Author Topic: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender  (Read 3345 times)

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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2017, 01:15:50 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2017, 01:39:20 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
Gary Trent was getting more minutes than JO in JO's 1st two seasons.  Kelvin Cato (in JO's 3rd season) was getting more minutes than JO.  His 4th year, 37 year old Detlef Schrempf was getting more minutes than him.  let's not rewrite history here.  JO was a very talented, but incredibly raw player when he was starting out, who took a long time to reach his potential, and unlike Bender, he was American, which makes a huge difference.
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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2017, 01:58:17 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
Gary Trent was getting more minutes than JO in JO's 1st two seasons.  Kelvin Cato (in JO's 3rd season) was getting more minutes than JO.  His 4th year, 37 year old Detlef Schrempf was getting more minutes than him.  let's not rewrite history here.  JO was a very talented, but incredibly raw player when he was starting out, who took a long time to reach his potential, and unlike Bender, he was American, which makes a huge difference.
I guess he miraculously reached his potential at the exact time he got traded to Indiana and got thrust into the starting lineup?

Also, let's not compare him to guys who could take minutes at SF.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 02:30:30 PM by kozlodoev »
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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2017, 02:59:54 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I'm not really understanding the point of being adamant about calling "bust" so early.   The other side isn't even guaranteeing he won't be a bust.  They are just advocating wait-and-see.   Because there is no way to say for sure until the NBA gives up on a player.

Speaking for myself is more of a credibility thing..... Before the draft i kept reading irrational posts trying to explain Bender's luck of play time describing the Israeli league as one of the top in the world and and Maccabi as a european powerhouse (while it was possibly the worst Macabi team ever!!). I still remember a ridiculous league ranking where a friendly summer tournament ranked higher than Euroleague !And people thought it was credible!!! Nobody had ever watched Bender play , nobody had ever watched Maccabi and obviously nobody had the slightest idea about the Israeli league but at the time they all were as you put adamantly sure he will be an all star

So ... your motivation for trying to be first on record to call a player a "bust" ... is to attack the credibility of some other posters?

Okay.

So ... what if 5-7 years down the road ... when the player is in his age 25-28 seasons and which is a long way down the road ... the "bust" does become an All-Star?   I mean, that's a long ways into the future.    Or was the claim that seems to have you all bothered specifically that Bender was supposed to be an All-Star during his rookie contract?

Personally, I don't recall anyone being "adamant" that Bender was going to be an All Star, but I suppose I missed it.  Or ignored it as just someone's enthusiasm for a player.
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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2017, 03:03:34 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
Gary Trent was getting more minutes than JO in JO's 1st two seasons.  Kelvin Cato (in JO's 3rd season) was getting more minutes than JO.  His 4th year, 37 year old Detlef Schrempf was getting more minutes than him.  let's not rewrite history here.  JO was a very talented, but incredibly raw player when he was starting out, who took a long time to reach his potential, and unlike Bender, he was American, which makes a huge difference.
I guess he miraculously reached his potential at the exact time he got traded to Indiana and got thrust into the starting lineup?

Also, let's not compare him to guys who could take minutes at SF.
JO started 20 games or so in Portland.  And 37 year old Detlef couldn't play SF.  His first year in Indiana he averaged less than 13 ppg.  It wasn't like he immediately went to Indy and became the 20/10 monster he was in his prime. 
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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2017, 03:10:48 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
Gary Trent was getting more minutes than JO in JO's 1st two seasons.  Kelvin Cato (in JO's 3rd season) was getting more minutes than JO.  His 4th year, 37 year old Detlef Schrempf was getting more minutes than him.  let's not rewrite history here.  JO was a very talented, but incredibly raw player when he was starting out, who took a long time to reach his potential, and unlike Bender, he was American, which makes a huge difference.
I guess he miraculously reached his potential at the exact time he got traded to Indiana and got thrust into the starting lineup?

Also, let's not compare him to guys who could take minutes at SF.

I don't think he was comparing him as a player.  Just noting that minutes at the PF were going to other players on the roster during JO's early years.

