Since 1980 (36 years) Which Celtics Bigs Were "Better" Then Horford?

[Donoghus]

What exactly do people consider as Walker's peak?  The '02 Walker who was living on the outside & chucking up everything or the earlier Walker who was a more rounded player?

The advanced metrics show Walker's best seasons as 00/01 and 01/02, which were his 5th and 6th years in the league.  Those were generally his highest VORP, BPM, WS, etc. seasons.

He wasn't good those years though, certainly not close to Horford.

TS% of  average of .500 with that many shots? Yuck. 99 ORTG woooo 

Weak rebounding from a SF/PF too.

He was pretty undisciplined at that point & Obie seemed more than content with 'Toine playing on the outside even though (when he wanted to be), he could be pretty devastating down low between his passing, scoring, and (when he felt like it) rebounding.

[Fafnir]

Fun Fact. Antoine's 00-01 season rates higher than any year of PPs except his 01-02 season.

This includes a season ( 07-08) when his winscore was 6 higher than Antoines that year and Pierce shot .599 TS% with a 115 ORTG. VORP is garbage.

[Jon]

I don't really consider C.Maxwell or Antoine as bigs. More as forwards.

More specifically as combo forwards in the PF/SF mold.

This is true. If you are going to count Cedric and Antoine, you really have to count Larry Legend too.

[chilidawg]

To me only Garnett and Mchale are clear cut ahead of Horford.  Parrish might be ahead based on longevity, hard to compare when Horford hasn't even played for the Celtics yet.  I'd rate their overall play to date as similar.  Bird, Maxwell, Walker I'd put in as more the combo forward type rather than a true 4/5 big.

[loco_91]

I think Horford is the same caliber player as Parish; wouldn't really say either of them is "better."

I feel the same. If Horford leads the Cs to the Finals, that would push him past Parish in my book.

Then '07-08 KG was on McHale's level (well above Horford) but '08-'13 KG was probably closer to the Horford/Parish tier.

I view KG a notch higher than McHale. IMO KG is a 1 to McHale being a 2. (Bird would be the 1 on those 80s Cs team)

McHale was a 7 time All Star, 6 time 1st/2nd All D, won 2 6th Man awards, and 1 All NBA first team.

KG was a 15 time All Star, DOPY in 08, league MVP with the Wolves, 12 time All D, and a 4 time All NBA first team. He was a legit franchise player.

Mk

I agree looking at whole careers. By '07-08, KG was already a bit past his prime. But yeah, in '02-05 KG had some of the most dominant seasons by anybody ever. McHale himself was pretty amazing, and even if it weren't for Bird he definitely would have carried the franchise to some significant postseason success.

[Moranis]

What exactly do people consider as Walker's peak?  The '02 Walker who was living on the outside & chucking up everything or the earlier Walker who was a more rounded player?

The advanced metrics show Walker's best seasons as 00/01 and 01/02, which were his 5th and 6th years in the league.  Those were generally his highest VORP, BPM, WS, etc. seasons.

He wasn't good those years though, certainly not close to Horford.

TS% of  average of .500 with that many shots? Yuck. 99 ORTG woooo 

Weak rebounding from a SF/PF too.

He was pretty undisciplined at that point & Obie seemed more than content with 'Toine playing on the outside even though (when he wanted to be), he could be pretty devastating down low between his passing, scoring, and (when he felt like it) rebounding.

He had a lot of shots, but his 3PT% wasn't terrible at 36.7 and 34.4 those two years, which back then was actually pretty good for a big man.  In fact, he was actually better from 3 than he was from 3' to 10', 10' to 16', and 16' to three.  He was also assisted on well over 90% of three point makes so he wasn't just running and gunning.  We often mis-remember Toine around here.  He was a lot better outside shooter and it came from a lot more in hte offense than you would think reading this board.  He was also an average defender, not the worst defender ever which many make him out to be. 

In 2000/01, Toine shot 36.7% from three averaged 23.4 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, and 1.7 spg.  He played 42 minutes a night in 81 games.  The entire offense ran through him.  He had a DRTG of 102, which tied him with Pierce for basically 3rd on the team (behind Battie and Blount of the regular rotation level players).  The next year his overall numbers faded a bit, but Boston was a 49 win team that made the ECF and Toine was actually better in the postseason that he was in the regular season. 

Toine was far from a perfect player, but he was a lot better than he is remembered as being on here, and it is a real shame. 

[BitterJim]

I think Horford is the same caliber player as Parish; wouldn't really say either of them is "better."

I feel the same. If Horford leads the Cs to the Finals, that would push him past Parish in my book.

Then '07-08 KG was on McHale's level (well above Horford) but '08-'13 KG was probably closer to the Horford/Parish tier.

I view KG a notch higher than McHale. IMO KG is a 1 to McHale being a 2. (Bird would be the 1 on those 80s Cs team)

McHale was a 7 time All Star, 6 time 1st/2nd All D, won 2 6th Man awards, and 1 All NBA first team.

