Author Topic: Demetrius got paid!  (Read 15593 times)

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Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2016, 07:47:30 PM »

Offline lefty12

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He might be traded, but more likely that Smart or Rozier would be.

Yes - they must like Jackson enough to tie him up as potential insurance if rozier or smart traded

Otherwise - why are you giving 15man on the roster - a 2nd rnd pick - guaranteed money for 3yrs?

its not like there won't be a 3rd string pg available for short money after pre-season

2+2 = 5 on this one

You're thinking too much on this one.  Would you rather your second-round pick be signed to one year or four, especially when the last three years are only a little above the minimum (and might even wind up at or below the minimum in a new CBA)?  They like him, and he's probably the 6th or 7th guard on a roster of 15 players for the next couple years.  Trades happen, injuries happen, and in two years, free agency happens for three players ahead of him.

your missing the point - 2nd round picks are NOT typically signed to contracts like this

UNLESS celts are sure they have plans for him

ESPECIALLY at his position given current depth

do you really think they signed him for 3yrs to play in Maine?

You've missed the contracts 2nd-rounders have signed this season and last, for starters.
He's making barely 1% of the salary cap.  That seems like a player who very well will be in Maine for a year.

The point is, at the 13th-15th roster spots with prospects, if you like the player, you keep him under control for as long as possible.  It doesn't matter who's ahead of him for a year.

I'm sure the Celtics could have paid him less for a shorter deal and made him a free agent after two years, but what's the point of letting some team come in and give a Tyler Johnson offer?  Pay the little bit extra (he'll be making less than $400k over the minimum in years 3 and 4, and that's assuming the minimum salary doesn't increase with a new CBA like it probably will) and keep a player you like for longer.

If the Celtics are right, they've got a bargain.  If they're wrong, the cost is negligible.

haven't missed anything -
how about using a better example than tyler Johnson to make point (justifying an unnecessary contract)

don't know anyone else putting Johnson & Jackson in the same sentence - especially given that roster depth is completely different

UNLESS there is another move coming ( as I and others have suggested)


Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2016, 08:29:20 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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He might be traded, but more likely that Smart or Rozier would be.

Yes - they must like Jackson enough to tie him up as potential insurance if rozier or smart traded

Otherwise - why are you giving 15man on the roster - a 2nd rnd pick - guaranteed money for 3yrs?

its not like there won't be a 3rd string pg available for short money after pre-season

2+2 = 5 on this one

You're thinking too much on this one.  Would you rather your second-round pick be signed to one year or four, especially when the last three years are only a little above the minimum (and might even wind up at or below the minimum in a new CBA)?  They like him, and he's probably the 6th or 7th guard on a roster of 15 players for the next couple years.  Trades happen, injuries happen, and in two years, free agency happens for three players ahead of him.

your missing the point - 2nd round picks are NOT typically signed to contracts like this

UNLESS celts are sure they have plans for him

ESPECIALLY at his position given current depth

do you really think they signed him for 3yrs to play in Maine?

You've missed the contracts 2nd-rounders have signed this season and last, for starters.
He's making barely 1% of the salary cap.  That seems like a player who very well will be in Maine for a year.

The point is, at the 13th-15th roster spots with prospects, if you like the player, you keep him under control for as long as possible.  It doesn't matter who's ahead of him for a year.

I'm sure the Celtics could have paid him less for a shorter deal and made him a free agent after two years, but what's the point of letting some team come in and give a Tyler Johnson offer?  Pay the little bit extra (he'll be making less than $400k over the minimum in years 3 and 4, and that's assuming the minimum salary doesn't increase with a new CBA like it probably will) and keep a player you like for longer.

If the Celtics are right, they've got a bargain.  If they're wrong, the cost is negligible.

haven't missed anything -
how about using a better example than tyler Johnson to make point (justifying an unnecessary contract)

don't know anyone else putting Johnson & Jackson in the same sentence - especially given that roster depth is completely different

UNLESS there is another move coming ( as I and others have suggested)



No need for a better example, Tyler Johnson is the perfect example. Two years in the league, became a solid contributor, and it put the Heat in a difficult position.

Why? Because they didn't have Bird Rights on him so they had to use cap space to keep him, and secondly, the market for those types of young players exploded so it was expensive to keep him.

What signing second rounders to 3+ year contracts is that it gives a team Full Bird rights, which means they'll have very little impact on salary cap space and if the player is worth keeping once free-agency hits, they can use up all the cap space, and then spend whatever is needed to keep him.

