Mannix on CSNNE/Toucher & Rich: Speculating Westbrook will be traded

[LGC88]

I have a feeling 76ers are going to make a move on this.

That would be one of the dumbest trades then, because Westbrook is definitely not going to re-sign there.

"The process"

[LarBrd33]

There was a poll on twitter that Jeff retweeted from some Celtics media:

Smart, Brown, and both 2017/2018 BKN picks for Westbrook yes/no?

 

potentially horrible trade.  I really don't think Westbrook would be a good fit here.  His stats are inflated for a number of reasons.  Even durant hated playing with him.

Horrible or not, I think that's about what it would take.

Then Westbrook is staying in OKC. No one is trading 2 lottery pick talents and 2 future unprotected lottery likely picks for a rental.

If we want to just rent a player for a year, we're better off giving D-Wade a max contract.   He makes about as much sense with this roster as the overrated Russell Westbrook.

[Monkhouse]

There was a poll on twitter that Jeff retweeted from some Celtics media:

Smart, Brown, and both 2017/2018 BKN picks for Westbrook yes/no?

 

potentially horrible trade.  I really don't think Westbrook would be a good fit here.  His stats are inflated for a number of reasons.  Even durant hated playing with him.

Horrible or not, I think that's about what it would take.

Then Westbrook is staying in OKC. No one is trading 2 lottery pick talents and 2 future unprotected lottery likely picks for a rental.

If we want to just rent a player for a year, we're better off giving D-Wade a max contract.   He makes about as much sense with this roster as the overrated Russell Westbrook.

Haven't really liked Westbrook that much, but he's still a star in this league. He averaged 39.5% in lieu of 26.7 PPG, 11.3 APG, 3.7 SPG, 7.0 RPG, and 4.4 TPG against the GSW, one of the most strongest defenses in the league, next to the Spurs.

POSTSEASON STATS   MIN   FGM-FGA   FG%   3PM-3PA   3P%   FTM-FTA   FT%   REB   AST   BLK   STL   PF   TO   PTS
Averages   37.4   8.8-21.8   .405   1.9-5.8   .324   6.4-7.8   .829   6.9   11.0   0.1   2.6   2.4   4.3   26.0
Totals   674   159-393   .405   34-105   .324   116-140   .829   124   198   2   46   43   78   468

While he's never been the most efficient player, he still puts up numbers. And you can't say he's stat padding, when he's always been one of the most athletic players at gobbling up the glass. Hate him all you want, but you can't tell me he isn't and wouldn't be the best player on our team.

[CoachBo]

1. These guys literally know nothing, Jon Snow.

2. OKC isn't going to trade Westbrook. They don't have a pedigree like the Celtics. They need butts in seats, and draft picks and mediocre (next to Westbrook) players are not going to keep people coming to games. The reason this franchise has thrived is KD and Westbrook.

3. They will hold on to hope that they can bring in someone else that helps him consider re-signing, but they will fail and lose him for nothing.

They've already said that they're going to listen to offers for him, i.e. they're going to trade him for the best package that has a reasonable shot of keeping him next year.

I would bet you a million TP's that they trade him. Presti would get fired if he let two MVP-type talents walk out on him in two consecutive summers without getting anything from them, especially with Westbrook who is almost guaranteed to leave for a bigger market somewhere.

I have no doubt they are hearing offers. I have no doubt that in earnest, Presti doesn't want (and probably cant afford) to lose another big fish for nothing. But, if you are Presti, how do you sell your fans on the slop that you are going to get back knowing that any team that trades for this fella is going to be worried that he bolts after year 1 (which is likely, unless its the Lakers or Clippers)? If you are another (non LA) team, what the hell can you really offer? Presti is going to Danny Ainge the **** out of Westbrook, push for top dollar, and maybe ultimately deal him for two stale cookies and lottery spin, but I think the fans are disappointed either way.

You're not going to get slop back. He's an MVP-level talent, and even with his contract situation, he's going to bring you two or more excellent picks or prospects back. The going rate is going to be something like Russell and Ingram or Smart and Brown or Brown and a Brooklyn pick, etc. That gives them an excellent core to build around their next team, especially after their acquiring of Oladipo and Sabonis.

And if Westbrook tells you he's interested in an extension, you make the deal and you sell him on Boston during his year there. Period. If he's non-committal, you don't. You don't blow away a top 10 talent in the league for a marginally successful young player and a draft pick without talking to them first.

Calling this a one-year rental without talking to the player and his agent first is extremely short-sighted. A lot of big trades across all sports would never happen with this kind of myopic viewpoint - Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds come to mind immediately in baseball.

And life will go on without Smart and/or Brown. I promise.

[LarBrd33]

There was a poll on twitter that Jeff retweeted from some Celtics media:

Smart, Brown, and both 2017/2018 BKN picks for Westbrook yes/no?

