Author Topic: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive  (Read 7105 times)

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Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2016, 09:55:53 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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So yeah, it's only SL and doesn't look represent real NBA play, blah, blah...

However, I still think SL performances give you a pretty good idea of who has the offensive tools, athleticism and physical gifts (size, length) to be successful.  Of course, it is no predictor of long-term career success.  The guys that did well will be productive NBA players or at least have some kind of NBA career because scoring is always valued.

I disagree.

http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2015/statistics/las_vegas/

Only a few of last year's leading scorers look like they'll be NBA rotation players or better.


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Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2016, 10:06:18 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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-#1 drafted Ben Simmons is basically a tall PG that can't shoot, lacks aggression to go to the basket but is a terrific ball handler , passer and rebounder.  Unless he learns how to shoot, I think he will turn out to be another Lamar Odom

#2 drafted Brandon Ingram is ways away physically. He is really thin.  If he can add weight/strength could end up being the best player of the draft. Very well rounded , length advantage and also shows good leadership skills.

-Another player that has looked impressive is Kris Dunn. As advertised looks like a strong 2 way player

-Jaylen Brown looks like a "weapon" on the offensive end much like Andrew Wiggins is for the Wolves.  These guys can score in spurts. Score difficult buckets utilizing world class athleticism.  Come up with some sensational plays. But provide very little in terms of getting teammates involved, poor overall leadership skills.

-Dejounte Murray was a steal for the Spurs.  I was stunned he dropped so hard.  One of the top 5 players of the SL

Underwhelming/inconsistent SL performances from the rest .  Especially Bender, Murray, Hield, Poeltl (top 10 picks) etc.   

Still early to definitely say this was a weak/mediocre draft class but out of the gate not impressive.

It's Summer League. Let's slow down a little bit.
well said. what say we revisit this thread in a year or three.
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Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2016, 11:28:33 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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So yeah, it's only SL and doesn't look represent real NBA play, blah, blah...

However, I still think SL performances give you a pretty good idea of who has the offensive tools, athleticism and physical gifts (size, length) to be successful.  Of course, it is no predictor of long-term career success.  The guys that did well will be productive NBA players or at least have some kind of NBA career because scoring is always valued.

I disagree.

http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2015/statistics/las_vegas/

Only a few of last year's leading scorers look like they'll be NBA rotation players or better.

Agreed. Summer league is a waste of time. Don't pay any attention to it.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2016, 11:44:00 AM »

Offline kraidstar

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So yeah, it's only SL and doesn't look represent real NBA play, blah, blah...

However, I still think SL performances give you a pretty good idea of who has the offensive tools, athleticism and physical gifts (size, length) to be successful.  Of course, it is no predictor of long-term career success.  The guys that did well will be productive NBA players or at least have some kind of NBA career because scoring is always valued.

I disagree.

http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2015/statistics/las_vegas/

Only a few of last year's leading scorers look like they'll be NBA rotation players or better.

Agreed. Summer league is a waste of time. Don't pay any attention to it.

The NBA and its teams don't think it's a waste of time.

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2016, 11:52:57 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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It's a forum for individual players to showcase their games.  Big men rarely see the ball in a position to score.  There are no real plays being run so its just players trying to show people what they do individually with the opposition actually trying to stop them.

A lot of these guys are just trying to get noticed.  So there's definitely a huge difference between this and real NBA basketball - and obviously there's no comparison in terms of the talent level.  However we did learn that a few guys under contract to the Celtics right now may never be NBA players. 

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2016, 12:52:22 PM »

Offline PAOBoston

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So yeah, it's only SL and doesn't look represent real NBA play, blah, blah...

However, I still think SL performances give you a pretty good idea of who has the offensive tools, athleticism and physical gifts (size, length) to be successful.  Of course, it is no predictor of long-term career success.  The guys that did well will be productive NBA players or at least have some kind of NBA career because scoring is always valued.

I disagree.

http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2015/statistics/las_vegas/

Only a few of last year's leading scorers look like they'll be NBA rotation players or better.

Agreed. Summer league is a waste of time. Don't pay any attention to it.

The NBA and its teams don't think it's a waste of time.
I wouldn't call it a waste of time but I also would not put too too much stock innit either. The talent level across summer league is pretty sub standard. It's hard to judge because the team isn't designed to win. It's just an opportunity for the coaching staff to do additional scouting on young players in game situations to asses talent/strengths/weaknesses.

