Author Topic: Thinking out loud - does Gordon for Brown makes sense for both Boston + Orlando?  (Read 26270 times)

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Offline Beat LA

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doesn't make sense for Orlando
why would it not make sense for them to get a better player? i am curious on this. thanks.
hes not
he is.

see? two can do that.  ;D



;D

Offline hwangjini_1

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doesn't make sense for Orlando
why would it not make sense for them to get a better player? i am curious on this. thanks.
hes not
he is.

see? two can do that.  ;D



;D
Ha,ha. And a tp for you. Great cartoon and a great commentary.  ;D
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Offline LarBrd33

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I assume that you laid down a case for why Jaylen Brown is better than Aaron Gordon.  That doesn't seem to be the case, but I hope you're right.  I guess we'll have to see how Jaylen plays on the pro level.  My expectations are that he'll average about 6 points on 35% shooting and struggle to make an impact for a few years.

Based on what little we've seen of Jaylen thus far (College and a few summer league games), I don't see any part of his game that is better than Aaron Gordon a year ago.

He has potential.  It's going to take him time. 

Aaron Gordon has made leaps.  Hopefully Jaylen can make similar leaps someday.
it is possible to think both are good, yet one may have an edge in a particular category/area that one of us values more than the other. that's life. :)

but, let's have some fun. i accept your "challenge" on brown's future. i predict he will surpass your predictions this year AND next. i am willing to commit to an awe inspiring wager as testiment to my belief.

if brown surpasses your prediction, you click and give me 10 valuable and precious tps each year. if brown does not, then i will return the favor.

and if brown manages to average EXACTLY 6 points a game, well hell, let's give each tps. ha, ha.

deal?  ;D
if the #3 pick actually averages 6 points, that's pretty brutally depressing.  Last year the #3 pick averaged 17 and 7 with 50% shooting and folks around here think he's worth a grilled cheese sandwich.   God help us if brown lives up to my expectations. 

Offline ThePaintedArea

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I assume that you laid down a case for why Jaylen Brown is better than Aaron Gordon.  That doesn't seem to be the case, but I hope you're right.  I guess we'll have to see how Jaylen plays on the pro level.  My expectations are that he'll average about 6 points on 35% shooting and struggle to make an impact for a few years.

Based on what little we've seen of Jaylen thus far (College and a few summer league games), I don't see any part of his game that is better than Aaron Gordon a year ago.

He has potential.  It's going to take him time. 

Aaron Gordon has made leaps.  Hopefully Jaylen can make similar leaps someday.
it is possible to think both are good, yet one may have an edge in a particular category/area that one of us values more than the other. that's life. :)

but, let's have some fun. i accept your "challenge" on brown's future. i predict he will surpass your predictions this year AND next. i am willing to commit to an awe inspiring wager as testiment to my belief.

if brown surpasses your prediction, you click and give me 10 valuable and precious tps each year. if brown does not, then i will return the favor.

and if brown manages to average EXACTLY 6 points a game, well hell, let's give each tps. ha, ha.

deal?  ;D
if the #3 pick actually averages 6 points, that's pretty brutally depressing.  Last year the #3 pick averaged 17 and 7 with 50% shooting and folks around here think he's worth a grilled cheese sandwich.   God help us if brown lives up to my expectations.

So,  do you accept the bargain?

Offline Granath

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I assume that you laid down a case for why Jaylen Brown is better than Aaron Gordon.  That doesn't seem to be the case, but I hope you're right.  I guess we'll have to see how Jaylen plays on the pro level.  My expectations are that he'll average about 6 points on 35% shooting and struggle to make an impact for a few years.

Based on what little we've seen of Jaylen thus far (College and a few summer league games), I don't see any part of his game that is better than Aaron Gordon a year ago.

He has potential.  It's going to take him time. 

