Since 1980 (36 years) Which Celtics Bigs Were "Better" Then Horford?

[PhoSita]

I really don't like WinShares as a metric because team success plays such a great part in calculating them.

I haven't found this to be as true with big men as with other positions, though.

As I noted, one of the top seasons after the Bird / McHale / Parish / Garnett / Maxwell group is Raef Lafrentz, and another is Al Jefferson.


If you want to go by PER, the top 30 is dominated by Bird / McHale / Parish / Garnett, with the next best season belonging to Big Al.

If you go by points per game, now Antoine shows up, but his scoring efficiency ... uh ... left something to be desired.  There's one Dino season in there, too, but I'm not sure how much defense he was really playing.

[Moranis]

I really don't like WinShares as a metric because team success plays such a great part in calculating them.

I haven't found this to be as true with big men as with other positions, though.

As I noted, one of the top seasons after the Bird / McHale / Parish / Garnett / Maxwell group is Raef Lafrentz, and another is Al Jefferson.


If you want to go by PER, the top 30 is dominated by Bird / McHale / Parish / Garnett, with the next best season belonging to Big Al.

If you go by points per game, now Antoine shows up, but his scoring efficiency ... uh ... left something to be desired.  There's one Dino season in there, too, but I'm not sure how much defense he was really playing.

I wasn't talking about it in relation to Toine just in general. 

[boscel33]

I would have him around Parish.  KG is the best hands down.  Best PF of all time IMO.

Did you see employee #32 play?  Best PF of all time IMO.

[cornbread1981]

Mchale over Garnett any day mchale was just incredible on defense with those arms and you know about the offense. Parish doesnt get enough attention he sacrificed shots for other guys and did the dirty work he was really backbone of the 80's celtics. Most importantly however he clobbered laimbeer good job chief

[PhoSita]

I really don't like WinShares as a metric because team success plays such a great part in calculating them.

I haven't found this to be as true with big men as with other positions, though.

As I noted, one of the top seasons after the Bird / McHale / Parish / Garnett / Maxwell group is Raef Lafrentz, and another is Al Jefferson.


If you want to go by PER, the top 30 is dominated by Bird / McHale / Parish / Garnett, with the next best season belonging to Big Al.

If you go by points per game, now Antoine shows up, but his scoring efficiency ... uh ... left something to be desired.  There's one Dino season in there, too, but I'm not sure how much defense he was really playing.

I wasn't talking about it in relation to Toine just in general.

Generally speaking, I find that Win Shares does a pretty good job of jiving with my own impressions of relative player worth, with the caveat that, like many stats, it values traditional big men significantly higher than other types of players. 

At the very least, I've found it to be an effective tool for comparing players in similar roles, and also for assessing the overall strength and depth of a roster.

[Fafnir]

I really don't like WinShares as a metric because team success plays such a great part in calculating them.

Well VORP rewards you for playing on a crappy shooting team, playing a ton of minutes, and all sorts of crappy things like that. So  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Antoine was fun, but he wasn't very good. He was basically a better version of Evan Turner with more prestige. Dragged your offense down quite a bit, but was versatile enough that he ate minutes and was a useful rotation player.

The idea that he's up there with Horford just doesn't hold up unless you value the 25 inefficient shots he took a game a lot more than you should

[jambr380]

Sorry, but I don't buy the negative rhetoric on Antoine as I was immersed in Celtic culture during his entire tenure here. It's fun now discuss analytics as to why he sucked, but Antoine, not Pierce was the engine behind those successful Celtics teams.

If Horford has anywhere near the effect on this current team as Antoine did back then, we will be very very happy. Instead I think we are going to see the player we always wanted Sullinger to be, which is still quite good. We had the prime years of Antoine, we are getting the not-quite-so prime years of Horford.

They both offer a lot of intangibles - it's just that one actually put up all-star level numbers and was the emotional leader of an otherwise not very talented team.

[chilidawg]

Antoine was one of the two top players on an ECF team.  He must have been doing something productive.

[Fafnir]

Funny jambr380 the thing I remember about those C's teams is that only when Antoine stepped back and let Pierce become the leader and focal point did things really come together. Just different perspectives on the same events.

If you look at production and number Pierce was absolutely the engine behind the C's. He kept the offense afloat almost solo. Antoine's biggest contribution was opening up the floor for Pierce's attacks. I don't think that made up for his overall inefficiency but there is a case to be made if you wanted to there.