The problem imo though, is since this team is basically thrown together in a week, it hard to be able to put everyone in a position to showcase themselves. They don't have legit plays, haven't developed any cohesion, etc. It's basically street ball in a sense with the majority of players trying to make a name for themselves in order to make a team and get money.

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2016, 01:06:59 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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The only thing you should pay attention to at SL is specific player skills

For example, Rozier looked like he's taken a leap because he was getting to the rim with ease, finishing, creating for others, shooting well and playing good defense. He was a cut above the competition, which you need to see if you think this guy is gonna be a major role player for you.

With Jaylen we saw aggressiveness. An ability to get to the rack at will. Hyper athleticism and a good defensive/rebounding ability. Those are skills that translate to the NBA level. At least of he can do those things in SL, he's got a chance to do it in the big leagues.

That's why Brown scoring 25 points means more than a guy like Jimmer Fredette scoring 30. Jimmer is just gonna hit a bunch of 3's. An NBA skill, sure, but we already knew he could shoot. His other abilities still haven't improved. The stats mean almost nothing, but a guy like Brown showed enough skills that he was just too talented to not get at least 20 points a game.

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2016, 01:51:40 PM »

Offline Kaz

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The season hasn't even started yet; the draft class hasn't even made it onto the race track, nevermind the gate.  Let's see how these guys shape up come December.

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2016, 04:15:04 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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The only thing you should pay attention to at SL is specific player skills

For example, Rozier looked like he's taken a leap because he was getting to the rim with ease, finishing, creating for others, shooting well and playing good defense. He was a cut above the competition, which you need to see if you think this guy is gonna be a major role player for you.

With Jaylen we saw aggressiveness. An ability to get to the rack at will. Hyper athleticism and a good defensive/rebounding ability. Those are skills that translate to the NBA level. At least of he can do those things in SL, he's got a chance to do it in the big leagues.

That's why Brown scoring 25 points means more than a guy like Jimmer Fredette scoring 30. Jimmer is just gonna hit a bunch of 3's. An NBA skill, sure, but we already knew he could shoot. His other abilities still haven't improved. The stats mean almost nothing, but a guy like Brown showed enough skills that he was just too talented to not get at least 20 points a game.
Yes, TP. This is the point I was trying to make this morning. SL is very useful for evaluation of skills. I don't think Ainge and Stevens would be watching every minute if there wasn't some value.

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2016, 04:30:49 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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KO looked like a top 3 prospect in the 2 summer leagues he played.

But he didn't look that great starting out in the NBA

so what about these guys then?  If Hield for example can't exceed in SL play, how is he even going to make much impact at the NBA level?  Bottom line is, its looking like a long road ahead for alot of these prospects .


Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2016, 09:55:48 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I wouldn't put Poeltl down as anywhere near a disappointment.  The guy simply hasn't gotten many shot attempts.  I think in one game he got 3 and in the next contest he got 4 ::).

Buddy Hield, Ingram, and Bender have been awful, and Brown was, as well, until the last two games, I guess, but the guy who has been the most impressive has to be Thon Maker, hands down, imo.  Even Skal has looked great, lol ;D.

Brown was really good his first game, got hurt, took a couple games to get back into it his last three games, not two.

You're right.  My apologies.

Quote
He had a very successful summer league.  You need to learn how to evaluate players better, because your choices tend to go nowhere.

I disagree that he had a very successful summer league.  I guess that we have different ways of looking at players, which is perfectly fine :), but I didn't think that he had a good, let alone very good, first game.  Sure, he got to the line 17 times, which is impressive at first, until you actually watch his performance and realize that, according to a number of people on here, Brown wards off with his arms to help create contact.  That might work in the summer league, but will it translate to NBA games?  I have my doubts, as he's committed many offensive fouls with said move that haven't been called, imo.

In game two, he again failed to make a basket in the first half, and it somehow got worse in his third contest, when he didn't make a field goal at all over the course of the game :o. Understandably, I was very concerned. 

To his credit, he did play better over the last 3 games, but the only things that honestly really impressed me during the totality of his summer league performance were the two fadeaway jumpers coming in the Dallas and Portland games, respectively.  That's it.  Sure, he had some nice steals and his jumper did, at times, look better than it did in college, but he was still a terrible finisher, even on the easiest, from where we sit, haha, of plays, his handle, aside from a few crossovers, was poor, which at least partially explains why he committed 13 turnovers to 8 assists, along with his awful decision making, and in terms of the latter, I'm not just referring to attempted passes to teammates.  Rather, I'm talking about all the times he dribbled with his head down into 2-3 people and it was either 50/50 on whether or not a foul was called or he just coughed up the ball, altogether, imo :-\.