Aaron Gordon has made leaps.  Hopefully Jaylen can make similar leaps someday.
it is possible to think both are good, yet one may have an edge in a particular category/area that one of us values more than the other. that's life. :)

but, let's have some fun. i accept your "challenge" on brown's future. i predict he will surpass your predictions this year AND next. i am willing to commit to an awe inspiring wager as testiment to my belief.

if brown surpasses your prediction, you click and give me 10 valuable and precious tps each year. if brown does not, then i will return the favor.

and if brown manages to average EXACTLY 6 points a game, well hell, let's give each tps. ha, ha.

deal?  ;D
if the #3 pick actually averages 6 points, that's pretty brutally depressing.  Last year the #3 pick averaged 17 and 7 with 50% shooting and folks around here think he's worth a grilled cheese sandwich.   God help us if brown lives up to my expectations.

If you can't see the difference between piling up empty stats on a 10 win team and the type of stats Brown will get on a top 4 playoff team in more limited minutes, well then that's on you.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Offline Tr1boy

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I'm not sure how many have seen Gordon play much, but he's not a very good basketball player. He tries to do too much (like going coast to coast instead of passing it to a guard and running the lane). He's not a very good rebounder at the 4 and gets bodied way too easy. Overall, he has a bad feel for the game.

Brown is younger and is a natural fit at the SF spot. Gordon can't really play that spot effectively because his ballhandling isn't that good and his shot is mechanically broken. I think Brown has the way higher upside. His first step is amazing and he has really good footwork. Plus, his shooting form, while still a work in progress, is sound. Let's also not forget that he has 2 more years of cost control under his rookie scale deal.

Watch some Magic games. Gordon is a rising player

Offline crimson_stallion

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I assume that you laid down a case for why Jaylen Brown is better than Aaron Gordon.  That doesn't seem to be the case, but I hope you're right.  I guess we'll have to see how Jaylen plays on the pro level.  My expectations are that he'll average about 6 points on 35% shooting and struggle to make an impact for a few years.

Based on what little we've seen of Jaylen thus far (College and a few summer league games), I don't see any part of his game that is better than Aaron Gordon a year ago.

He has potential.  It's going to take him time. 

Aaron Gordon has made leaps.  Hopefully Jaylen can make similar leaps someday.
it is possible to think both are good, yet one may have an edge in a particular category/area that one of us values more than the other. that's life. :)

but, let's have some fun. i accept your "challenge" on brown's future. i predict he will surpass your predictions this year AND next. i am willing to commit to an awe inspiring wager as testiment to my belief.

if brown surpasses your prediction, you click and give me 10 valuable and precious tps each year. if brown does not, then i will return the favor.

and if brown manages to average EXACTLY 6 points a game, well hell, let's give each tps. ha, ha.

deal?  ;D
if the #3 pick actually averages 6 points, that's pretty brutally depressing.  Last year the #3 pick averaged 17 and 7 with 50% shooting and folks around here think he's worth a grilled cheese sandwich.   God help us if brown lives up to my expectations.

If "PPG" was the only factor determining a player's value in this league, then your point would be a valid one.

It's not, however.

This league very strongly values flexibility (the ability of a player to be able to rapidly and effectively adapt changed in on-court circumstances) and versatility (the ability of a player to contribute in multiple ways).

Guys who lack flexibility/versatility, but who are exceptional at in one specific aspect of the game, are what we refer to as "role players".  Such players CAN still have significant value in the league, but they have far less value compared to players who can do a variety of things at a high level.

The former #3 pick you are referring to falls in to the "role player" category.  As an interior scorer, he is genuinely exceptional.  However there is nothing else at all that he does at a high level, and numerous things that he does at an alarmingly poor level.

The reason why people see such potential in Brown is that has the potential to become a very flexible/versatile player.  He has quite a bit of potential as a scorer, he is a very good rebounder relative to his position, he has very high potential on the defensive end, and he the type of physical attributes (height, length, physical strength, athleticism) to allow him to easily switch onto a range of different positions defensively.

If Brown were to improve across all the areas he's already competent in, you have a guy who can score, rebound and defend multiple positions - all at a high level.

If Okafor were to improve across all the areas he's already competent in, you'd have a elite post scorer and that's about all.

Okafor has a higher floor then Brown because he already does something at a very high level - so even if he never improves a smidgen his entire time in the league, he's still going to be useful to somebody as a big guy who can score in the paint.

However Brown has a far high ceiling then Okafor, because his ceiling is that of a star who can impact the game in a range of areas.

