Thinking out loud - does Gordon for Brown makes sense for both Boston + Orlando?

[tarheelsxxiii]

Tired of your shenanigans, LarBrd. I hope to introduce you at the CsBlog HOF introduction ceremony someday, though. I think your body of work speaks for itself. Personally, if you told me to jump off a bridge I wouldn't hesitate. Because I love you.

[Tr1boy]

Congratulations LarBrd33.  You got many fans here it looks like lol

[hwangjini_1]

It's fine to say Gordon isn't a great shooter.  I'd agree with that.  He's not a great shooter.  But you're quoting Gordon's shooting percentages (48% from the field last season and 30% from three), at least point out that Jaylen Brown is coming into this league with a reputation as a terrible shooter.  (College: 43% from the field with 29% from three).  He just backed up that criticism by shooting 32% from the field and 22% from three against a competition level that Aaron Gordon straight-up dominated (Gordon had arguably the best Summer League of the past decade).    If you're expecting Brown to miraculously shoot better as an NBA rookie than he did in College or Summer League, fine... but all signs point to him being worse than Gordon right now.

Go ahead and share more stats about how poor a shooter Aaron Gordon is.  Alls I'm saying is, those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones... unless you're Jaylen Brown... in which case, throw all the stones you want, you ain't hitting anything.

Actually if you read scouting reports before draft Gordon was considered a bad shooter. Probably worsh than Brown especially factoring in free throw percentage.

And that has basically nothing to do with Aaron Gordon in year 3.  He made leaps between his rookie and sophomore season.  Perhaps Jaylen will to.    So telling me that Gordon was considered a bad shooter coming into the draft ... while Jaylen is also considered a bad shooter - doesn't really prove anything, right?

Anyways... Gordon was seen as a better prospect.   Look no further than the world-famous Chad Ford Draft tier article.

Scouts/experts had Gordon as a tier 2 prospect.  "Tier 2 is reserved for players who are projected as potential All-Stars by scouts.".   Gordon was in there above Marcus Smart, who Gordon was drafted ahead of and continues to be seen as a better prospect than two years later. 

Scouts/experts had Brown as a tier 3 prospect.  "This tier is typically reserved for players who are projected as NBA starters".   He also mentioned:  "Of this group, Bender and Brown were the only players to receive Tier 4 votes."

So Gordon was seen as a future star heading into the draft.  Some saw Brown as a projecting as a high-level rotation player.

2014 Draft tiers:  http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/394690-chad-ford-ranking-draft-prospects-by-tiers-2014/

2016 Draft tiers:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=85249.0

Is what it is.

So now that we've gotten that out of the way and established that yes, Gordon was seen as a superior prospect, we can go back to comparing them right now.

Give me one piece of evidence that suggests any part of Jaylen Brown's game is superior to Aaron Gordon right now.  I don't see any.   From everything we've seen, Brown isn't as good as Gordon right now.  This is understandable, though considering Gordon is heading into his 3rd NBA season and Jaylen, having never played an NBA game, just got done struggling in Summer league. 

Naturally, I'll now be labelled a "hater" by some of the more ignorant menaces that fester on this forum.   Others will rabblerouse about how I'm a Orlando Magic fan and have Aaron Gordon posters on my wall.  But I assure you, I'm firmly on the Jaylen Brown bandwagon.  I've been supportive of the pick.   I trust Ainge.  Brown shows signs of being good some day.  I was encouraged by aspects of his summer league performance.  I am looking forward very much to watching him develop.   But again, I see no reason to believe any part of his game is better than Gordon right now.

Did you seriously just use Chad Ford's tiers? Why not use how many pokemon the guys caught? This is a guy that edits his draft orders after the fact to make himself look smarter, and we are supposed to take his tiers level as gospel? They were both rated very similarly coming out of high school my any site i could find (both within their class and overall) and you choose to come back with Chad Ford tiers. 

It's based on his conversations with scouts and front offices.  It's not his personal mock.  It's supposed to give you a sense of how significant the prospects are seen as they enter the draft.  Point is, Gordon was seen as a future star.  Opinions on Brown are split between those who think he's going to be a future starter and those who think he projects as a high quality rotation player.

We hope for the best, though.

Lets look at this again and realize it was torn into pieces 3 minutes into most of these guys careers. Maybe don't use this again as something with any value?

