Author Topic: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender  (Read 8253 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2017, 08:59:00 AM »

Offline ederson

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2896
  • Tommy Points: 279
Quote
You need to actually watch Bender

Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive.   No matter how you hype it.  It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats.  Your still harping on his potential.

The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis.   I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special.   To me that term is earned not anointed.

Quote
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.

Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?   

The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.   

It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special

It's the same story all over again... the exact same arguments used before the draft to overhype him..... HE played for an awful at the time maccabi and didn't show anything , he plays for the awful Suns against he doesn't show anything

He is just a tall agile guy....

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2017, 09:02:43 AM »

Offline Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47135
  • Tommy Points: 2401
I'll stick with Thon Maker. I like his mentality. His doggishness on defense. His willingness and desire to compete defensively. Against players bigger than himself. As well as against similar size and smaller players. To fight for rebounds. He has that desire to fight for things.

I don't see that with Bender. He has his comfort zone and likes to stay in it. To play PF instead of C. To play against players smaller than him. To play on the perimeter. Failing to fully utilize his size and skills. More passive.

They are both still in early stages of their developments but I'll take my chances on the fighter rather than the non-fighter.

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2017, 09:54:41 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Quote
You need to actually watch Bender

Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive.   No matter how you hype it.  It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats.  Your still harping on his potential.

The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis.   I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special.   To me that term is earned not anointed.

Quote
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.

Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?   

The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.   

It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special

It's the same story all over again... the exact same arguments used before the draft to overhype him..... HE played for an awful at the time maccabi and didn't show anything , he plays for the awful Suns against he doesn't show anything

He is just a tall agile guy....
Bender has actually played decent on the whole this season with marked improvement across the board. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2017, 10:07:01 AM »

Offline ederson

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2896
  • Tommy Points: 279
You could say that but could you describe it as impressive ? Is that what you expect from such a high pick ?


Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2017, 10:46:03 AM »

Online hwangjini_1

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17835
  • Tommy Points: 2661
  • bammokja
i just checked the stats for both maker and bender. i was surprised a bit.

per 36, bender scores more and rebounds better. this year, both are shooting 3 pointers are around 34%. and similar in some other stats as well.

it may take more time to really see whether any separation between their game emerges.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2017, 11:00:16 AM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
Maker seems like the obvious choice - I love the way the guy competes. He was expected to go #1 for years leading up to being drafted, but then he reclassified, people soured on him as the year went by, and it was even thought that he would drop to the late 1st/early 2nd. Bender came out of nowhere, and, while he still has potential, he was never thought to have the same pedigree as Maker.

Good for Milwaukee for taking a chance on him - even though it wasn't really 'taking a chance' when you look at the timeline. Draft hype [and unhype] is very real; people were lauding Fultz as the consensus #1. I think if Philly had another chance they would probably go a different direction - especially after giving up a valuable draft pick to move up.

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2017, 11:06:02 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Quote
You need to actually watch Bender

Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive.   No matter how you hype it.  It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats.  Your still harping on his potential.

The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis.   I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special.   To me that term is earned not anointed.

Quote
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.

Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?   

The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.   

It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special

It's the same story all over again... the exact same arguments used before the draft to overhype him..... HE played for an awful at the time maccabi and didn't show anything , he plays for the awful Suns against he doesn't show anything

He is just a tall agile guy....
Bender has actually played decent on the whole this season with marked improvement across the board.
"Special" players are typically productive early on, regardless of age. Guys who take years to do anything meaningful in the NBA usually end up somewhere between James Young and Gerald Green. Or, to put it in plain English, between "complete bust" and "eminently replaceable".

6 points in 20 minutes while shooting .400 on a HORRIBLE team that has no other goals but force-feeding minutes to young players doesn't really count as "productive" in my book.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2017, 11:06:51 AM »

Offline Eddie20

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8497
  • Tommy Points: 975
Quote
You need to actually watch Bender

Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive.   No matter how you hype it.  It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats.  Your still harping on his potential.

The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis.   I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special.   To me that term is earned not anointed.

Quote
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.

Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?   

The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.   

It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special

Very compelling argument you bring up. Basically acknowledging that you haven't seen him play this season and then completely misinterpreting what I said when I used the word "special".

He's improved this season. He's still only 19. He's a work in process, but dismissing his upside is shortsighted.

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2017, 11:11:55 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
Bender to me is a classic example of a guy who got drafted to the worst possible team.

Whenever I've spent any time watching the Suns it quickly becomes clear his teammates have zero interest in passing to him or involving him in any way.


I think if you're gonna draft a teenager from Eastern Europe you need to have some veteran role players on your team from the same part of the world who can help bring him along.  That's what a smart team would do.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2017, 11:14:31 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Quote
You need to actually watch Bender

Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive.   No matter how you hype it.  It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats.  Your still harping on his potential.

The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis.   I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special.   To me that term is earned not anointed.

Quote
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.

Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?   

The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.   

It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special

It's the same story all over again... the exact same arguments used before the draft to overhype him..... HE played for an awful at the time maccabi and didn't show anything , he plays for the awful Suns against he doesn't show anything

He is just a tall agile guy....
Bender has actually played decent on the whole this season with marked improvement across the board.
"Special" players are typically productive early on. Guys who take years to do anything meaningful in the NBA usually end up somewhere between James Young and Gerald Green.