Brown's ceiling is pretty much Kawhi Leonard, while Okafor's ceiling is more like Brook Lopez...and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that 90% of GM's in the NBA would probably choose Kawhi Leonard over Brook Lopez if they had to choose a guy to build their franchise around.

You also have to consider role and opportunity.  Brown is going to be playing the SF spot behind Jae Crowder - a very good two way player who had a lot to do with this team's success last season.  His minutes are undoubtedly going to be limited (he may only get 20 minutes a game, perhaps even less) because he's playing behind a very good and very proven player for a team who's aim is to win a lot of games. Hence it's going to take a LOT of convincing for a Brown to steal minutes from a guy like Crowder.

Okafor played big minutes and was given pretty much complete freedom to dominate the ball as a primary option on a team that had no incentive to win games, and who's entire point of focus was on losing and getting reps for their young prospects.

If Brown were to play on the 76ers squad this year, there is a good chance he would be given ~30 minutes a game and that he would score ~16 PPG, especially given that team's desperate need for perimeter talent.

I'll also be VERY curious to see what will happen to Okafor's production if the Sixers can't move him in time for the start of the season, and if he and Noel end up playing 15-20 MPG off the bench as backups to Embiid and Simmons.  With Okafor no longer being the focal point of the offense and no longer playing big minutes, you may well find his production dropping to something more in the 9 point, 4.5 rebound range combined with his already very prominent weaknesses - at which point his value won't be nearly as high as it is now, and he may well become VERY difficult to trade.

I'm thinking the Sixers are going to try their best to make a trade happen while he still has ome value, and avoid that scenario.

Offline crimson_stallion

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Trade Crowder , Zizic and future 1st for Gordon.

That would be an embarrassingly bad trade for Boston, and Orlando would be rolling on the floor laughing at Danny Ainge for the next 5 or so years.

Crowder on his own is a much better player then Gordon is - trading him for Gordon straight up would be a bad trade.  Throwing in a prospect and a 1st rounder as well?  Terrible, and no way Danny would even contemplate doing that trade.

Offline LarBrd33

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I assume that you laid down a case for why Jaylen Brown is better than Aaron Gordon.  That doesn't seem to be the case, but I hope you're right.  I guess we'll have to see how Jaylen plays on the pro level.  My expectations are that he'll average about 6 points on 35% shooting and struggle to make an impact for a few years.

Based on what little we've seen of Jaylen thus far (College and a few summer league games), I don't see any part of his game that is better than Aaron Gordon a year ago.

He has potential.  It's going to take him time. 

Aaron Gordon has made leaps.  Hopefully Jaylen can make similar leaps someday.
it is possible to think both are good, yet one may have an edge in a particular category/area that one of us values more than the other. that's life. :)

but, let's have some fun. i accept your "challenge" on brown's future. i predict he will surpass your predictions this year AND next. i am willing to commit to an awe inspiring wager as testiment to my belief.

if brown surpasses your prediction, you click and give me 10 valuable and precious tps each year. if brown does not, then i will return the favor.

and if brown manages to average EXACTLY 6 points a game, well hell, let's give each tps. ha, ha.

deal?  ;D
if the #3 pick actually averages 6 points, that's pretty brutally depressing.  Last year the #3 pick averaged 17 and 7 with 50% shooting and folks around here think he's worth a grilled cheese sandwich.   God help us if brown lives up to my expectations.

If "PPG" was the only factor determining a player's value in this league, then your point would be a valid one.

It's not, however.

As far as I can tell, right now Aaron Gordon is a better mid-range shooter, a better 3-point shooter, a more explosive/athletic player, a better defender, a better finisher, better passer, has more size and is a better rebounder.

I don't see really anything that Jaylen does better than Aaron Gordon a year ago... let alone Gordon in year 3.

But long-term, both of these guys will end up very different players than they are today.  Jaylen is only 19 years old.  Gordon is 1 year older.   It's unfair to compare supremely raw Jaylen to Aaron Gordon after a full season of NBA (let alone two full seasons of NBA).  Five years from now, who knows.   I think both of them have a lot of theoretical potential. 