Another 'young big' who was a slow developer was Amir Johnson.  He, like Bender, was only 18 when he entered his rookie year.  He never cracked above 124 minutes for a whole season until his 3rd year and never broke past 800 minutes until his 4th year (and he _still_ didn't crack 1000 minutes that season).   Finally, after being traded to TOR in his 5th season, age 22 (the age of a lot of post-NCAA rookies) he played rotation minutes (1453) and became a starter finally the year after that.  Proceeded to be a starter on two different top Eastern teams for the next 7 seasons.

Amir Johnson turned out to be a pretty good player.     It just took a while.
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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2017, 03:50:51 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I don't think he was comparing him as a player.  Just noting that minutes at the PF were going to other players on the roster during JO's early years.

Another 'young big' who was a slow developer was Amir Johnson.  He, like Bender, was only 18 when he entered his rookie year.  He never cracked above 124 minutes for a whole season until his 3rd year and never broke past 800 minutes until his 4th year (and he _still_ didn't crack 1000 minutes that season).   Finally, after being traded to TOR in his 5th season, age 22 (the age of a lot of post-NCAA rookies) he played rotation minutes (1453) and became a starter finally the year after that.  Proceeded to be a starter on two different top Eastern teams for the next 7 seasons.

Amir Johnson turned out to be a pretty good player.     It just took a while.
LOL. Let me rephrase the argument once again. Moranis said Bender is "special". I replied that "special" players will give you at least something very early on, typically first or second season. I did, and will concede again that it's perfectly possible for him to develop into Amir Johnson. Or Kendrick Perkins. Or Gerald Green. Or any other replaceable player.

But if y'all think that a nice little player in the mold of Amir Johnson is good enough return for the 4th pick in the draft... I don't know what to tell you.
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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2017, 04:34:19 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I agree Koz. 

 Guys are saying a player is special because he moves, that is like a notch above saying a guy is special because he has a pulse.

No stats back up this assertion

Wshares 0.1   
Wshares per 48  .018

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html

here is what the Winshares of special players look like:

                                                 Winshares
1.   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*   273.41
2.   Wilt Chamberlain*   247.26
3.   Karl Malone*   234.63
4.   Michael Jordan*   214.02
5.   LeBron James   208.22
6.   John Stockton*   207.70
7.   Tim Duncan   206.38
8.   Dirk Nowitzki   201.64
9.   Kevin Garnett   191.42
10.   Oscar Robertson*   189.21
11.   Shaquille O'Neal*   181.71
12.   David Robinson*   178.67
13.   Charles Barkley*   177.21
14.   Reggie Miller*   174.40
15.   Kobe Bryant   172.74
16.   Moses Malone*   167.07
17.   Bill Russell*   163.51
18.   Hakeem Olajuwon*   162.77
19.   Jerry West*   162.58
20.   Magic Johnson*   155.79


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html

Are we talking a different kind of "special" because that is the only way this makes sense in terms of him being special.

Quote
Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.

Then don't call him special until he earns it!  Problem solved.  Redraft his draft and he is a second rounder.

Your initial statement that he was special was perhaps hyperbole?

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2017, 04:37:25 PM »

Offline footey

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I agree Koz. 

 Guys are saying a player is special because he moves, that is like a notch above saying a guy is special because he has a pulse.

No stats back up this assertion

Wshares 0.1   
Wshares per 48  .018

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html

here is what the Winshares of special players look like:

                                                 Winshares
1.   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*   273.41
2.   Wilt Chamberlain*   247.26
3.   Karl Malone*   234.63
4.   Michael Jordan*   214.02
5.   LeBron James   208.22
6.   John Stockton*   207.70
7.   Tim Duncan   206.38
8.   Dirk Nowitzki   201.64
9.   Kevin Garnett   191.42
10.   Oscar Robertson*   189.21
11.   Shaquille O'Neal*   181.71
12.   David Robinson*   178.67
13.   Charles Barkley*   177.21
14.   Reggie Miller*   174.40
15.   Kobe Bryant   172.74
16.   Moses Malone*   167.07
17.   Bill Russell*   163.51
18.   Hakeem Olajuwon*   162.77
19.   Jerry West*   162.58
20.   Magic Johnson*   155.79


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html

Are we talking a different kind of "special" because that is the only way this makes sense in terms of him being special.