 

potentially horrible trade.  I really don't think Westbrook would be a good fit here.  His stats are inflated for a number of reasons.  Even durant hated playing with him.

Horrible or not, I think that's about what it would take.

Then Westbrook is staying in OKC. No one is trading 2 lottery pick talents and 2 future unprotected lottery likely picks for a rental.

If we want to just rent a player for a year, we're better off giving D-Wade a max contract.   He makes about as much sense with this roster as the overrated Russell Westbrook.

Haven't really liked Westbrook that much, but he's still a star in this league. He averaged 39.5% in lieu of 26.7 PPG, 11.3 APG, 3.7 SPG, 7.0 RPG, and 4.4 TPG against the GSW, one of the most strongest defenses in the league, next to the Spurs.

POSTSEASON STATS   MIN   FGM-FGA   FG%   3PM-3PA   3P%   FTM-FTA   FT%   REB   AST   BLK   STL   PF   TO   PTS
Averages   37.4   8.8-21.8   .405   1.9-5.8   .324   6.4-7.8   .829   6.9   11.0   0.1   2.6   2.4   4.3   26.0
Totals   674   159-393   .405   34-105   .324   116-140   .829   124   198   2   46   43   78   468

While he's never been the most efficient player, he still puts up numbers. And you can't say he's stat padding, when he's always been one of the most athletic players at gobbling up the glass. Hate him all you want, but you can't tell me he isn't and wouldn't be the best player on our team.

Interesting question - if Thomas controlled the ball as much as Westbrook, played next to Kevin Durant, and took as many shots as Westbrook did, how would his stats look in comparison?

Westbrook aiight.  There's a reason Durant got the heck away from him, tho.

[snively]

There was a poll on twitter that Jeff retweeted from some Celtics media:

Smart, Brown, and both 2017/2018 BKN picks for Westbrook yes/no?

 

potentially horrible trade.  I really don't think Westbrook would be a good fit here.  His stats are inflated for a number of reasons.  Even durant hated playing with him.

Horrible or not, I think that's about what it would take.

Then Westbrook is staying in OKC. No one is trading 2 lottery pick talents and 2 future unprotected lottery likely picks for a rental.

As an expiring, Kevin Love got #1 Wiggins, the previous year's #1 in Bennett and the pick that brought Thad Young. And Love had never made the playoffs or an All-NBA first team.

Just this offseason, Utah was offered Bledsoe and a lotto pick for expiring non-All-Star Gordon Hayward and turned it down.

The trade market for anything resembling a star in his prime, even an expiring one, is pretty extreme right now.

[Monkhouse]

There was a poll on twitter that Jeff retweeted from some Celtics media:

Smart, Brown, and both 2017/2018 BKN picks for Westbrook yes/no?

 

potentially horrible trade.  I really don't think Westbrook would be a good fit here.  His stats are inflated for a number of reasons.  Even durant hated playing with him.

Horrible or not, I think that's about what it would take.

Then Westbrook is staying in OKC. No one is trading 2 lottery pick talents and 2 future unprotected lottery likely picks for a rental.

If we want to just rent a player for a year, we're better off giving D-Wade a max contract.   He makes about as much sense with this roster as the overrated Russell Westbrook.

Haven't really liked Westbrook that much, but he's still a star in this league. He averaged 39.5% in lieu of 26.7 PPG, 11.3 APG, 3.7 SPG, 7.0 RPG, and 4.4 TPG against the GSW, one of the most strongest defenses in the league, next to the Spurs.

POSTSEASON STATS   MIN   FGM-FGA   FG%   3PM-3PA   3P%   FTM-FTA   FT%   REB   AST   BLK   STL   PF   TO   PTS
Averages   37.4   8.8-21.8   .405   1.9-5.8   .324   6.4-7.8   .829   6.9   11.0   0.1   2.6   2.4   4.3   26.0
Totals   674   159-393   .405   34-105   .324   116-140   .829   124   198   2   46   43   78   468

While he's never been the most efficient player, he still puts up numbers. And you can't say he's stat padding, when he's always been one of the most athletic players at gobbling up the glass. Hate him all you want, but you can't tell me he isn't and wouldn't be the best player on our team.

Interesting question - if Thomas controlled the ball as much as Westbrook, played next to Kevin Durant, and took as many shots as Westbrook did, how would his stats look in comparison?

Westbrook aiight.  There's a reason Durant got the heck away from him, tho.

Pretty sure his assists and rebounding wouldn't be anywhere near close to what Westbrook has put up, I'll bet money on that lol.

I mean if the Spurs vs OKC series has shown us anything, that is... No one can really guard Westbrook. The only person that can beat Westbrook...? Is Westbrook... Lol.

[LarBrd33]

There was a poll on twitter that Jeff retweeted from some Celtics media:

Smart, Brown, and both 2017/2018 BKN picks for Westbrook yes/no?