Finally, in terms of how I need to learn to better evaluate players, despite the fact that you somehow prefer James Young over RJ Hunter :o ::), lol ;D) do you have any tips for me? ;D I'm not just looking at box scores and highlights - I watched every game the Celtics played, along with portions of other ones that interested me; and what are these choices of mine that have tended to go nowhere?  I'm sure that that's a long list, lol.  Is this about the undrafted guys, again? 

Quote
In two years, let's compare Brown, Maker, and Skal.  I'm quite sure I know which one will be better, and it's the kid drafted third.  Four years down the line, you can compare him with Dunn too.  Jaylen Brown has Kawhi Leonard written all over him.  He'll shoot over 35% from 3 in his second season, while playing quality defense.  We already know what he can do off the dribble.

Or how about we just compare them now? ;) People have been using the 'let's wait x amount of years before we know blah blah blah' since I've been on this site, and I'm sure that that has always been the case on here, but I find it to be a tired argument, quite honestly.  Two years is such an arbitrary time period, anyway, imo, and besides, I was just talking about who had and hadn't played well in the summer league.  I'm not passing final judgement on any of these guys.  All I'm saying is that as of right now, and since they're all of similar age and played in the same environment for the first time (Maker), I would rank Maker first, Skal second, and Brown third.  Take a look at this 19 point performance by Skal against the Spurs -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojN1FeyXjNU

He showed more in that one game than Brown did over 6, in terms of skill, imo.

Why four years from now as far as comparing Brown to Dunn, btw?  Is it just because that Jaylen will be Kris' current age by then? ::)

I also don't see the comparison to Kawhi.  Is it just because they're both great athletes who are the same height, because Leonard is by far the better defender, shooter, and low post player.  The only thing that Brown has on him (well, if we're going off of his summer league 'exploits' ::), anyway) is getting to the line, and as I stated previously, Jaylen's handle is far from impressive, to me, a few nice crossovers notwithstanding.  I do think that his jumper has improved, but you really think that he'll shoot over 35% from 3 in his sophomore campaign :o?  That's quite an assertion.  May I ask what has led you to make such a claim, because he shot worse from 3 during the summer league, at a .272 clip, than he did in college, where he hit only .294 of his attempts from down town.  Not good.

Listen, I'm really trying to like the guy, lol, but I'm just not there, yet.  Still, I certainly don't want him to fail, and I honestly do hope that I'll be dead wrong about him :). Is that okay with you, lol ;D?

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2016, 09:58:16 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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KO looked like a top 3 prospect in the 2 summer leagues he played.

But he didn't look that great starting out in the NBA

so what about these guys then?  If Hield for example can't exceed in SL play, how is he even going to make much impact at the NBA level?  Bottom line is, its looking like a long road ahead for alot of these prospects .

Interestingly, on Bullets Forever, that's the exact way that many Wizards fans refer to Kelly Oubre, lol ;D.

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2016, 10:46:20 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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There are things you can learn by watching summer league but it does not seem as though it is sufficient to make conclusions about how the draft turned out.  The problem is that most of the higher rated prospects are only 18 or 19 years old.  Except in rare cases, this is too young for a player to compete in the NBA.  Doesn't mean that they won't be fine in a few years but 4 or 5 summer league games doesn't make anything certain.

I like what we saw out of Brown.  He is going to have to continue to get better but I am optimistic he will be fine.

Re: Out of the gate the 2016 draft class is not impressive
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2016, 01:21:26 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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There are things you can learn by watching summer league but it does not seem as though it is sufficient to make conclusions about how the draft turned out.  The problem is that most of the higher rated prospects are only 18 or 19 years old.  Except in rare cases, this is too young for a player to compete in the NBA.  Doesn't mean that they won't be fine in a few years but 4 or 5 summer league games doesn't make anything certain.

I like what we saw out of Brown.  He is going to have to continue to get better but I am optimistic he will be fine.

Brown, ingram, dunn, dejounte murray, ellenson did well

Maker did well for player with no post hs ball experience