Where is Larry Bird, who was very special, in that list??

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2017, 04:40:26 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't think he was comparing him as a player.  Just noting that minutes at the PF were going to other players on the roster during JO's early years.

Another 'young big' who was a slow developer was Amir Johnson.  He, like Bender, was only 18 when he entered his rookie year.  He never cracked above 124 minutes for a whole season until his 3rd year and never broke past 800 minutes until his 4th year (and he _still_ didn't crack 1000 minutes that season).   Finally, after being traded to TOR in his 5th season, age 22 (the age of a lot of post-NCAA rookies) he played rotation minutes (1453) and became a starter finally the year after that.  Proceeded to be a starter on two different top Eastern teams for the next 7 seasons.

Amir Johnson turned out to be a pretty good player.     It just took a while.
LOL. Let me rephrase the argument once again. Moranis said Bender is "special". I replied that "special" players will give you at least something very early on, typically first or second season. I did, and will concede again that it's perfectly possible for him to develop into Amir Johnson. Or Kendrick Perkins. Or Gerald Green. Or any other replaceable player.

But if y'all think that a nice little player in the mold of Amir Johnson is good enough return for the 4th pick in the draft... I don't know what to tell you.
I never said Bender was special.  You attributed that to me in a post you quoted of mine, but I never said nor implied Bender was special. 

This is the first thing I posted in this thread which you responded to.  "Bender has actually played decent on the whole this season with marked improvement across the board."  Really not sure how you got special out of that.  I then responded to your nonsense to say that very young, very raw players (like JO) take time to develop, especially when they are foreigners.
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Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2017, 01:47:00 PM »

Offline DooVoo

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Well in a 142-116 track meet, with not much defense being played, in 22 minutes Mr. Bender managed to score 0 pts. That is actually pretty impressive and hard to do.

But seriously the Suns are a disaster and the worst defensive team in the league. Their young players are being taught nothing and some even seem to be regressing. Neither Watson or Triano are good coaches. Now they are trying to play Booker at PG cause Tyler Ulis is a 5'9" 150lbs PG who can't shoot and is not a NBA player. Booker basically only has one skill and the Suns won't bother to make him a better player. I doubt players like Jackson or Chriss will ever amount to anything in that environment. So Bender will probably have to bounce around the league if he ever is going to develop into a NBA player.

At least Greg Monroe will be available soon if we want him.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 01:55:33 PM by DooVoo »

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2017, 04:35:16 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Where is Larry Bird, who was very special, in that list??

I put the link there, use it.   Are you really so lazy that you can't? 

I forget some here are from the spoon fed generation.

Bird is 145.8   .203   27th  Right behind PP and Robert Parish.

How about that special Bender stat line last night.

21.   Jerry West*   162.58
22.   Dan Issel*   157.82
23.   Magic Johnson*   155.79
24.   Chris Paul   154.91
25.   Paul Pierce   150.04
26.   Robert Parish*   147.00
27.   Larry Bird*   145.83
28.   Gary Payton*   145.53
29.   Ray Allen   145.08
30.   Dolph Schayes*   142.40
36.   John Havlicek*   131.72
58.   Kevin McHale*   113.04
99.   Sam Jones*   92.29
103.   Bob Cousy*   91.11
123.   Dave Cowens*   86.32
137.   Bill Sharman*   82.76
138.   Dennis Johnson*   82.58
146.   Isiah Thomas*   80.69
150.   Paul Silas   79.93
1157.   Cedric Maxwell   78.51
189.   Al Horford   72.66

It is a goofy stat but it also illustrates how far off base the special claims are folks.

Bender stats from last night:

Time played   22:30   
FGM  0   
FGA 4   
FG% .000
3PM  0   
3PA     2   
3P%  .000
FTA    0
FTM    0   
OREB   1
DREB   2   
TRB          3   
AST          3
STL       0   
BLK          0   
TOV         1   
PF            3
Points   0   
PLUS MINUS -21   

Quote
Well in a 142-116 track meet, with not much defense being played, in 22 minutes Mr. Bender managed to score 0 pts. That is actually pretty impressive and hard to do.

True