 

potentially horrible trade.  I really don't think Westbrook would be a good fit here.  His stats are inflated for a number of reasons.  Even durant hated playing with him.

Horrible or not, I think that's about what it would take.

Then Westbrook is staying in OKC. No one is trading 2 lottery pick talents and 2 future unprotected lottery likely picks for a rental.

If we want to just rent a player for a year, we're better off giving D-Wade a max contract.   He makes about as much sense with this roster as the overrated Russell Westbrook.

Haven't really liked Westbrook that much, but he's still a star in this league. He averaged 39.5% in lieu of 26.7 PPG, 11.3 APG, 3.7 SPG, 7.0 RPG, and 4.4 TPG against the GSW, one of the most strongest defenses in the league, next to the Spurs.

POSTSEASON STATS   MIN   FGM-FGA   FG%   3PM-3PA   3P%   FTM-FTA   FT%   REB   AST   BLK   STL   PF   TO   PTS
Averages   37.4   8.8-21.8   .405   1.9-5.8   .324   6.4-7.8   .829   6.9   11.0   0.1   2.6   2.4   4.3   26.0
Totals   674   159-393   .405   34-105   .324   116-140   .829   124   198   2   46   43   78   468

While he's never been the most efficient player, he still puts up numbers. And you can't say he's stat padding, when he's always been one of the most athletic players at gobbling up the glass. Hate him all you want, but you can't tell me he isn't and wouldn't be the best player on our team.

Interesting question - if Thomas controlled the ball as much as Westbrook, played next to Kevin Durant, and took as many shots as Westbrook did, how would his stats look in comparison?

Westbrook aiight.  There's a reason Durant got the heck away from him, tho.

Pretty sure his assists and rebounding wouldn't be anywhere near close to what Westbrook has put up, I'll bet money on that lol.

I mean if the Spurs vs OKC series has shown us anything, that is... No one can really guard Westbrook. The only person that can beat Westbrook...? Is Westbrook... Lol.

Pretty sure Westbrook's stats wouldn't look like that in Boston's offense if the team was trying to win games.  We don't need a ball-dominating point guard getting lots of assists.  Been through that with Rondo.  We don't need a guard bricking 29% from down town ... we got plenty of bad shooters on this team as-is.   We were top 5 last year in PPG.  What this team really needs is a guy who can consistently knock down shots and hit them down the stretch.  That's not Westbrook. 

With the way this team is structured right now and the type of offense they run (not to mention the edge they get from their elite defensive guards), I think an argument could be made that the team would be better off, as currently constructed, adding Khris Middleton.

That's not to say Middleton is better than Westbrook.  I'm just looking at this team's strengths and weaknesses and considering how Middleton or Westbrook would fit.  I think an argument could be made that adding Middleton to this group as-is does more than adding Westbrook.   Of course, this doesn't at all factor in what kind of prices we'd have to pay for either player or what kind of follow-up moves the team could do to address balance.  I'm just saying, take this roster as-is and add one guy - I think MIddleton might help more.

[mmmmm]

1. These guys literally know nothing, Jon Snow.

2. OKC isn't going to trade Westbrook. They don't have a pedigree like the Celtics. They need butts in seats, and draft picks and mediocre (next to Westbrook) players are not going to keep people coming to games. The reason this franchise has thrived is KD and Westbrook.

3. They will hold on to hope that they can bring in someone else that helps him consider re-signing, but they will fail and lose him for nothing.

They've already said that they're going to listen to offers for him, i.e. they're going to trade him for the best package that has a reasonable shot of keeping him next year.

I would bet you a million TP's that they trade him. Presti would get fired if he let two MVP-type talents walk out on him in two consecutive summers without getting anything from them, especially with Westbrook who is almost guaranteed to leave for a bigger market somewhere.

I have no doubt they are hearing offers. I have no doubt that in earnest, Presti doesn't want (and probably cant afford) to lose another big fish for nothing. But, if you are Presti, how do you sell your fans on the slop that you are going to get back knowing that any team that trades for this fella is going to be worried that he bolts after year 1 (which is likely, unless its the Lakers or Clippers)? If you are another (non LA) team, what the hell can you really offer? Presti is going to Danny Ainge the **** out of Westbrook, push for top dollar, and maybe ultimately deal him for two stale cookies and lottery spin, but I think the fans are disappointed either way.

You're not going to get slop back. He's an MVP-level talent, and even with his contract situation, he's going to bring you two or more excellent picks or prospects back. The going rate is going to be something like Russell and Ingram or Smart and Brown or Brown and a Brooklyn pick, etc. That gives them an excellent core to build around their next team, especially after their acquiring of Oladipo and Sabonis.

That just made me gag and puke up a little.