Now, Tyler Johnson wasn't a 2nd rounder, he was actually an undrafted rookie, but theory still applies.

Giving 3+ years contracts to rookies is standard procedure for Ainge, and I fully support it. It's nothing new or something to throw the hands up about. It's prudent and smart strategy.

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2016, 08:41:08 PM »

Offline lefty12

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When Jackson gets in a game and plays like Tyler Johnson that will be an appro comp

What 2nd round pick from '16 draft got a similar deal with comparable roster depth

Based on SL play alone - Jackson was borderline to be 15th man

And definitely will be in Maine


So NO Tyler Johnson is not a good comp -even with the benefit of hindsight

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2016, 08:50:25 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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When Jackson gets in a game and plays like Tyler Johnson that will be an appro comp

What 2nd round pick from '16 draft got a similar deal with comparable roster depth

Based on SL play alone - Jackson was borderline to be 15th man

And definitely will be in Maine


So NO Tyler Johnson is not a good comp -even with the benefit of hindsight


You simply aren't seeing clearly the rules by which the CBA operates and the opportunity cost that accompanies it.

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2016, 09:04:07 PM »

Offline Cman

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Assuming Bentil is also signed per reports, combined with the Zeller & Green signings, that puts us at 18 players under contract.

Thomas
Horford
Bradley
Crowder
Johnson
Brown
Jerebko
Olynyk
Smart
Rozier
Zeller
Green
Hunter
Young
Mickey
Jackson
Bentil
Holand

That's 3 too many.

Holland is a free cut (non-guaranteed contract) but the word is both Jackson and Bentil are getting some guaranteed money.   Signing them now not only puts pressure on the limited roster slots, but also has the effect of starting the clock on their rookie contract years-of-control.

Unless a trade is in the works, signing Holland and Bentil (instead of stashing them) seems like a very unusual move right now.

So it seems very much like a trade is brewing, though I suppose it may not happen for a little while.

Newly signed rooks can't be traded for 30 days.   Once signed, FAs like Green can't be traded until December. 

Of course, if none of those players are actually part of the trade, then none of those delays would matter.

Has Jaylen Brown been officially signed yet?  If not ... hmmm.

Brown hasn't been signed.

But he will be.

Bentil and Holland will be cut.
Young or Hunter will be cut or traded.
Perhaps there's some other trade, but probably not.
Your roster is basically the above, likely minus three out of Bentil, Holland, Young and Hunter.
Celtics fan for life.

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2016, 09:10:52 PM »

Offline lefty12

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When Jackson gets in a game and plays like Tyler Johnson that will be an appro comp

What 2nd round pick from '16 draft got a similar deal with comparable roster depth

Based on SL play alone - Jackson was borderline to be 15th man

And definitely will be in Maine


So NO Tyler Johnson is not a good comp -even with the benefit of hindsight


You simply aren't seeing clearly the rules by which the CBA operates and the opportunity cost that accompanies it.

And you are simply changing the original premise - trying to justify the signing

Do we need to repeat a 4th time?

Signing Jackson with current depth at his position - could signal a future move at that position

You can change the argument and try to comp Tyler Johnson. It's not a comp to this situation

Nobody knows if Jackson can stick in the league

Johnson has earned a $50M contract

Comp? Really?

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2016, 09:33:41 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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When Jackson gets in a game and plays like Tyler Johnson that will be an appro comp

What 2nd round pick from '16 draft got a similar deal with comparable roster depth

Based on SL play alone - Jackson was borderline to be 15th man

And definitely will be in Maine


So NO Tyler Johnson is not a good comp -even with the benefit of hindsight


You simply aren't seeing clearly the rules by which the CBA operates and the opportunity cost that accompanies it.

And you are simply changing the original premise - trying to justify the signing

Do we need to repeat a 4th time?

Signing Jackson with current depth at his position - could signal a future move at that position

You can change the argument and try to comp Tyler Johnson. It's not a comp to this situation

Nobody knows if Jackson can stick in the league

Johnson has earned a $50M contract

Comp? Really?



1. I'm not changing the premise, if you like a 2nd rounder the best strategy is always to go for a 3+ year structured contract, always, with very few exceptional situations. I'm not justifying anything, it's the strategy I've always called for. It's the strategy Ainge has been doing since forever. This is nothing new and there's not need to justify it, simply understand it. But you're unwilling to listen.