Tier 3:

Gary Harris
Doug McDermott
Nik Stauskas

Tier 4

Tyler Ennis

Rodney Hood
Zach LaVine
Jusuf Nurkic
Elfrid Payton
Adreian Payne
Kristaps Porzingis
James Young

Irrelevant.   Stop wasting my time, Clay.   Tell me something useful.

Gordon was seen as a higher level prospect than Jaylen is seen at right now.  It is what it is.   Showing me a bunch of irrelevant stuff about how guys have and haven't panned out has nothing to do with whether or not Jaylen is seen as a better prospect than Gordon was in 2014.

And as I said before, that really doesn't matter one way or the other.   The key question was, right now, is Jaylen better than Gordon is?  No.  The answer is no.

Long-term, maybe.  But there's no reason to believe Brown is better than Gordon right now.

How is that irrelevant there sparky?  You used this as your argument for their comparable value. I scrolled down and showed you how far off Ford's tier was from the exact same source you bothered to cut and paste from.

If you use something objective, like numeral rankings from rivals, or ESPN for them as high school seniors they both had the same exact ranking (both in their number rating, and within their class). I stopped looked beyond that , but have a feeling any reputable source would have given them a very similar rating as high school seniors. Stop misleading the board by pretending they were different level prospects cause that just isn't true. Both were projected as high lottery picks, both were seen as having the potential to grow into an all star. I have read some people saying Brown has superstar potential, but people may have said that about Gordon and I missed it. It is what it is, they are similar prospects. Sorry you can't spin it a different way...

Easy. That's LarBrd33 logic 101- if it doesn't fit his narrative, then it's necessarily wrong, irrelevant, or subject to interpretation. That's been his MO here for years.

Yes it is. And god it gets old. When are the mods going to put an ignore button in here?

[byennie]

Gordon is probably worth a little more to Orlando, because his development appears to be going according to plan and they are about to reap the rewards.

Brown is probably worth more to Boston, because they fully expect him to do the same, and they have 2 more years of control. They have no motivation to trade him for anything except an already established star. Zero. Whether you agree with their assessment of him or not, that's the case.

Whether or not Aaron Gordon reached epic summer league levels, or Chad Ford had them in the same tier is pretty much irrelevant. They're not the same, but they are at least comparable.

In short, it's a no from both teams. Playing the old "the other team laughs" card is mostly trolling.

[byennie]

Blargh. Wrong tab/thread

[ThePaintedArea]

Boys, boys.

I'm cool with whatever opinions anyone's got about Jaylen.  This guy has been dividing the experts from the beginning, as LarBrd33 points out.

What was really interesting  was that the analytics approaches (I checked Pelton, who I think is very astute, and the Nylon Calculus guy) -  were even more bearish than Chad Ford; there was actually a lot of agreement with the more traditional scouting.  Ainge misfire?  They've obviously prioritized leadership in their personnel decisions - was this a case of doing that at the expense of actual basketball talent?

But lo and behold Summer League arrives, and it turns out that this guy has some pretty startling capacities.  He's quick and nimble as a cat - but wants to get in and mix it up. He keeps moving. He's long, has pickpocket's hands, a smooth, precise stroke - but above all, he wants to get to the rim and finish with contact - and he's a WORKER.  Among other things, the left hand is a lot better than what I saw of his college play.

He's ambitious with his skills.  In the Dallas game first half he hits a nicely contested shot-clock beater turnaround shot, on the move, fading to the baseline; the announcer called it a "Michael Jordan" shot.  Well, it's summer league, let's not get carried away; and it's not plausible that that's a reliable go-to move for Brown this season once the Big Show starts.  But it was beautifully executed; you can't do that without some serious, detailed work.  Also to take away there: he's practicing tough shots - he's working on being the closer that the Celtics so badly need. 

He needs reps, but boy the upside.

He has great promise and ability on both ends; he's built to defend the closers of the NBA - Kawhi, Melo, Klay, Butler (by the way, I'm betting that all talks between Bulls and C's about Jimmy are on hold).  Bron is pretty big - but Jaylen has already said he looks forward to checking him.  Love the ambition!  At that level, the difference comes down to just how hard you want it.

The unusual body format helps him in the lane - squiggly lower body but good girth in the shoulders to muscle through.

This guy could be special.