If some other idiot GM wants to give up that much for a one-year rental of Westbrook, more power to them.  I'm sure there might be some GM somewhere that is as dumb as a freaking post and who might do that.

I hope to god Danny is not that guy.  I don't believe he is.

[LarBrd33]

1. These guys literally know nothing, Jon Snow.

2. OKC isn't going to trade Westbrook. They don't have a pedigree like the Celtics. They need butts in seats, and draft picks and mediocre (next to Westbrook) players are not going to keep people coming to games. The reason this franchise has thrived is KD and Westbrook.

3. They will hold on to hope that they can bring in someone else that helps him consider re-signing, but they will fail and lose him for nothing.

They've already said that they're going to listen to offers for him, i.e. they're going to trade him for the best package that has a reasonable shot of keeping him next year.

I would bet you a million TP's that they trade him. Presti would get fired if he let two MVP-type talents walk out on him in two consecutive summers without getting anything from them, especially with Westbrook who is almost guaranteed to leave for a bigger market somewhere.

I have no doubt they are hearing offers. I have no doubt that in earnest, Presti doesn't want (and probably cant afford) to lose another big fish for nothing. But, if you are Presti, how do you sell your fans on the slop that you are going to get back knowing that any team that trades for this fella is going to be worried that he bolts after year 1 (which is likely, unless its the Lakers or Clippers)? If you are another (non LA) team, what the hell can you really offer? Presti is going to Danny Ainge the **** out of Westbrook, push for top dollar, and maybe ultimately deal him for two stale cookies and lottery spin, but I think the fans are disappointed either way.

You're not going to get slop back. He's an MVP-level talent, and even with his contract situation, he's going to bring you two or more excellent picks or prospects back. The going rate is going to be something like Russell and Ingram or Smart and Brown or Brown and a Brooklyn pick, etc. That gives them an excellent core to build around their next team, especially after their acquiring of Oladipo and Sabonis.

That just made me gag and puke up a little.

If some other idiot GM wants to give up that much for a one-year rental of Westbrook, more power to them.  I'm sure there might be some GM somewhere that is as dumb as a freaking post and who might do that.

I hope to god Danny is not that guy.  I don't believe he is.

I think Danny is smart enough to realize Westbrook isn't going to help this team as much as fans think... but then again, he almost traded for Iverson a year or so before we landed KG and Ray.

[jpotter33]

1. These guys literally know nothing, Jon Snow.

2. OKC isn't going to trade Westbrook. They don't have a pedigree like the Celtics. They need butts in seats, and draft picks and mediocre (next to Westbrook) players are not going to keep people coming to games. The reason this franchise has thrived is KD and Westbrook.

3. They will hold on to hope that they can bring in someone else that helps him consider re-signing, but they will fail and lose him for nothing.

They've already said that they're going to listen to offers for him, i.e. they're going to trade him for the best package that has a reasonable shot of keeping him next year.

I would bet you a million TP's that they trade him. Presti would get fired if he let two MVP-type talents walk out on him in two consecutive summers without getting anything from them, especially with Westbrook who is almost guaranteed to leave for a bigger market somewhere.

I have no doubt they are hearing offers. I have no doubt that in earnest, Presti doesn't want (and probably cant afford) to lose another big fish for nothing. But, if you are Presti, how do you sell your fans on the slop that you are going to get back knowing that any team that trades for this fella is going to be worried that he bolts after year 1 (which is likely, unless its the Lakers or Clippers)? If you are another (non LA) team, what the hell can you really offer? Presti is going to Danny Ainge the **** out of Westbrook, push for top dollar, and maybe ultimately deal him for two stale cookies and lottery spin, but I think the fans are disappointed either way.

You're not going to get slop back. He's an MVP-level talent, and even with his contract situation, he's going to bring you two or more excellent picks or prospects back. The going rate is going to be something like Russell and Ingram or Smart and Brown or Brown and a Brooklyn pick, etc. That gives them an excellent core to build around their next team, especially after their acquiring of Oladipo and Sabonis.

That just made me gag and puke up a little.

If some other idiot GM wants to give up that much for a one-year rental of Westbrook, more power to them.  I'm sure there might be some GM somewhere that is as dumb as a freaking post and who might do that.

I hope to god Danny is not that guy.  I don't believe he is.

I mean, that's assuming that Westbrook will leave next summer. I don't think any GM is going to trade for Westbrook without thinking that they have at least a decent shot of re-signing him.

Surely you don't agree that if they ended up keeping Westbrook long term that a Smart and Brown trade for him is an overpay. I'm Smart's biggest defender on here, but you trade that package every day for an MVP-type talent in Westbrook.

[mmmmm]

1. These guys literally know nothing, Jon Snow.

2. OKC isn't going to trade Westbrook. They don't have a pedigree like the Celtics. They need butts in seats, and draft picks and mediocre (next to Westbrook) players are not going to keep people coming to games. The reason this franchise has thrived is KD and Westbrook.