2. We're pretty much deep in all positions. Ball handling is where we're weakest at depth wise.

3. No one is comparing him to Johnson the player, merely the lesson to be learned of giving short contracts to young players vs. giving them a contract that guarantees cheap control on a player with Full Bird Rights.

4. Who cares if Jackson can stick in the league. It's a cheap contract, it's not going to impede Ainge from doing the moves he wants to do in the least. Small risk at a cost not much higher than a minimum.

I'm sorry you can't see it, and are simply focused on the "He's not worth it!" rhetoric, which really is the least important aspect of the deal at the moment.

5. Yes, Johnson earned a $50M contract, but it's severely impeded the Heat from making better usage of their cap space. If they had the foresight, like Ainge does, of signing rookies to 3-year contracts, Johnson earning that much wouldn't have impeded the Heat from making better moves this offseason. In fact, Johnson would've still been under contract cheaply. Sorry if you don't see it that way.

6. No one is comparing Jackson to Johnson, no one. What is being mentioned is the cautionary tale of not locking up your rookies on cheap contracts and gaining their Bird Rights while doing so. If they get good, you have cheap control on a player without affecting much of your cap space. If they suck, the cost will be negligible.

Now, if you're telling me that you fear and will sorely miss Young or Hunter, then that's fine. But otherwise, not much to argue against here with this move.

I'm indifferent to Jackson the player, that's up to Ainge to judge if he's worth the gamble. But I fully support giving 2nd round rookies these types of contracts, no matter who they are.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 09:48:26 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2016, 09:48:21 PM »

Offline hardlyyardley

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To reiterate my feelings.....having seen Jackson  at least a dozen times over the last couple of years, I was impressed with his tenacity and clutch play especially in their '15 NCAA  run

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2016, 09:49:06 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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The kid couldn't even bring the ball up when he was pressured and this was against Summer league competition.  And he couldn't defend.  He played so poorly that if he were a free agent instead of a draft pick, he'd probably be looking for a job right now.  Still trying to figure out what they see in him. 

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2016, 09:50:22 PM »

Offline footey

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Seems like management likes him better than you, Lefty. Fair?

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2016, 10:26:26 PM »

Offline danglertx

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He must look really good in practice, because in the SL games he could hardly get the ball up court and get us into our offense.

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2016, 11:07:55 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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He must look really good in practice, because in the SL games he could hardly get the ball up court and get us into our offense.

In the first couple of games in Utah he was ok, though he did seem to play worse in Vegas. I think that Danny and his team had a good impression of him in college. I'm not sure that anything that he has done since being drafted has hugely influenced the team's decision to sign him.

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2016, 11:41:54 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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I'm worried about the roster space. Danny may have to waive some of the young guys for nothing. I would trade some of them for second rounders if necessary

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2016, 11:46:46 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I'm worried about the roster space. Danny may have to waive some of the young guys for nothing. I would trade some of them for second rounders if necessary

It happens.  We had 12 draft picks and 7 first round picks in three seasons.  We knew (or should have known) that not all would pan out.  I just shrug my shoulders and move on.

Re: Demetrius got paid!
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2016, 11:59:45 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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I'm worried about the roster space. Danny may have to waive some of the young guys for nothing. I would trade some of them for second rounders if necessary

It happens.  We had 12 draft picks and 7 first round picks in three seasons.  We knew (or should have known) that not all would pan out.  I just shrug my shoulders and move on.

It still seems ... unnecessary.   What is compelling about adding Jackson to the roster now, rather than stashing him?

Unlike Lefty, I totally get why the contract is structured that way.  I just don't get why we wouldn't stash both Jackson and Bentil.    If both refuse to be stashed, then why draft them?  Are they that much more compelling as end-of-roster pieces than the end-of-roster pieces we already have?

To me, the oddity has nothing to do with Jackson getting such a nice contract -- the Tyler Johnson example (not a "comp") makes it clear the "why" of structuring that way.  The oddity is the situation at all.  Why are we crowding the roster, which forces roster moves, when it could have been avoided.

If the answer is as simple as, "They like Jackson & Bentil more than they like Hunter & Young and they refuse to be stashed.", then I guess that's fine.  But do they really like Jackson & Bentil that much more than guys like Zipser or Cornelie, who almost certainly could have been stashed internationally?

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.