No Gordon does not make sense.  Hey, I LOVE the guy and he's advanced rapidly in two years - they got an excellent pick.

There are two reasons:

1. Jaylen is a different kind of player than Gordon.  But not just, like, different position: Jaylen is that rare commodity, a closer: a guy who can go get a bucket, can go get to the line.  Now that's true even if he doesn't pan out.  But he has the tools to be in that little club of guys the team relies on for points.  What he does is more valuable than what Gordon does; Boston is best served by seeing if he can develop into one of those few guys.

2. Jaylen has a higher ceiling than Gordon; this one is what people have been arguing over - but note that it's different from my first reason.  Why I say that can be boiled down to: fine motor skills.  The kid is truly blessed.

Trade someone else for Gordon.

@saltlover's thread about the wait on signing Brown's contract:  well if they trade him, too bad I say.  I say keep him a Celtic - he's got a shot at greatness.

[LarBrd33]

All that said, jaylen had a pretty mediocre summer league, showed an inability to shoot or finish, and will likely struggle on the NBA level as a rookie unless he dramatically improves.  He shot 32% from the field and 22% from three.  When players display that type of inefficiency, they aren't given a green light on the pro level.   He will need to show real improvement quickly to have a role this season.

On the flip side, Aaron Gordon proved a year ago that he can completely dominate that level of competition. It's beneath him.  He's still finding his grove on the NBA level and while some expect him to leap into stardom this years other think he will continue to be average.   But the bottom line is that Aaron Gordon has proven he can dominate the type of competition Jaylen just struggled against.

That can mean nothing to you.  You can gloss over his inefficiencies and focus on his potential.  Gordon has potential as well.  We have seen real tangible progress from him.  Simply look at how he performed as a rookie in summer league compared to his second season.  We can assume he will be even better this year. 

So while Huey, Dewey, Ace, Gary and Louie continue their narrative spin that I'm bashing Jaylen and have a Ronda Rousey for Aaron Gordon, the simple truth is that thus far there is nothing Jaylen has proven able to do that Aaron Gordon hasn't proven able to do better. 

I'm actually pretty high on Jaylen.  I love his ability to create and get to the basket. He's quick and has solid ball handling. He looks like he will be a good defender.  His shot mechanics look good.  I have hopes he will develop into a great player in a few years.   I haven't been this excited about a Celtic prospect since Al Jefferson.  I can't wait to see how he develops.   

As far as I can tell, Gordon is better and might be better long term.   A bunch of you can disagree with me.  It wouldn't be the first time the majority opinion has been wrong on this forum.

I'd ask that someone who is firmly in the "Jaylen is better he looked great in summer league" to do me a solid and watch video of Aaron Gordon last summer and give me their honest analysis:   https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g30F54PaBY0

[crimson_stallion]

Summer league stats for the top 8 draft picks from the 2016 draft

Ben Simmons
* 23.7 Min, 10 pts, 8 reb, 5 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 TO, 2 PF, 22.2% FG, 0% 3PT, 100% FT

Brendan Ingram
* 27.4 Min, 12.2 Pts, 4.2 Reb, 1.8 Ast, 1.8 Ast, 0.6 Stl, 0.4 Blk, 1.6 TO, 0.6 PF, 41.2% FG, 25% 3PT, 71% FT

Jaylen Brown
* 29.1 Min, 16 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 1.3 Ast, 2.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk, 2.1 TO, 3.5 PF, 32% FG, 23% 3PT, 70% FT   

Dragan Bender
* 31.9 Min, 8.6 Pts, 5.6 Reb, 1.0 Ast, 1.0 Stl, 1.0 Blk, 3.8 TO, 4.4 PF, 28% FG, 27% 3PT, 50% FT

Kris Dunn
* 33.9 Min, 24 Pts, 7 Reb, 3 Ast, 2.0 Stl, 1.0 Blk, 3 TO, 7.5 PF, 54% FG, 17% 3PT, 60% FT

Buddy Hield
* 31.9 Min, 16.8 Pts, 5.4 Reb, 3.8 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.2 Blk, 2.8 TO, 2.8 PF, 33
% FG, 23$ 3PT, 90% FT

Jamal Murray
* 29.5 Min, 19.6 Pts, 5 Reb, 2.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.4 Blk, 2.8 TO, 1.4 PF, 42% FG, 28% 3PT, 89% FT