3. They will hold on to hope that they can bring in someone else that helps him consider re-signing, but they will fail and lose him for nothing.

They've already said that they're going to listen to offers for him, i.e. they're going to trade him for the best package that has a reasonable shot of keeping him next year.

I would bet you a million TP's that they trade him. Presti would get fired if he let two MVP-type talents walk out on him in two consecutive summers without getting anything from them, especially with Westbrook who is almost guaranteed to leave for a bigger market somewhere.

I have no doubt they are hearing offers. I have no doubt that in earnest, Presti doesn't want (and probably cant afford) to lose another big fish for nothing. But, if you are Presti, how do you sell your fans on the slop that you are going to get back knowing that any team that trades for this fella is going to be worried that he bolts after year 1 (which is likely, unless its the Lakers or Clippers)? If you are another (non LA) team, what the hell can you really offer? Presti is going to Danny Ainge the **** out of Westbrook, push for top dollar, and maybe ultimately deal him for two stale cookies and lottery spin, but I think the fans are disappointed either way.

You're not going to get slop back. He's an MVP-level talent, and even with his contract situation, he's going to bring you two or more excellent picks or prospects back. The going rate is going to be something like Russell and Ingram or Smart and Brown or Brown and a Brooklyn pick, etc. That gives them an excellent core to build around their next team, especially after their acquiring of Oladipo and Sabonis.

That just made me gag and puke up a little.

If some other idiot GM wants to give up that much for a one-year rental of Westbrook, more power to them.  I'm sure there might be some GM somewhere that is as dumb as a freaking post and who might do that.

I hope to god Danny is not that guy.  I don't believe he is.

I mean, that's assuming that Westbrook will leave next summer. I don't think any GM is going to trade for Westbrook without thinking that they have at least a decent shot of re-signing him.

Surely you don't agree that if they ended up keeping Westbrook long term that a Smart and Brown trade for him is an overpay. I'm Smart's biggest defender on here, but you trade that package every day for an MVP-type talent in Westbrook.

It's just not ever going to happen.  And it isn't about how 'great' Westbrook is or not.

First of all, as has been pointed out a million times.  An extension is not going to happen.  So you are left with asking about a promise to sign an contract after he becomes a free agent.  And unless you are an LA team, he isn't likely to give you that promise.   What's in it for Westbrook to give you that promise is Bird Rights contract terms, should he honor it, but while that's worth a lot (several million), it pales compared to the overall jump in package he's going to get as a FA anyway, whether he signs with Bird Rights or not (tens and tens of millions) and the simple freedom, for the first time in an NBA players career, to decide where he is going to live and work.   He might not give that promise to even an LA team, but they at least have to feel like they have a chance to get a positive answer, given how vested RW is in LA on a personal level.

I expect the chance that Westbrook gives a positive answer to the question to Boston to be pretty close to zero, which is the chance Boston will be trading such a package for Westbrook so hypothesizing whether a package of Smart+Brown+salary matching (Amir) would be worth one year of Westbrook plus the chance to pay him a giant max contract is just speculative fantasy.  He's also an upgrade at the wrong position, forcing the need to then move IT to get an upgrade somewhere else.  Again, it doesn't matter how good you think he might be, he just doesn't line up as a good trade target for Boston at all.   I'm a big advocate that you should mostly ignore needs and fit when it comes to drafting, but trades and FA signings are all about needs and fit.  Your trade is disruptive on many levels.  It would make more sense to exchange a package around IT for a package around RW.  But that probably ends up just as disruptive to make work.

Which leaves the consideration of whether Russell + Ingram might be worth it for LAL.  LAL might actually be able to secure a promise to sign a long-term contract.  And it's true that trading for RW now would secure his Bird Rights for LAL, enabling him to sign a 5-year Bird Rights contract, marrying them together for years to come.  And he's not disruptive to their roster.   But if I were the Lakers, if I really believe that Westbrook would want to sign there, I don't do that trade.  Why give up Ingram when you don't have to?  Adding Westbrook _now_ doesn't do the Lakers one bit of good.  All it would accomplish to trade for him now would be to make them have a somewhat better W/L record.  Which would climb them out of being one of the 3 worst teams.  Which would put their 2017 draft pick, which is top-3 protected but otherwise belongs to Philly at risk.

If I were the Lakers, I wait.  I keep Ingram & Russell for now.  I tank one more year, protecting my pick.  I then use all my cap space to buy Westbrook next summer, plus whatever other good free agents I can buy and I trade some of my many young players that I've accumulated (i.e., Russell, Randle, etc.) for a decent veteran or two and immediately at least climb back to 'respectable', denying Philly a top pick.

So, again, I don't see why it would be in LA's interest to trade your proposed package for him either.

