (who is solid) and a gimpy Carrol and derozen. Korver, Teague and Bazemore isn't really even in the same league.

I would also add, I wouldn't say a 6 game series where the raptors were missing their starting center and had Carroll as a shell of himself was exactly a steamroll was it?

I think the Raps series was a steamroll, yes.  The Raps won a couple of games, and that's not nothing.

That said, the Cavs were never, at any point, scared of the Raptors.  That was obvious to me, and various observers commenting on the series indicated that as well.

The Raps gave the Cavs a better fight than the Hawks, to be sure, but I don't think of it as a close series.  I don't think anybody on either side ever really genuinely believed the Raps had a chance.


I agree with you that the Celts have a deeper cadre of aggressive wing defenders to help manage Irving and James. 

With that said, the Celts, like the Raps and Hawks, lack any really imposing wing defenders with above average size.  I think they have a similar weakness against the "power wing" type players as a result, James being the foremost example of that kind of player.

So you are completely dismissing the fact that the Raptors were missing their 3rd best player and one of the only areas they had a clear advantage over the Cavs? (Thompson could not stop Valanciunas  from scoring). Do you also realize that before he got hurt in the playoffs Valuncias was coming off 4 straight double doubles while averaging almost 14 rebounds a game? I think it is pretty lazy basketball analysis to not acknowledge how good the raptors were last year and how much closer that 6 game series could have been with Carroll healthy and Valanciunas playing. Heck we are still talking about how we would have won a healthy title with Perk 6 years later and Valanciunas is a better player than him. 

Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2016, 04:08:49 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I'd say we're on par with the Hawks - they had the scoring differential of a 51 win team, which is about where I'd peg us.

Very similar strengths and weaknesses. Both teams feature highly mobile team defenses that can keep guards out of the paint, generate turnovers and contest 3s. Both offenses geared around a dynamic penetrating guard playing with high-quality shot finishers and shooting bigs.

Both teams very weak on the glass and vulnerable to physical big men.

Both teams very short on secondary ball-handling particularly at the wings - leads to major offensive issues when teams take away the primary point of attack and force the wings to create/initiate.

The Celtics have a stronger defensive group on the perimeter (though they lack anyone as versatile as Millsap in the paint). More significantly, Boston has the advantage of being able to funnel more of its offense through a single efficient point with Isaiah who not only scores and assists at a high volume but rarely turns it over. Atlanta's committee-based approach produces a lot more turnovers and doesn't hide limited ball-handlers as well as Boston has done with AB and Crowder.

But by the same token Atlanta was more balanced offensively. They had a strong second option in Millsap that we won't (Horford's much more equpped to playing the Bosh in Miami style 3rd wheel and always has been). They also had a more potent, if erratic, 6th man in Schroder that we won't - Smart plays more like Sefalosha than a true 6th man, and Rozier and Brown aren't ready for primetime. Finally they had a bit better shooting.

The comparison with Toronto is tougher because the styles are so different. An iso-heavy offense with more firepower and a bigger but slower and more limited frontcourt. I'd put us just slightly below last year's Raps. The 2 high-volume playmakers in the backcourt makes them tougher to stop and while their size handicaps their defense, the offensive edge still puts them over us.
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Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2016, 04:16:03 PM »

Offline Jon

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Short term, I think the teams are all about on the same level. I think the big difference is the C's upward trajectory. They still have young guys like Smart and Brown who could take strides this year and next. Then there's the Brooklyn picks this year and next. And to top it all off, we have Brad Stevens and a ton of cap space next year.

So yes, it's fair to say we're good, but not good enough next year. But it's big time alarmist to say that this is as good as it gets, which is/was somewhat the case with Toronto/Atlanta.

Re: 2016-2017 Celtics vs 2015-2016 Raptors/Hawks
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2016, 06:12:35 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I think the 2015-2016 Celtics, Hawks, and Raptors were all about on the same level, though you could certainly argue that those two were just a bit better overall than us.

However, I think the addition of Horford puts us CLEARLY as a better team than both of them and firmly in the number two spot in the East. Both of those teams had much more talent than us this past year, but our chemistry, fit, and playing style was so good together that it raised our collective game to be more than just the sum of the individual parts. By adding another excellent-fitting piece in Horford, we definitely are the better team than either of them. And I definitely think that we're the best matchup against Cleveland. We know the Cavs are the Hawks kryptonite, losing something like 12 straight games to them, and we know the Raptors simply don't have the team to compete with them. Cleveland is clearly better, but I definitely think we'd make a close series of it with the addition of Horford.

Let's also not forget that pretty much that same Hawks team won 60 games the year before.