KG was a 15 time All Star, DOPY in 08, league MVP with the Wolves, 12 time All D, and a 4 time All NBA first team. He was a legit franchise player.

Mk

You can't look at their whole careers to make the decision, though, just their career on the Cs.  If you look at whole career, then Shaq was the best Celtics big since 1980 (but everyone would agree that he's not, since when he played here he was washed up)

[droopdog7]

I would have him around Parish.  KG is the best hands down.  Best PF of all time IMO.

Bird averaged over 10 rebounds a game and guarded PF's his entire career.  He's a big in my book.

[Donoghus]

What exactly do people consider as Walker's peak?  The '02 Walker who was living on the outside & chucking up everything or the earlier Walker who was a more rounded player?

The advanced metrics show Walker's best seasons as 00/01 and 01/02, which were his 5th and 6th years in the league.  Those were generally his highest VORP, BPM, WS, etc. seasons.

He wasn't good those years though, certainly not close to Horford.

TS% of  average of .500 with that many shots? Yuck. 99 ORTG woooo 

Weak rebounding from a SF/PF too.

He was pretty undisciplined at that point & Obie seemed more than content with 'Toine playing on the outside even though (when he wanted to be), he could be pretty devastating down low between his passing, scoring, and (when he felt like it) rebounding.

He had a lot of shots, but his 3PT% wasn't terrible at 36.7 and 34.4 those two years, which back then was actually pretty good for a big man.  In fact, he was actually better from 3 than he was from 3' to 10', 10' to 16', and 16' to three.  He was also assisted on well over 90% of three point makes so he wasn't just running and gunning.  We often mis-remember Toine around here.  He was a lot better outside shooter and it came from a lot more in hte offense than you would think reading this board.  He was also an average defender, not the worst defender ever which many make him out to be. 

In 2000/01, Toine shot 36.7% from three averaged 23.4 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, and 1.7 spg.  He played 42 minutes a night in 81 games.  The entire offense ran through him.  He had a DRTG of 102, which tied him with Pierce for basically 3rd on the team (behind Battie and Blount of the regular rotation level players).  The next year his overall numbers faded a bit, but Boston was a 49 win team that made the ECF and Toine was actually better in the postseason that he was in the regular season. 

Toine was far from a perfect player, but he was a lot better than he is remembered as being on here, and it is a real shame.

I think most people on here that are old enough (and it wasn't that long ago) have a pretty good bearing on how Walker was.  Certainly talented, played his butt off at times, & provided a lot of fun moments.  At the same time, he had the potential to be much more.   That sticks with people a lot more.  You could see the potential there and a combination of crap coaching and poor self discipline never let him get to that potential. 

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

1. Thomas Hamilton
2. Acie Earl
3. Brett Szabo
4. Dwayne Schintzius
5. Brandon Hunter



.... oh sorry I read the question wrong.     .... I agree with your list

No love for Zan Tabak, Bruno Sundov, and Travis Knight?

Or Greg Stiemsma?

[Moranis]

What exactly do people consider as Walker's peak?  The '02 Walker who was living on the outside & chucking up everything or the earlier Walker who was a more rounded player?

The advanced metrics show Walker's best seasons as 00/01 and 01/02, which were his 5th and 6th years in the league.  Those were generally his highest VORP, BPM, WS, etc. seasons.

He wasn't good those years though, certainly not close to Horford.

TS% of  average of .500 with that many shots? Yuck. 99 ORTG woooo 

Weak rebounding from a SF/PF too.

He was pretty undisciplined at that point & Obie seemed more than content with 'Toine playing on the outside even though (when he wanted to be), he could be pretty devastating down low between his passing, scoring, and (when he felt like it) rebounding.

He had a lot of shots, but his 3PT% wasn't terrible at 36.7 and 34.4 those two years, which back then was actually pretty good for a big man.  In fact, he was actually better from 3 than he was from 3' to 10', 10' to 16', and 16' to three.  He was also assisted on well over 90% of three point makes so he wasn't just running and gunning.  We often mis-remember Toine around here.  He was a lot better outside shooter and it came from a lot more in hte offense than you would think reading this board.  He was also an average defender, not the worst defender ever which many make him out to be. 

In 2000/01, Toine shot 36.7% from three averaged 23.4 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, and 1.7 spg.  He played 42 minutes a night in 81 games.  The entire offense ran through him.  He had a DRTG of 102, which tied him with Pierce for basically 3rd on the team (behind Battie and Blount of the regular rotation level players).  The next year his overall numbers faded a bit, but Boston was a 49 win team that made the ECF and Toine was actually better in the postseason that he was in the regular season. 

Toine was far from a perfect player, but he was a lot better than he is remembered as being on here, and it is a real shame.

