Since 1980 (36 years) Which Celtics Bigs Were "Better" Then Horford?

[mkogav]

Given Horford's age and likely production, I'd easily put Toine ahead of him. 

Dino Radja had a very solid 4 year stretch as well.  I don't think Horford will eclipse Dino's 19.7/9.8 season.  Heck Horford might not even eclipse Radja's 17.2/8.7 season. 

I think Radja is very underrated here ......

Dino was a pretty good player, but he was only with the Celtics for 4 years -- and the team was horrible at that time. You're probably right though.

Dino is one of the forgotten Celtics. Those mid-late 90s teams are easily overlooked... obviously since I just did. This is rather shameful on my part considering I use to revel in watching Sherm, Dino, X, Dana, and company on those late night West Coast trips.

Dino did have a nice run with the Cs. He should be mentioned in the Honorable Mentions as good stats on a bad team.

Mk

[Snakehead]

If you easily put Antoine ahead of Horford, I guess you don't' care about defense or efficiency at all.  Zero question Horford is better.

[mkogav]

If you easily put Antoine ahead of Horford, I guess you don't' care about defense or efficiency at all.

Efficiency is the key. Antoine's volume shooting would not over well in today's adv stat front offices.

At 29 y/o, Antoine's play was deteriorating. He only had two years left in the league. At 29 y/o Horford just signed a massive 4 year deal with BOS. Let's hope his skills aren't on Antoine's lifecycle.

Mk

[Eja117]

You could maybe make the argument that bang for the buck Perkins was better

[Moranis]

If you easily put Antoine ahead of Horford, I guess you don't' care about defense or efficiency at all.

Toine had back to back seasons where he had a VORP of 5 and then 4.3.  Horford's career high is 4.4, which was a long time ago, though he is coming off his 2nd best at 4.1 last year.  Horford is on the back end of his prime and is only going to get worse.  Toine was a much better passer and a better steal generator.  Toine clearly shot the ball too much and was grossly inefficient in that regard, but I'd take Toine's Celtic's best over what I believe Horford's Celtic's best will be.  Horford at his peak was better than Toine, but we aren't getting Horford at his peak.

[Snakehead]

Horford at his peak was better than Toine, but we aren't getting Horford at his peak.

Personally I think Horford's decline is exaggerated, his numbers have more to do with his situation and IMO will go up this year in Boston as the front court focus vs playing next to the fantastic stat stuffer that is Millsap.


You bring up 'Toine's good VORP numbers, but there are some very ugly ones too and Horford's are consistently good.

To the eye test (still all important on defense IMO where stats are lacking), it's really not close as defenders.  As well as the fact that Horford is a legit big who can defend the paint where Toine was a tweener type and certainly wasn't locking anyone down on the wing.

[kraidstar]

If you easily put Antoine ahead of Horford, I guess you don't' care about defense or efficiency at all.

Toine had back to back seasons where he had a VORP of 5 and then 4.3.  Horford's career high is 4.4, which was a long time ago, though he is coming off his 2nd best at 4.1 last year.  Horford is on the back end of his prime and is only going to get worse.  Toine was a much better passer and a better steal generator.  Toine clearly shot the ball too much and was grossly inefficient in that regard, but I'd take Toine's Celtic's best over what I believe Horford's Celtic's best will be.  Horford at his peak was better than Toine, but we aren't getting Horford at his peak.

Walker career eFG%  .461 (.478 or worse every year except his first year with Miami)
Horford career eFG%  .543 (.525 or better every year except his rookie year)

Horford was also a much better defender.

Oh, and and Walker's season at 30 years old (horford's current age) was his last in the NBA. He was washed up while Horford is still very good.

[Moranis]

Horford at his peak was better than Toine, but we aren't getting Horford at his peak.

Personally I think Horford's decline is exaggerated, his numbers have more to do with his situation and IMO will go up this year in Boston as the front court focus vs playing next to the fantastic stat stuffer that is Millsap.


You bring up 'Toine's good VORP numbers, but there are some very ugly ones too and Horford's are consistently good.

To the eye test (still all important on defense IMO where stats are lacking), it's really not close as defenders.  As well as the fact that Horford is a legit big who can defend the paint where Toine was a tweener type.

Horford is definitely a more consistent player than Toine ever was, but Toine had a higher peak than Horford and Boston isn't even getting peak Horford.  So if you prefer the guy with the higher peak, Toine was better, if you want the guy that had more good seasons, then Horford is your guy, but no one really knows what Horford Boston is going to get.  He may be the same guy or he may fall off a cliff. 

[Snakehead]

Horford is definitely a more consistent player than Toine ever was, but Toine had a higher peak than Horford and Boston isn't even getting peak Horford.  So if you prefer the guy with the higher peak, Toine was better, if you want the guy that had more good seasons, then Horford is your guy, but no one really knows what Horford Boston is going to get.  He may be the same guy or he may fall off a cliff.

I don't mean to keep running into a wall if we disagree on this, but I don't think Toine at his peak was better.  He was not playing defense near the level Horford consistently has for years.  That's half the game.  I just don't think that's even a debate.  But if we disagree we disagree.

[Moranis]

Horford is definitely a more consistent player than Toine ever was, but Toine had a higher peak than Horford and Boston isn't even getting peak Horford.  So if you prefer the guy with the higher peak, Toine was better, if you want the guy that had more good seasons, then Horford is your guy, but no one really knows what Horford Boston is going to get.  He may be the same guy or he may fall off a cliff.

I don't mean to keep running into a wall if we disagree on this, but I don't think Toine at his peak was better.  He was not playing defense near the level Horford consistently has for years.  That's half the game.  I just don't think that's even a debate.  But if we disagree we disagree.

Walker was a better defender than you are giving him credit for.  Don't get me wrong, Walker wasn't a good defender and was far worse than Horford on that end, but his defensive short falls have been greatly exaggerated over time on this board.  Walker was an average overall defender and was a great steal generator (especially for his position). 

[Donoghus]

What exactly do people consider as Walker's peak?  The '02 Walker who was living on the outside & chucking up everything or the earlier Walker who was a more rounded player?

[Moranis]

What exactly do people consider as Walker's peak?  The '02 Walker who was living on the outside & chucking up everything or the earlier Walker who was a more rounded player?

The advanced metrics show Walker's best seasons as 00/01 and 01/02, which were his 5th and 6th years in the league.  Those were generally his highest VORP, BPM, WS, etc. seasons.

[Fafnir]

What exactly do people consider as Walker's peak?  The '02 Walker who was living on the outside & chucking up everything or the earlier Walker who was a more rounded player?

The advanced metrics show Walker's best seasons as 00/01 and 01/02, which were his 5th and 6th years in the league.  Those were generally his highest VORP, BPM, WS, etc. seasons.

He wasn't good those years though, certainly not close to Horford.

TS% of  average of .500 with that many shots? Yuck. 99 ORTG woooo 

Weak rebounding from a SF/PF too.

[Fafnir]

Oh man VORP is straight up trash, just looked into it straight up trash.

[celts55]

I LOVE WALTAAAH!