Whether you think Westbrook as  a basketball player has more 'value' than either package is irrelevant and not worth arguing over.  They are both bad trades for the receiving teams.

[Dino Pitino]

Surely you don't agree that if they ended up keeping Westbrook long term that a Smart and Brown trade for him is an overpay. I'm Smart's biggest defender on here, but you trade that package every day for an MVP-type talent in Westbrook.

Not an overpay, but maybe a lateral move. We won't know for another year or two. Meanwhile, that leaves us with Isaiah, Bradley, and Westbrook. How do you make that work?

Anyway, it's moot. As BudweiserCeltic explained, there's absolutely no way that Westbrook will sign an extension, and in this day and age there's no agreement gentlemanly enough to make it worth the risk of losing Smart and Brown forever for a rwntal. I would vomit.

[jpotter33]

1. These guys literally know nothing, Jon Snow.

2. OKC isn't going to trade Westbrook. They don't have a pedigree like the Celtics. They need butts in seats, and draft picks and mediocre (next to Westbrook) players are not going to keep people coming to games. The reason this franchise has thrived is KD and Westbrook.

3. They will hold on to hope that they can bring in someone else that helps him consider re-signing, but they will fail and lose him for nothing.

They've already said that they're going to listen to offers for him, i.e. they're going to trade him for the best package that has a reasonable shot of keeping him next year.

I would bet you a million TP's that they trade him. Presti would get fired if he let two MVP-type talents walk out on him in two consecutive summers without getting anything from them, especially with Westbrook who is almost guaranteed to leave for a bigger market somewhere.

I have no doubt they are hearing offers. I have no doubt that in earnest, Presti doesn't want (and probably cant afford) to lose another big fish for nothing. But, if you are Presti, how do you sell your fans on the slop that you are going to get back knowing that any team that trades for this fella is going to be worried that he bolts after year 1 (which is likely, unless its the Lakers or Clippers)? If you are another (non LA) team, what the hell can you really offer? Presti is going to Danny Ainge the **** out of Westbrook, push for top dollar, and maybe ultimately deal him for two stale cookies and lottery spin, but I think the fans are disappointed either way.

You're not going to get slop back. He's an MVP-level talent, and even with his contract situation, he's going to bring you two or more excellent picks or prospects back. The going rate is going to be something like Russell and Ingram or Smart and Brown or Brown and a Brooklyn pick, etc. That gives them an excellent core to build around their next team, especially after their acquiring of Oladipo and Sabonis.

That just made me gag and puke up a little.

If some other idiot GM wants to give up that much for a one-year rental of Westbrook, more power to them.  I'm sure there might be some GM somewhere that is as dumb as a freaking post and who might do that.

I hope to god Danny is not that guy.  I don't believe he is.

I mean, that's assuming that Westbrook will leave next summer. I don't think any GM is going to trade for Westbrook without thinking that they have at least a decent shot of re-signing him.

Surely you don't agree that if they ended up keeping Westbrook long term that a Smart and Brown trade for him is an overpay. I'm Smart's biggest defender on here, but you trade that package every day for an MVP-type talent in Westbrook.

It's just not ever going to happen.  And it isn't about how 'great' Westbrook is or not.

First of all, as has been pointed out a million times.  An extension is not going to happen.  So you are left with asking about a promise to sign an contract after he becomes a free agent.  And unless you are an LA team, he isn't likely to give you that promise.   What's in it for Westbrook to give you that promise is Bird Rights contract terms, should he honor it, but while that's worth a lot (several million), it pales compared to the overall jump in package he's going to get as a FA anyway, whether he signs with Bird Rights or not (tens and tens of millions) and the simple freedom, for the first time in an NBA players career, to decide where he is going to live and work.   He might not give that promise to even an LA team, but they at least have to feel like they have a chance to get a positive answer, given how vested RW is in LA on a personal level.

I expect the chance that Westbrook gives a positive answer to the question to Boston to be pretty close to zero, which is the chance Boston will be trading such a package for Westbrook so hypothesizing whether a package of Smart+Brown+salary matching (Amir) would be worth one year of Westbrook plus the chance to pay him a giant max contract is just speculative fantasy.  He's also an upgrade at the wrong position, forcing the need to then move IT to get an upgrade somewhere else.  Again, it doesn't matter how good you think he might be, he just doesn't line up as a good trade target for Boston at all.   I'm a big advocate that you should mostly ignore needs and fit when it comes to drafting, but trades and FA signings are all about needs and fit.  Your trade is disruptive on many levels.  It would make more sense to exchange a package around IT for a package around RW.  But that probably ends up just as disruptive to make work.