I think most people on here that are old enough (and it wasn't that long ago) have a pretty good bearing on how Walker was.  Certainly talented, played his butt off at times, & provided a lot of fun moments.  At the same time, he had the potential to be much more.   That sticks with people a lot more.  You could see the potential there and a combination of crap coaching and poor self discipline never let him get to that potential.

Toine was definitely frustrating to watch at times and certainly failed to fully reach his potential, but I just feel this board misremembers his time here.  Toine wasn't an inefficient chucker that didn't play defense.  You can see in this thread alone that is what many people recall of him, and that just isn't accurate.  Toine certainly could have been so much more and probably even had HOF level talent.  He never got there, but he wasn't some crappy scrub either.  He was a very good player for the Celtics for 7 seasons before Ainge traded him away for much less than he was worth. 

[PhoSita]

For whatever it's worth, in the 3 point era, 19 of the top 20 single season Win Shares totals among Celtics players classified as C, F-C, or C-F belong to McHale and Parish, with the other one belonging to Raef Lafrentz (7.5 WS in 04/05).

The next highest WS season belongs to Al Jefferson in 2006-2007, when he garnered 6.6 WS at age 22.

The top WS season, by McHale, was 14.8 WS in 86-87.


If you include players classified as "F", the top of the list includes many seasons from Larry Bird (peaking at 15.8 WS in 85-86), with a single season of Cedric Maxwell (12.2 WS in 79-80) and a single season of Kevin Garnett (12.9 WS in 07-08).


Last year, Al Horford had 9.4 WS for the Hawks.  He's had at least 8.7 WS in 3 of the last 4 years, with the exception being 2013-2014 when he only played 29 games.

So it looks like the Celts can reasonably expect from Horford at least one season that will be the best they've gotten from a traditional big man since at least Kevin Garnett in 2010-2011 (9.0 WS), and the best season from a nominal center since Robert Parish in 1990-1991 (10.0 WS).

[Moranis]

I really don't like WinShares as a metric because team success plays such a great part in calculating them. 

[JBcat]

What exactly do people consider as Walker's peak?  The '02 Walker who was living on the outside & chucking up everything or the earlier Walker who was a more rounded player?

The advanced metrics show Walker's best seasons as 00/01 and 01/02, which were his 5th and 6th years in the league.  Those were generally his highest VORP, BPM, WS, etc. seasons.

He wasn't good those years though, certainly not close to Horford.

TS% of  average of .500 with that many shots? Yuck. 99 ORTG woooo 

Weak rebounding from a SF/PF too.

He was pretty undisciplined at that point & Obie seemed more than content with 'Toine playing on the outside even though (when he wanted to be), he could be pretty devastating down low between his passing, scoring, and (when he felt like it) rebounding.

He had a lot of shots, but his 3PT% wasn't terrible at 36.7 and 34.4 those two years, which back then was actually pretty good for a big man.  In fact, he was actually better from 3 than he was from 3' to 10', 10' to 16', and 16' to three.  He was also assisted on well over 90% of three point makes so he wasn't just running and gunning.  We often mis-remember Toine around here.  He was a lot better outside shooter and it came from a lot more in hte offense than you would think reading this board.  He was also an average defender, not the worst defender ever which many make him out to be. 

In 2000/01, Toine shot 36.7% from three averaged 23.4 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, and 1.7 spg.  He played 42 minutes a night in 81 games.  The entire offense ran through him.  He had a DRTG of 102, which tied him with Pierce for basically 3rd on the team (behind Battie and Blount of the regular rotation level players).  The next year his overall numbers faded a bit, but Boston was a 49 win team that made the ECF and Toine was actually better in the postseason that he was in the regular season. 

Toine was far from a perfect player, but he was a lot better than he is remembered as being on here, and it is a real shame.

I think most people on here that are old enough (and it wasn't that long ago) have a pretty good bearing on how Walker was.  Certainly talented, played his butt off at times, & provided a lot of fun moments.  At the same time, he had the potential to be much more.   That sticks with people a lot more.  You could see the potential there and a combination of crap coaching and poor self discipline never let him get to that potential.

Toine was definitely frustrating to watch at times and certainly failed to fully reach his potential, but I just feel this board misremembers his time here.  Toine wasn't an inefficient chucker that didn't play defense.  You can see in this thread alone that is what many people recall of him, and that just isn't accurate.  Toine certainly could have been so much more and probably even had HOF level talent.  He never got there, but he wasn't some crappy scrub either.  He was a very good player for the Celtics for 7 seasons before Ainge traded him away for much less than he was worth.

Tommy always wanted Toine to play under the hoop more.  He didn't have great lift so I think that was part of the problem he didn't as much.  He had great hands though and a very good rebounder.  He didn't seem to work on his body enough even though he did play hard.  He was asked to do so much for our team, and logged a ton of minutes.

[BigDogPitbull]

McHale
Parish
Garnett
Maxwell

Antoine and Radja were good but they had the numbers they had because they were usually on pretty bad teams.