Again, I'm asking what people are basing their evaluations of Jaylen Brown on.  He wasn't very good in College.  He was just pretty mediocre in Summer League.  All the concerns people had about him shined brightly.  Can't shoot.  Can't finish.  Is it his Summer League performance that people are basing their evaluations on?   You need to be reminded that Aaron Gordon straight-up dominated Summer League a year ago.  Watch video of him and tell me what Jaylen is doing better right now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g30F54PaBY0   Gordon averaged 22 points, 12 rebounds, a few assists and a couple blocks/steal while shooting 50% and 50% from three.   If we're talkin summer league, there's no comparison.


Offline crimson_stallion

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I assume that you laid down a case for why Jaylen Brown is better than Aaron Gordon.  That doesn't seem to be the case, but I hope you're right.  I guess we'll have to see how Jaylen plays on the pro level.  My expectations are that he'll average about 6 points on 35% shooting and struggle to make an impact for a few years.

Based on what little we've seen of Jaylen thus far (College and a few summer league games), I don't see any part of his game that is better than Aaron Gordon a year ago.

He has potential.  It's going to take him time. 

Aaron Gordon has made leaps.  Hopefully Jaylen can make similar leaps someday.
it is possible to think both are good, yet one may have an edge in a particular category/area that one of us values more than the other. that's life. :)

but, let's have some fun. i accept your "challenge" on brown's future. i predict he will surpass your predictions this year AND next. i am willing to commit to an awe inspiring wager as testiment to my belief.

if brown surpasses your prediction, you click and give me 10 valuable and precious tps each year. if brown does not, then i will return the favor.

and if brown manages to average EXACTLY 6 points a game, well hell, let's give each tps. ha, ha.

deal?  ;D
if the #3 pick actually averages 6 points, that's pretty brutally depressing.  Last year the #3 pick averaged 17 and 7 with 50% shooting and folks around here think he's worth a grilled cheese sandwich.   God help us if brown lives up to my expectations.

If "PPG" was the only factor determining a player's value in this league, then your point would be a valid one.

It's not, however.

As far as I can tell, right now Aaron Gordon is a better mid-range shooter, a better 3-point shooter, a more explosive/athletic player, a better defender, a better finisher, better passer, has more size and is a better rebounder.

I don't see really anything that Jaylen does better than Aaron Gordon a year ago... let alone Gordon in year 3.

But long-term, both of these guys will end up very different players than they are today.  Jaylen is only 19 years old.  Gordon is 1 year older.   It's unfair to compare supremely raw Jaylen to Aaron Gordon after a full season of NBA (let alone two full seasons of NBA).  Five years from now, who knows.   I think both of them have a lot of theoretical potential. 

Again, I'm asking what people are basing their evaluations of Jaylen Brown on.  He wasn't very good in College.  He was just pretty mediocre in Summer League.  All the concerns people had about him shined brightly.  Can't shoot.  Can't finish.  Is it his Summer League performance that people are basing their evaluations on?   You need to be reminded that Aaron Gordon straight-up dominated Summer League a year ago.  Watch video of him and tell me what Jaylen is doing better right now:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g30F54PaBY0   Gordon averaged 22 points, 12 rebounds, a few assists and a couple blocks/steal while shooting 50% and 50% from three.   If we're talkin summer league, there's no comparison.

I'm not talking about Gordon - you specifically compared the Jaylen Brown projections to what Jahlil Okafor put up this year. My comments were in reference to that comparison.

As far as Gordon and Brown, I actually think they are very similar.  Both came out of college at a similar age.  Both were praised primarily for their athleticism, versatility and defensive potential.  Both were considered pretty raw and criticised for their lack of shooting ability.

Gordon is a few inches taller but lacks physical strength for the PF spot, but lacked the shooting to play he SF spot, which made him a bit of a tweener.  Brown is 3" shorter which limits his ability to play long term at the PF spot, but has excellent physical strength and is a better shooter then Gordon was. 