Which leaves the consideration of whether Russell + Ingram might be worth it for LAL.  LAL might actually be able to secure a promise to sign a long-term contract.  And it's true that trading for RW now would secure his Bird Rights for LAL, enabling him to sign a 5-year Bird Rights contract, marrying them together for years to come.  And he's not disruptive to their roster.   But if I were the Lakers, if I really believe that Westbrook would want to sign there, I don't do that trade.  Why give up Ingram when you don't have to?  Adding Westbrook _now_ doesn't do the Lakers one bit of good.  All it would accomplish to trade for him now would be to make them have a somewhat better W/L record.  Which would climb them out of being one of the 3 worst teams.  Which would put their 2017 draft pick, which is top-3 protected but otherwise belongs to Philly at risk.

If I were the Lakers, I wait.  I keep Ingram & Russell for now.  I tank one more year, protecting my pick.  I then use all my cap space to buy Westbrook next summer, plus whatever other good free agents I can buy and I trade some of my many young players that I've accumulated (i.e., Russell, Randle, etc.) for a decent veteran or two and immediately at least climb back to 'respectable', denying Philly a top pick.

So, again, I don't see why it would be in LA's interest to trade your proposed package for him either.

Whether you think Westbrook as  a basketball player has more 'value' than either package is irrelevant and not worth arguing over.  They are both bad trades for the receiving teams.

They're only bad trades if he would leave. You can't argue otherwise until you know if he stays or not.

And though I thought he was almost a certainty to go to LA pre-free agency, they ruined their cap space for next year with their contracts for Mozgov, Deng, and Clarkson. They no longer have room for two (or even three) max contracts next year, which was the major drawing point of Westbrook going there, in addition to being from there. He could certainly go to the Clips, though their future is also questionable at the moment. I think he'll seriously consider other places next summer in addition to LA, though I'm not saying Boston would in that group.

So I do think a trade for Westbrook to get his Bird Rights would go a long way in getting him there. He'd have multiple reasons to go there then, even if they're not going to be a title contender. Granted, I wouldn't give both Ingram AND Russell for him. I'd probably give up both Russell and Randle or even Russell and a future pick, though.

But as it stands after their crazy contracts they gave out this summer, I absolutely don't think it's a lock that he goes to the Lakers. If they would've kept their cap space open for next summer, I think it would've been a lock since he would've essentially been able to build that team around him before signing.

[mmmmm]

1. These guys literally know nothing, Jon Snow.

2. OKC isn't going to trade Westbrook. They don't have a pedigree like the Celtics. They need butts in seats, and draft picks and mediocre (next to Westbrook) players are not going to keep people coming to games. The reason this franchise has thrived is KD and Westbrook.

3. They will hold on to hope that they can bring in someone else that helps him consider re-signing, but they will fail and lose him for nothing.

They've already said that they're going to listen to offers for him, i.e. they're going to trade him for the best package that has a reasonable shot of keeping him next year.

I would bet you a million TP's that they trade him. Presti would get fired if he let two MVP-type talents walk out on him in two consecutive summers without getting anything from them, especially with Westbrook who is almost guaranteed to leave for a bigger market somewhere.

I have no doubt they are hearing offers. I have no doubt that in earnest, Presti doesn't want (and probably cant afford) to lose another big fish for nothing. But, if you are Presti, how do you sell your fans on the slop that you are going to get back knowing that any team that trades for this fella is going to be worried that he bolts after year 1 (which is likely, unless its the Lakers or Clippers)? If you are another (non LA) team, what the hell can you really offer? Presti is going to Danny Ainge the **** out of Westbrook, push for top dollar, and maybe ultimately deal him for two stale cookies and lottery spin, but I think the fans are disappointed either way.

You're not going to get slop back. He's an MVP-level talent, and even with his contract situation, he's going to bring you two or more excellent picks or prospects back. The going rate is going to be something like Russell and Ingram or Smart and Brown or Brown and a Brooklyn pick, etc. That gives them an excellent core to build around their next team, especially after their acquiring of Oladipo and Sabonis.

That just made me gag and puke up a little.

If some other idiot GM wants to give up that much for a one-year rental of Westbrook, more power to them.  I'm sure there might be some GM somewhere that is as dumb as a freaking post and who might do that.

I hope to god Danny is not that guy.  I don't believe he is.

I mean, that's assuming that Westbrook will leave next summer. I don't think any GM is going to trade for Westbrook without thinking that they have at least a decent shot of re-signing him.

Surely you don't agree that if they ended up keeping Westbrook long term that a Smart and Brown trade for him is an overpay. I'm Smart's biggest defender on here, but you trade that package every day for an MVP-type talent in Westbrook.

It's just not ever going to happen.  And it isn't about how 'great' Westbrook is or not.