Marquese Chriss
* 30.2 Min, 10 Pts, 9 Reb, 0.3 Ast, 0.3 Stl, 0.7 Blk, 3.3 TO, 5.3 PF, 33% FG, 0% 3PT, 57% FT



Summer league stats for the top 3 picks from the 2015 draft

Karl Anthony Towns
* 31.2 Min, 12.8 Pts, 7.2 Reb, 2 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 1.8 Blk, 3.4 TO, 6.2 PF, 40% FG, 0% 3PT, 73% FT

D'Angelo Russel
* 30.1 Min, 16.2 Pts, 5.7 Reb, 3.6 Ast, 1.2 Stl, 0.3 Blk, 4.9 TO, 3.7 PF, 43% FG, 29% 3PT, 70% FT

Jahlil Okafor
* 30.6 Min, 16.2 Pts, 8.2 Reb, 1.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.8 Blk, 4.6 TO, 3.6 PF, 45% FG, 0% 3PT, 40% FT


Summer League stats from the top two picks of the 2014 draft

Andrew Wiggins
* 29.9 Min, 15.5 Pts, 3.5 Reb, 0.25 Ast, 1.25 Stl, 1.5 Blk, 2.8 TO, 4 PF, 40% FG, 15% 3PT, 70% FT

Jabari Parker
*  28.6 Min, 15.6 Pts, 8.2 Reb, 1.4 Ast, 1.2 Stl, 0 Blk, 5 TO, 2.8 PF, 42% FG, 18% 3PT, 70% FT


Now please, Mr LarBrd33 - Would you mind explaining to me why we should be so dramatically concerned about Jaylen Brown's Summer League stats?

I think we can all agree that Wiggins and KAT (who had summer league stats on par with Jaylen Brown's) have turned out to be a MUCH better pro players then Aaron Gordon (who's amazing summer league performance keeps being highlighted by yours truly).   

In fact, if you look at the top 4 picks from this year's draft, Jaylen Brown's performance in Summer League was clearly the second best after Simmons.  IT was clearly a whole level above that of Ingram and Bender.

In fact out of the top 10 picks I would say that Dunn, Simmons and Maker were the only top 10 picks who looks better in summer league then Brown did.

[chambers]

I'd prefer to keep Brown at this point.
He's more versatile than Gordon on offense, but they are both excellent players are future All Stars.

I think Brown has the higher upside overall. I don't think a trade makes sense for us because we need a young wing. We've only got Crowder at this point.
Both great players and Aaron Gordon is an absolute stud in the making.
Gordon's knee injury might worry potential trade suitors though, even if he made a full recovery last year.

[jpotter33]

Summer league stats for the top 8 draft picks from the 2016 draft

Ben Simmons
* 23.7 Min, 10 pts, 8 reb, 5 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 TO, 2 PF, 22.2% FG, 0% 3PT, 100% FT

Brendan Ingram
* 27.4 Min, 12.2 Pts, 4.2 Reb, 1.8 Ast, 1.8 Ast, 0.6 Stl, 0.4 Blk, 1.6 TO, 0.6 PF, 41.2% FG, 25% 3PT, 71% FT

Jaylen Brown
* 29.1 Min, 16 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 1.3 Ast, 2.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk, 2.1 TO, 3.5 PF, 32% FG, 23% 3PT, 70% FT   

Dragan Bender
* 31.9 Min, 8.6 Pts, 5.6 Reb, 1.0 Ast, 1.0 Stl, 1.0 Blk, 3.8 TO, 4.4 PF, 28% FG, 27% 3PT, 50% FT

Kris Dunn
* 33.9 Min, 24 Pts, 7 Reb, 3 Ast, 2.0 Stl, 1.0 Blk, 3 TO, 7.5 PF, 54% FG, 17% 3PT, 60% FT

Buddy Hield
* 31.9 Min, 16.8 Pts, 5.4 Reb, 3.8 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.2 Blk, 2.8 TO, 2.8 PF, 33
% FG, 23$ 3PT, 90% FT

Jamal Murray
* 29.5 Min, 19.6 Pts, 5 Reb, 2.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.4 Blk, 2.8 TO, 1.4 PF, 42% FG, 28% 3PT, 89% FT