The two are very, very close as prospects.  If I had to choose between the two I'd probably go for Brown for two reasons:

1) He has a tougher and more aggressive attitude, versus Gordon who seems more submissive and laid back.  Brown seems to have more of a stars mentality, while Gordon seems to have more the mentality of a support player

2) Brown seems to have much higher potential as a jump shooter - Brown shot well from three in high school and in the draft workouts so he's shown flashes, and I personally feel he's got a better chance at developing into a quality shooter

That's splitting hairs though to be honest, both are pretty close as far as talent.  I don't see that much point in making the trade - I wouldn't hate it, but wouldn't love it either.  On one hand Gordon may be a better fit because he could play up front with Horford where we currently don't have a starting caliber big - Brown on the other hand plays SF where he'd be stuck behind Crowder.  On the other hand, I question if Gordon is actually good enough to start for us at PF. Is he actually better then the likes of Amir Johnson, Kelly Olynyk or even Jonas Jerebko?  I'm honestly not too sure.

So considering that I don't see any real gain from doing the trade, I'd probably just hold on to what we have to be honest.

Offline Tr1boy

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Trade Crowder , Zizic and future 1st for Gordon.

That would be an embarrassingly bad trade for Boston, and Orlando would be rolling on the floor laughing at Danny Ainge for the next 5 or so years.

Crowder on his own is a much better player then Gordon is - trading him for Gordon straight up would be a bad trade.  Throwing in a prospect and a 1st rounder as well?  Terrible, and no way Danny would even contemplate doing that trade.

Are you serious?

Gordon is a better talent than Crowder

Offline kozlodoev

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Trade Crowder , Zizic and future 1st for Gordon.

That would be an embarrassingly bad trade for Boston, and Orlando would be rolling on the floor laughing at Danny Ainge for the next 5 or so years.

Crowder on his own is a much better player then Gordon is - trading him for Gordon straight up would be a bad trade.  Throwing in a prospect and a 1st rounder as well?  Terrible, and no way Danny would even contemplate doing that trade.

Are you serious?

Gordon is a better talent than Crowder
Yeah, in the same way Gay was a better talent than Battier. And yet, that trade was a win for the Rockets.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Offline Surferdad

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Trade Crowder , Zizic and future 1st for Gordon.

That would be an embarrassingly bad trade for Boston, and Orlando would be rolling on the floor laughing at Danny Ainge for the next 5 or so years.

Crowder on his own is a much better player then Gordon is - trading him for Gordon straight up would be a bad trade.  Throwing in a prospect and a 1st rounder as well?  Terrible, and no way Danny would even contemplate doing that trade.

Are you serious?

Gordon is a better talent than Crowder
triboy, you are nuts.  Gordon is a mediocre defender and shooter.  Agree with crimson stallion on Orlando's response.

Offline Tr1boy

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Trade Crowder , Zizic and future 1st for Gordon.

That would be an embarrassingly bad trade for Boston, and Orlando would be rolling on the floor laughing at Danny Ainge for the next 5 or so years.

Crowder on his own is a much better player then Gordon is - trading him for Gordon straight up would be a bad trade.  Throwing in a prospect and a 1st rounder as well?  Terrible, and no way Danny would even contemplate doing that trade.

Are you serious?

Gordon is a better talent than Crowder
Yeah, in the same way Gay was a better talent than Battier. And yet, that trade was a win for the Rockets.

Battier was better than Gay and Gordon is better than Crowder. Most NBA would take Gordon over Crowder. Even if Crowder overachieved last season. Gordon is 5 years younger and had a nice 2nd year in the league last season. He is only going to get better

Offline Tr1boy

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Trade Crowder , Zizic and future 1st for Gordon.

That would be an embarrassingly bad trade for Boston, and Orlando would be rolling on the floor laughing at Danny Ainge for the next 5 or so years.

Crowder on his own is a much better player then Gordon is - trading him for Gordon straight up would be a bad trade.  Throwing in a prospect and a 1st rounder as well?  Terrible, and no way Danny would even contemplate doing that trade.

Are you serious?

Gordon is a better talent than Crowder
triboy, you are nuts.  Gordon is a mediocre defender and shooter.  Agree with crimson stallion on Orlando's response.

Are you like Eddie20 and dont watch games also?

Just watch the clip below. There is more if you dont believe

http://youtu.be/d3n0lhe01ok