First of all, as has been pointed out a million times.  An extension is not going to happen.  So you are left with asking about a promise to sign an contract after he becomes a free agent.  And unless you are an LA team, he isn't likely to give you that promise.   What's in it for Westbrook to give you that promise is Bird Rights contract terms, should he honor it, but while that's worth a lot (several million), it pales compared to the overall jump in package he's going to get as a FA anyway, whether he signs with Bird Rights or not (tens and tens of millions) and the simple freedom, for the first time in an NBA players career, to decide where he is going to live and work.   He might not give that promise to even an LA team, but they at least have to feel like they have a chance to get a positive answer, given how vested RW is in LA on a personal level.

I expect the chance that Westbrook gives a positive answer to the question to Boston to be pretty close to zero, which is the chance Boston will be trading such a package for Westbrook so hypothesizing whether a package of Smart+Brown+salary matching (Amir) would be worth one year of Westbrook plus the chance to pay him a giant max contract is just speculative fantasy.  He's also an upgrade at the wrong position, forcing the need to then move IT to get an upgrade somewhere else.  Again, it doesn't matter how good you think he might be, he just doesn't line up as a good trade target for Boston at all.   I'm a big advocate that you should mostly ignore needs and fit when it comes to drafting, but trades and FA signings are all about needs and fit.  Your trade is disruptive on many levels.  It would make more sense to exchange a package around IT for a package around RW.  But that probably ends up just as disruptive to make work.

Which leaves the consideration of whether Russell + Ingram might be worth it for LAL.  LAL might actually be able to secure a promise to sign a long-term contract.  And it's true that trading for RW now would secure his Bird Rights for LAL, enabling him to sign a 5-year Bird Rights contract, marrying them together for years to come.  And he's not disruptive to their roster.   But if I were the Lakers, if I really believe that Westbrook would want to sign there, I don't do that trade.  Why give up Ingram when you don't have to?  Adding Westbrook _now_ doesn't do the Lakers one bit of good.  All it would accomplish to trade for him now would be to make them have a somewhat better W/L record.  Which would climb them out of being one of the 3 worst teams.  Which would put their 2017 draft pick, which is top-3 protected but otherwise belongs to Philly at risk.

If I were the Lakers, I wait.  I keep Ingram & Russell for now.  I tank one more year, protecting my pick.  I then use all my cap space to buy Westbrook next summer, plus whatever other good free agents I can buy and I trade some of my many young players that I've accumulated (i.e., Russell, Randle, etc.) for a decent veteran or two and immediately at least climb back to 'respectable', denying Philly a top pick.

So, again, I don't see why it would be in LA's interest to trade your proposed package for him either.

Whether you think Westbrook as  a basketball player has more 'value' than either package is irrelevant and not worth arguing over.  They are both bad trades for the receiving teams.

They're only bad trades if he would leave. You can't argue otherwise until you know if he stays or not.

And though I thought he was almost a certainty to go to LA pre-free agency, they ruined their cap space for next year with their contracts for Mozgov, Deng, and Clarkson. They no longer have room for two (or even three) max contracts next year, which was the major drawing point of Westbrook going there, in addition to being from there. He could certainly go to the Clips, though their future is also questionable at the moment. I think he'll seriously consider other places next summer in addition to LA, though I'm not saying Boston would in that group.

So I do think a trade for Westbrook to get his Bird Rights would go a long way in getting him there. He'd have multiple reasons to go there then, even if they're not going to be a title contender. Granted, I wouldn't give both Ingram AND Russell for him. I'd probably give up both Russell and Randle or even Russell and a future pick, though.

But as it stands after their crazy contracts they gave out this summer, I absolutely don't think it's a lock that he goes to the Lakers. If they would've kept their cap space open for next summer, I think it would've been a lock since he would've essentially been able to build that team around him before signing.

Deng, Clarkson and Mozgov are all going to be tradable mid-range contracts after next year's cap hits.   LA is probably hope to combine their contracts with the rookie contracts of their young 'stars' and/or next year's pick to make moves, probably hoping that some mid-market team will have buyer's remorse soon enough in this new cap world.   Whether you share their confidence or not doesn't really matter.

Nothing is a lock.  He certainly might end up going to some other team than the Lakers.  But I would still place the probability that he goes there as a hell of a lot higher than that he commits to anywhere else.   

And the fact is, it's pretty clear that he's going to go.  He's not going to stay in OKC.   That means the Bird Rights aren't as important to him as freedom to move is.

So our having his Bird Rights isn't necessarily going to make him want to stay here any more than it is making him want to stay in OKC.

Unless we are a destination that he already was ready and willing and wanting to go to _without_ having his Bird Rights, then it makes no sense to give up valuable assets just to get them.  But by that argument, he would be willing to come here anyway.  So why are you giving up those assets?  All you've accomplished then, is to get him a year early.   And unless you really think the value of having him a year early is worth giving up those assets, it isn't.

Is replacing Smart and Brown with Westbrook for this coming season going to win us a title?

If you really think he could be convinced to sign here as a FA, then you keep your assets and just sign him next year.