Marquese Chriss
* 30.2 Min, 10 Pts, 9 Reb, 0.3 Ast, 0.3 Stl, 0.7 Blk, 3.3 TO, 5.3 PF, 33% FG, 0% 3PT, 57% FT



Summer league stats for the top 3 picks from the 2015 draft

Karl Anthony Towns
* 31.2 Min, 12.8 Pts, 7.2 Reb, 2 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 1.8 Blk, 3.4 TO, 6.2 PF, 40% FG, 0% 3PT, 73% FT

D'Angelo Russel
* 30.1 Min, 16.2 Pts, 5.7 Reb, 3.6 Ast, 1.2 Stl, 0.3 Blk, 4.9 TO, 3.7 PF, 43% FG, 29% 3PT, 70% FT

Jahlil Okafor
* 30.6 Min, 16.2 Pts, 8.2 Reb, 1.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.8 Blk, 4.6 TO, 3.6 PF, 45% FG, 0% 3PT, 40% FT


Summer League stats from the top two picks of the 2014 draft

Andrew Wiggins
* 29.9 Min, 15.5 Pts, 3.5 Reb, 0.25 Ast, 1.25 Stl, 1.5 Blk, 2.8 TO, 4 PF, 40% FG, 15% 3PT, 70% FT

Jabari Parker
*  28.6 Min, 15.6 Pts, 8.2 Reb, 1.4 Ast, 1.2 Stl, 0 Blk, 5 TO, 2.8 PF, 42% FG, 18% 3PT, 70% FT


Now please, Mr LarBrd33 - Would you mind explaining to me why we should be so dramatically concerned about Jaylen Brown's Summer League stats?

I think we can all agree that Wiggins and KAT (who had summer league stats on par with Jaylen Brown's) have turned out to be a MUCH better pro players then Aaron Gordon (who's amazing summer league performance keeps being highlighted by yours truly).   

In fact, if you look at the top 4 picks from this year's draft, Jaylen Brown's performance in Summer League was clearly the second best after Simmons.  IT was clearly a whole level above that of Ingram and Bender.

In fact out of the top 10 picks I would say that Dunn, Simmons and Maker were the only top 10 picks who looks better in summer league then Brown did.

Yet I can't tell you how many times I've heard the pundits talking about Simmons absolutely dominating the summer league. It's ridiculous. He definitely looked excellent passing, but he was pretty mediocre elsewhere.

[LarBrd33]

Now please, Mr LarBrd33 - Would you mind explaining to me why we should be so dramatically concerned about Jaylen Brown's Summer League stats?

Who said I was concerned about Jaylen's summer league stats?  His stats were fine.  He's 19.  He showed what we expected him to show.  He struggled with what we expected him to struggle with.  A year from now, hopefully he's better.  Five years from now, he might be really good.  I never said I was concerned.

Is it ok to admit Aaron Gordon is better than Jaylen Brown without being concerned about Jaylen Brown?  This reminds me of when I said Chris Paul was better than Rajon Rondo and people claimed I hated Rondo.

That's a lot of energy wasted to misunderstand my point and fail to address the premise of this thread.  Would Orlando trade Gordon for Brown?  No.  Gordon is better.  I don't blame anyone for wanting to trade Brown for Gordon, but it's not realistic.

[crimson_stallion]

Yet I can't tell you how many times I've heard the pundits talking about Simmons absolutely dominating the summer league. It's ridiculous. He definitely looked excellent passing, but he was pretty mediocre elsewhere.

He certainly was not 'dominant', though there is no denying that he was extremely impressive.  You can't argue with Per-36 numbers of 15.2 Points, 12.2 Rebounds and 7.6 Assists.  That's crazy - a hell of a lot more impressive then what Okafor and KAT averaged in their summer league debuts, with the only disappointing part being his shooting really.  When Simmons works out how to finish in this league he's going to be a monster.

By comparison, here are the Per-36 numbers of the rest of the top 8 players:

- Ingram: 16.0 Pts, 5.5 Reb,  2.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.5 Blk
- Brown: 19.8 Pts, 7.6 Reb, 1.6 Ast, 2.9 Stl, 1 Blk
- Bender: 9.7 Pts, 6.3 Reb, 1.1 Ast, 1.1 Stl, 1.1 Blk
- Dunn: 25.5 Pts, 7.4 Reb, 2.9 Ast, 2.1 Stl, 1.0 Blk
- Hield: 19.0 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Murray: 23.9 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Chriss: 11.9 Pts, 10.7 Reb, 0.3 Ast, 0.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk

I think it's pretty clear that Simmons and Dunn had the best overall numbers out of the top 8, followed by Murray, Brown and Hield. 