Antoine was 8th on the team in WS/48. He certainly was top 2 in role and scoring but I'm skeptical about his overall contributions. The more I think about the Turner comparisons the more I think they are apt.

[jambr380]

Funny jambr380 the thing I remember about those C's teams is that only when Antoine stepped back and let Pierce become the leader and focal point did things really come together. Just different perspectives on the same events.

If you look at production and number Pierce was absolutely the engine behind the C's. He kept the offense afloat almost solo. Antoine's biggest contribution was opening up the floor for Pierce's attacks. I don't think that made up for his overall inefficiency but there is a case to be made if you wanted to there.

Antoine was 8th on the team in WS/48. He certainly was top 2 in role and scoring but I'm skeptical about his overall contributions. The more I think about the Turner comparisons the more I think they are apt.

Pierce was the more talented player, but he was immature. Antoine's statistical contributions to those Cs teams were important, but his ability to lead emotionally was why those less than impressive teams were able to accomplish as much as they did.

Everybody here is (rightfully) excited about a team that just lost two years in a row in the first round of the playoffs. I get that KG, Ray, and Pierce made it cool to hate on the early 2000s teams, but if we somehow make the ECF next year, all heck will break loose. I get that Antoine causes some divisiveness around here, but he was good, and likely better than we can hope Horford will be.

[Donoghus]

Funny jambr380 the thing I remember about those C's teams is that only when Antoine stepped back and let Pierce become the leader and focal point did things really come together. Just different perspectives on the same events.

If you look at production and number Pierce was absolutely the engine behind the C's. He kept the offense afloat almost solo. Antoine's biggest contribution was opening up the floor for Pierce's attacks. I don't think that made up for his overall inefficiency but there is a case to be made if you wanted to there.

Antoine was 8th on the team in WS/48. He certainly was top 2 in role and scoring but I'm skeptical about his overall contributions. The more I think about the Turner comparisons the more I think they are apt.

Pierce was the more talented player, but he was immature. Antoine's statistical contributions to those Cs teams were important, but his ability to lead emotionally was why those less than impressive teams were able to accomplish as much as they did.

Everybody here is (rightfully) excited about a team that just lost two years in a row in the first round of the playoffs. I get that KG, Ray, and Pierce made it cool to hate on the early 2000s teams, but if we somehow make the ECF next year, all heck will break loose. I get that Antoine causes some divisiveness around here, but he was good, and likely better than we can hope Horford will be.

I don't see those teams getting much hatred on these boards.  I think most people have extremely found memories of those teams but also fully realize that there were flaws to those teams and they had a ceiling.   

[Celtics4ever]

Antoine was one of the two top players on an ECF team.  He must have been doing something productive.

I would take prime Al Horford over prime Antoine any day of the week.

[CelticPride2016]

Funny jambr380 the thing I remember about those C's teams is that only when Antoine stepped back and let Pierce become the leader and focal point did things really come together. Just different perspectives on the same events.

Maybe what if's are useless because they are mere thought experiments. But what if we could apply science fiction and swap the order Pierce and Walker entered the league? How would such a butterfly effect have influenced the trajectory of their games? What if as someone else wrote about 'Toine being ahead of the league's time, he'd been drafted in this time zone with Brad Stevens as his coach?

It's interesting to see Dino Radja pop up in a couple of threads. He had bad timing joining the NBA similar to Antoine. Dino's legacy seems to grow every year. He was pretty good with a great attitude according to his recent comments.

I respect that Horford signed with the Celtics. Durant chickened out and now Horford has the opportunity to make a historic name for himself as a team player on a great team.

[Fafnir]

I respect that Horford signed with the Celtics. Durant chickened out and now Horford has the opportunity to make a historic name for himself as a team player on a great team.

I think Durant has the exact same opportunity himself.

[2short]

Given Horford's age and likely production, I'd easily put Toine ahead of him. 

Dino Radja had a very solid 4 year stretch as well.  I don't think Horford will eclipse Dino's 19.7/9.8 season.  Heck Horford might not even eclipse Radja's 17.2/8.7 season. 

I think Radja is very underrated here ......

Dino was one of the worst pick and roll defending bigs I can remember with the Celtics (who played)