6 points in 20 minutes while shooting .400 on a HORRIBLE team that has no other goals but force-feeding minutes to young players doesn't really count as "productive" in my book.
Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4. 

Bender doesn't even turn 20 until tomorrow.  Brown turned 20 in October of last year.  Age matters a great deal in these sorts of things.

Bender's FG% is incredibly misleading since he is shooting so many 3's (which he is hitting at 34%).  His 2PT% is 53.8 and his TS% is 54.4.  All three of those are pretty solid shooting numbers and show a very marked improvement over his rookie year.  That is what you would want from someone so raw and young. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2017, 11:33:53 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4. 

Bender doesn't even turn 20 until tomorrow.  Brown turned 20 in October of last year.  Age matters a great deal in these sorts of things.
Sure, and Anthony Davis averaged 13 ppg as a 19-year old rookie and 20 ppg as a 20-year old sophomore. Karl-Anthony Towns averaged 18 ppg as a 20-year old rookie. In fact, most feature big men in the game right now were already productive in their second years even if their rookie campaigns were complete flops.

But yes, he can probably be Kendrick Perkins.  I guess that's special.

edit: Oh, and it's great that you brought up Brown, because Brown actually showed you something last year -- he started 20 games, averaged 10 points and 4 rebounds in 25 mpg, and shot .400 from three over that stretch. As a 20-year old rookie.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:41:39 AM by kozlodoev »
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2017, 11:46:33 AM »

Offline Eddie20

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8497
  • Tommy Points: 975
Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4. 

Bender doesn't even turn 20 until tomorrow.  Brown turned 20 in October of last year.  Age matters a great deal in these sorts of things.
Sure, and Anthony Davis averaged 13 ppg as a 19-year old rookie and 20 ppg as a 20-year old sophomore. Karl-Anthony Towns averaged 18 ppg as a 20-year old rookie. In fact, most feature big men in the game right now were already productive in their second years even if their rookie campaigns were complete flops.

But yes, he can probably be Kendrick Perkins.  I guess that's special.

edit: Oh, and it's great that you brought up Brown, because Brown actually showed you something last year -- he started 20 games, averaged 10 points and 4 rebounds in 25 mpg, and shot .400 from three over that stretch. As a 20-year old rookie.

Koz, you can do better.

I don't think anyone is saying he's going to be all-NBA, but he does have high upside and continues to improve. I'm not sure how anyone, except those that are either completely stubborn or haven't bothered to watch him play, can be so dismissive and think he's a bust. It's an odd stance to take for no particular reason.

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2017, 12:18:10 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
One side:  Bender is still younger than most rookies and has promise that may turn out well down the road.  See signs of progress.

Other side:  He hasn't produced jack and sucks.  'Calling it now.

I'm not really understanding the point of being adamant about calling "bust" so early.   The other side isn't even guaranteeing he won't be a bust.  They are just advocating wait-and-see.   Because there is no way to say for sure until the NBA gives up on a player.

Is there some prize being distributed if you later get to claim you were the first one to call a player a bust and it turns out to be true?    What is there to gain here?

I still have vivid memories of posters on this forum posting images equating (then rookie) Avery Bradley to a pile of steaming hot garbage.     

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2017, 12:45:17 PM »

Offline ederson

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2896
  • Tommy Points: 279
Fan fact .... Tatum is 6 months younger. 


Quote
I'm not really understanding the point of being adamant about calling "bust" so early.   The other side isn't even guaranteeing he won't be a bust.  They are just advocating wait-and-see.   Because there is no way to say for sure until the NBA gives up on a player.

Speaking for myself is more of a credibility thing..... Before the draft i kept reading irrational posts trying to explain Bender's luck of play time describing the Israeli league as one of the top in the world and and Maccabi as a european powerhouse (while it was possibly the worst Macabi team ever!!). I still remember a ridiculous league ranking where a friendly summer tournament ranked higher than Euroleague !And people thought it was credible!!! Nobody had ever watched Bender play , nobody had ever watched Maccabi and obviously nobody had the slightest idea about the Israeli league but at the time they all were as you put adamantly sure he will be an all star


Re: Thon Maker vs Dragan Bender
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2017, 12:59:49 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league.  Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4. 

Bender doesn't even turn 20 until tomorrow.  Brown turned 20 in October of last year.  Age matters a great deal in these sorts of things.
Sure, and Anthony Davis averaged 13 ppg as a 19-year old rookie and 20 ppg as a 20-year old sophomore. Karl-Anthony Towns averaged 18 ppg as a 20-year old rookie. In fact, most feature big men in the game right now were already productive in their second years even if their rookie campaigns were complete flops.

But yes, he can probably be Kendrick Perkins.  I guess that's special.

edit: Oh, and it's great that you brought up Brown, because Brown actually showed you something last year -- he started 20 games, averaged 10 points and 4 rebounds in 25 mpg, and shot .400 from three over that stretch. As a 20-year old rookie.

Koz, you can do better.

I don't think anyone is saying he's going to be all-NBA, but he does have high upside and continues to improve. I'm not sure how anyone, except those that are either completely stubborn or haven't bothered to watch him play, can be so dismissive and think he's a bust. It's an odd stance to take for no particular reason.
But Moranis just did. He kept yapping about how Bender is "special". I firmly believe that if you aren't showing  me anything by year 2, you're almost certainly not going to be special. Didn't we have all these conversation when James Young was still around?

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."