The others were all 'unspectacular' to say the least.

[LarBrd33]

Yet I can't tell you how many times I've heard the pundits talking about Simmons absolutely dominating the summer league. It's ridiculous. He definitely looked excellent passing, but he was pretty mediocre elsewhere.

He certainly was not 'dominant', though there is no denying that he was extremely impressive.  You can't argue with Per-36 numbers of 15.2 Points, 12.2 Rebounds and 7.6 Assists.  That's crazy - a hell of a lot more impressive then what Okafor and KAT averaged in their summer league debuts, with the only disappointing part being his shooting really.  When Simmons works out how to finish in this league he's going to be a monster.

By comparison, here are the Per-36 numbers of the rest of the top 8 players:

- Ingram: 16.0 Pts, 5.5 Reb,  2.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.5 Blk
- Brown: 19.8 Pts, 7.6 Reb, 1.6 Ast, 2.9 Stl, 1 Blk
- Bender: 9.7 Pts, 6.3 Reb, 1.1 Ast, 1.1 Stl, 1.1 Blk
- Dunn: 25.5 Pts, 7.4 Reb, 2.9 Ast, 2.1 Stl, 1.0 Blk
- Hield: 19.0 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Murray: 23.9 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Chriss: 11.9 Pts, 10.7 Reb, 0.3 Ast, 0.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk

I think it's pretty clear that Simmons and Dunn had the best overall numbers out of the top 8, followed by Murray, Brown and Hield. 

The others were all 'unspectacular' to say the least.

Thanks for summing it up.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

19 year old Brown per-36:  19.8 points, 7.6 reounds, 1.6 assists, 1 block, 2.9 steals  32% FG, 22% 3P

So yeah, I agree with you.  Brown shows signs.  Gordon was better than him a year ago. 

[crimson_stallion]

Now please, Mr LarBrd33 - Would you mind explaining to me why we should be so dramatically concerned about Jaylen Brown's Summer League stats?

Who said I was concerned about Jaylen's summer league stats?  His stats were fine.  He's 19.  He showed what we expected him to show.  He struggled with what we expected him to struggle with.  A year from now, hopefully he's better.  Five years from now, he might be really good.  I never said I was concerned.

Is it ok to admit Aaron Gordon is better than Jaylen Brown without being concerned about Jaylen Brown?  This reminds me of when I said Chris Paul was better than Rajon Rondo and people claimed I hated Rondo.

That's a lot of energy wasted to misunderstand my point and fail to address the premise of this thread.  Would Orlando trade Gordon for Brown?  No.  Gordon is better.  I don't blame anyone for wanting to trade Brown for Gordon, but it's not realistic.

You were using summer league stats as the primary basis for your argument that Gordon was a much better prospect when he entered the NBA then Brown is now.

I posted the aforementioned stats to demonstrate the fact that just because Gordon has a much stronger summer league then Brown, that does not come even remotely close to signifying that he is a better player/prospect.

Gordon has made it through two seasons (and 125 games) as an NBA pro, and over those 125 games he's averaged 7.7 points, 5.4 rebounds and 1.6 assists (while shooting 46%/29%/68%) while playing 21 MPG on a mediocre eastern conference team that has no stars (and hence every reason to play their young talent). 

His Per 36 numbers over his career so far (13 points, 9 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.1 steals, 1.1 blocks) put him on target to become the next Amir Johnson - except Johnson is far more efficient offensively and was a far superior defensive player.  In other words he's right in line to become a poor man's Amir Johnson.

Is Jaylen Brown better then Aaron Gordon right now?  I don't know, we haven't yet seen him play an NBA game. 

In Aaron Gordon's first 10 NBA games as a rookie he averaged 5.8 points, 4.1 rebounds. 0.7 assists, 0.2 steals and 0.5 blocks in 14.5 minutes.  It's entirely possible that we might not see a while lot more then that from Jaylen to start off his rookie year either.  Or he might surprise us, produce from day one, and put serious pressure on our starters.

Nobody knows because he hasn't played a game yet.

But the point is, just because Jaylen struggled in Summer League, doesn't mean he's going to have a poor rookie year.  Wiggins' Summer League performance was no better then Brown's was, and yet Wiggins was a better player as a rookie then Aaron Gordon is now as a second year pro.

In fact Jaylen Brown and Andrew Wiggins have a LOT in common.  Both were very young coming into the league.  Both raised eyebrows because of their high level athleticism.  Both were red flagged because of questionable jump shots, questionable ball handle, and questionable basketball IQ.  Both were seen as having very high defensive upside.  Both were seen as very raw prospects, who weren't expected to do much from day one.  Extremely similar prospects, with the key different being that Jaylen Brown is a LOT stronger, and has a much higher motor (something Wiggins was criticised for).

So who knows how good Jaylen could be his rookie year?  Wiggins averaged 15 PPG in summer league, then went on to average 17 PPG in the regular season and take home the Rookie of the Year award.  Brown put up the same type of numbers in the summer league and is a similar type of player - he could very easily be a ROY contender if he were playing for a team where the minutes and opportunity were there.

At the end of the day, we just don't know.  Would I trade Brown for Gordon?  Honestly, probably not, because at this point Brown is still the unknown.  Is he a Wiggins, or is he merely a Justice Winslow?  We don't know yet, and I wouldn't want to trade him until we have seen what he can do in at least a month or two of NBA action.

Gordon on the other hand we have seen two seasons of - he's a nice player, but he's not a special player.  He's easily replaceable, not somebody you jump at the chance of trading for. 

[crimson_stallion]

Yet I can't tell you how many times I've heard the pundits talking about Simmons absolutely dominating the summer league. It's ridiculous. He definitely looked excellent passing, but he was pretty mediocre elsewhere.

He certainly was not 'dominant', though there is no denying that he was extremely impressive.  You can't argue with Per-36 numbers of 15.2 Points, 12.2 Rebounds and 7.6 Assists.  That's crazy - a hell of a lot more impressive then what Okafor and KAT averaged in their summer league debuts, with the only disappointing part being his shooting really.  When Simmons works out how to finish in this league he's going to be a monster.

By comparison, here are the Per-36 numbers of the rest of the top 8 players:

- Ingram: 16.0 Pts, 5.5 Reb,  2.4 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 0.5 Blk
- Brown: 19.8 Pts, 7.6 Reb, 1.6 Ast, 2.9 Stl, 1 Blk
- Bender: 9.7 Pts, 6.3 Reb, 1.1 Ast, 1.1 Stl, 1.1 Blk
- Dunn: 25.5 Pts, 7.4 Reb, 2.9 Ast, 2.1 Stl, 1.0 Blk
- Hield: 19.0 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Murray: 23.9 Pts, 6.1 Reb, 4.3 Ast, 0.9 Stl, 0.2 Blk
- Chriss: 11.9 Pts, 10.7 Reb, 0.3 Ast, 0.3 Stl, 0.8 Blk

I think it's pretty clear that Simmons and Dunn had the best overall numbers out of the top 8, followed by Murray, Brown and Hield. 

The others were all 'unspectacular' to say the least.

Thanks for summing it up.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

19 year old Brown per-36:  19.8 points, 7.6 reounds, 1.6 assists, 1 block, 2.9 steals  32% FG, 22% 3P

So yeah, I agree with you.  Brown shows signs.  Gordon was better than him a year ago.

19 year old Gordon per-36:  23.9 points, 12.8 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.8 blocks, 1.4 steals - 50% FG, 50% 3P

18 year old Wiggins per-36: 15.5 points, 3.5 reb, 0.25 assists, 1.5 blocks, 1.25 steals - 40% FG, 15% 3PT

Was Gordon better then Wiggins a year ago?  Let me help you with that - the answer is no.  Wiggins led all rookies in scoring and won the ROY award, and nobody else came close.

But you may foolishly believe Gordon was better if you went off nothing but those Summer League stats...but it seems Mr Aaron "Tweener" Gordon may be the type who likes to dominate against smaller and less skilled B-Grade competition, only to look far more average when facing actual men.

Wiggins on the other hand seemed to struggle against the amateurs, but showed what he could really do when it counted - on the real stage.

We don't know which of those two guys Jaylen Brown is going to be until we reach the all-Star break at the very least.